2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[JSR]

Back in May 2010, I did an analysis of the logos and ends of the pieces of duct tape, etc., and concluded that the order went like this:

Q66 (gas can)

then 1 or more missing pieces

Q62 (somewhere on lower skull area--long piece and missing apparent mouth print and bulge that could be chin seen on other pieces--perhaps across nose?)

then POSSIBLE missing pieces but not necessarily

Q104 (animal-damaged piece with fringe hairs--might have been around wrists/arms--original length uncertain)

Q64 (bottom piece across mouth)

Q63 (top piece across mouth)

So...perhaps George left the piece on the gas can in the shed any time before June 16--days, months, who knows (Casey didn't take it until June 23)--then there are missing pieces that could have been used for any household task, got stuck to each other when being removed by Casey, whatever--then Casey started by putting the first piece over Caylee's nose--then Caylee started fighting back and Casey restrained her wrists and arms with 2 pieces (missing piece and Q104)--then Casey finished up with 2 pieces across the mouth.

To keep on topic, my point is that the order of the tape allows for a missing piece right next to Q104 which could account for the stain in the trunk showing 2 dark bands across the arms/wrists instead of just one.


OH! I forgot: My other theory was that Casey used a piece before Q62 (one of the missing pieces) over Caylee's mouth, then Q62 over her nose, then Caylee was fighting back and scrunched up the mouth piece in an attempt to remove it, then Casey restrained her arms, removed the mouth piece, and replaced it with 2 new mouth pieces in an "X" formation going over the chin to make extra-double-sure Caylee could not get it off.

Either of my theories involves Caylee being awake rather than chloroformed. But I'm sure there are ways to work it out that involve chloroform also.

Wow. In order to get to sleep tonight I'm going to hope and pray your theory is wrong.

Unfortunately, I don't think it is wrong. It seems to fit rather well. Wow how scared Caylee must have been.

 

[gogrannypop]

I am so sorry your brain had to go there. :sad:

Back in May 2010, I did an analysis of the logos and ends of the pieces of duct tape, etc., and concluded that the order went like this:

Q66 (gas can)

then 1 or more missing pieces

Q62 (somewhere on lower skull area--long piece and missing apparent mouth print and bulge that could be chin seen on other pieces--perhaps across nose?)

then POSSIBLE missing pieces but not necessarily

Q104 (animal-damaged piece with fringe hairs--might have been around wrists/arms--original length uncertain)

Q64 (bottom piece across mouth)

Q63 (top piece across mouth)

So...perhaps George left the piece on the gas can in the shed any time before June 16--days, months, who knows (Casey didn't take it until June 23)--then there are missing pieces that could have been used for any household task, got stuck to each other when being removed by Casey, whatever--then Casey started by putting the first piece over Caylee's nose--then Caylee started fighting back and Casey restrained her wrists and arms with 2 pieces (missing piece and Q104)--then Casey finished up with 2 pieces across the mouth.

To keep on topic, my point is that the order of the tape allows for a missing piece right next to Q104 which could account for the stain in the trunk showing 2 dark bands across the arms/wrists instead of just one.


OH! I forgot: My other theory was that Casey used a piece before Q62 (one of the missing pieces) over Caylee's mouth, then Q62 over her nose, then Caylee was fighting back and scrunched up the mouth piece in an attempt to remove it, then Casey restrained her arms, removed the mouth piece, and replaced it with 2 new mouth pieces in an "X" formation going over the chin to make extra-double-sure Caylee could not get it off.

Either of my theories involves Caylee being awake rather than chloroformed. But I'm sure there are ways to work it out that involve chloroform also.

 

[LambChop]

Back in May 2010, I did an analysis of the logos and ends of the pieces of duct tape, etc., and concluded that the order went like this:

Q66 (gas can)

then 1 or more missing pieces

Q62 (somewhere on lower skull area--long piece and missing apparent mouth print and bulge that could be chin seen on other pieces--perhaps across nose?)

then POSSIBLE missing pieces but not necessarily

Q104 (animal-damaged piece with fringe hairs--might have been around wrists/arms--original length uncertain)

Q64 (bottom piece across mouth)

Q63 (top piece across mouth)

So...perhaps George left the piece on the gas can in the shed any time before June 16--days, months, who knows (Casey didn't take it until June 23)--then there are missing pieces that could have been used for any household task, got stuck to each other when being removed by Casey, whatever--then Casey started by putting the first piece over Caylee's nose--then Caylee started fighting back and Casey restrained her wrists and arms with 2 pieces (missing piece and Q104)--then Casey finished up with 2 pieces across the mouth.

To keep on topic, my point is that the order of the tape allows for a missing piece right next to Q104 which could account for the stain in the trunk showing 2 dark bands across the arms/wrists instead of just one.


OH! I forgot: My other theory was that Casey used a piece before Q62 (one of the missing pieces) over Caylee's mouth, then Q62 over her nose, then Caylee was fighting back and scrunched up the mouth piece in an attempt to remove it, then Casey restrained her arms, removed the mouth piece, and replaced it with 2 new mouth pieces in an "X" formation going over the chin to make extra-double-sure Caylee could not get it off.

Either of my theories involves Caylee being awake rather than chloroformed. But I'm sure there are ways to work it out that involve chloroform also.

What if she used the chloroform and Caylee did not stay out and started screaming and kicking with just duct tape over her mouth. KC now angry takes care of the problem with more tape and more chloroform....lots of it. jmo

 

[AZlawyer]

What if she used the chloroform and Caylee did not stay out and started screaming and kicking with just duct tape over her mouth. KC now angry takes care of the problem with more tape and more chloroform....lots of it. jmo

Yes--she could have done chloroform, missing piece #1 over the mouth, Q62 over the nose, come back and found Caylee awake and having removed/scrunched up the mouth piece, then thrown out the mouth piece, then restrained the arms in two places with missing piece #2 and Q104 (LEAVING TWO BANDS ON THE STAIN IN THE TRUNK JUST TO STAY ON TOPIC ) then covered Caylee's mouth again with Q64 and Q63 in a crossed pattern.

 

[wenwe4]

Now looking at the pictures again - I am seeing Caylee's body laying on her back - legs spread apart - knees bent up. Little hand behind her back. Previously I was seeing her laying on her side - however - I am not sure now. Any thoughts?

 

[wenwe4]

Back in May 2010, I did an analysis of the logos and ends of the pieces of duct tape, etc., and concluded that the order went like this:

Q66 (gas can)

then 1 or more missing pieces

Q62 (somewhere on lower skull area--long piece and missing apparent mouth print and bulge that could be chin seen on other pieces--perhaps across nose?)

then POSSIBLE missing pieces but not necessarily

Q104 (animal-damaged piece with fringe hairs--might have been around wrists/arms--original length uncertain)

Q64 (bottom piece across mouth)

Q63 (top piece across mouth)

So...perhaps George left the piece on the gas can in the shed any time before June 16--days, months, who knows (Casey didn't take it until June 23)--then there are missing pieces that could have been used for any household task, got stuck to each other when being removed by Casey, whatever--then Casey started by putting the first piece over Caylee's nose--then Caylee started fighting back and Casey restrained her wrists and arms with 2 pieces (missing piece and Q104)--then Casey finished up with 2 pieces across the mouth.

To keep on topic, my point is that the order of the tape allows for a missing piece right next to Q104 which could account for the stain in the trunk showing 2 dark bands across the arms/wrists instead of just one.


OH! I forgot: My other theory was that Casey used a piece before Q62 (one of the missing pieces) over Caylee's mouth, then Q62 over her nose, then Caylee was fighting back and scrunched up the mouth piece in an attempt to remove it, then Casey restrained her arms, removed the mouth piece, and replaced it with 2 new mouth pieces in an "X" formation going over the chin to make extra-double-sure Caylee could not get it off.

Either of my theories involves Caylee being awake rather than chloroformed. But I'm sure there are ways to work it out that involve chloroform also.

I vividly remember your work on the duct tape and I was thinking of that when I referred to the duct tape thread earlier - brilliant!

 

[ynotdivein]

wenwe, I do know what you mean--what I notice, though, is the foot position at the bottom. IMO it's a side view with the toes curved unnaturally "up"--which I took to be caused by the pressure of the bottom of the laundry bag shaping how her foot was positioned. (This makes sense in my head but I don't feel like it's coming out right.)

...one of them isn't necessary."

A quote I can't seem to attach to its original author, but, one that comes to mind when I find myself askew to someone like my good friend JWG, with whom I'm typically in agreement. In this case my perspective on the potential stain in the trunk outline is slightly different.

ETA: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.02.16 Doc Dump: Stain on Trunk Liner


In the interest of full disclosure, this is an area where I have demonstrated less than stellar abilities. The crime scene photos held all kinds of stuff in my view that it turns out... just weren't there. :bang: So...expecting just as much to be off as on - I submit to you what I'm seeing.

On the left below is the unretouched composite image that JWG so kindly pieced together & shared :thumb:. On the right is a copy of the image I have colorized to highlight what appears to me to be the outline. I have tagged some elements of the anatomy that should help you to recognize the overall positioning. Aside from adding the color and labels I have not modified the image in any way.

A description of what I'm seeing is the body in a crouching/fetal position with the points of greatest pressure (hip, shoulder, elbow & abdomen) demonstrating the most intense white (in the original). With the body laying essentially on one side with the upper torso slightly twisted such that the chest and abdomen are lying on the carpet. The torso is lying on top of what would be the left arm (mirror image) with the elbow located just behind the small of the back and the forearm passing across the abdomen and the hand(s) indistinguishable, but, positioned in what would be the lap area. The knee would be positioned over the hole in the wheel cover and the foot positioned somewhat in an on-the-toes fashion.

In this scenario the head would be resting on the section of carpet closest to the fender (not in this image as it is only of the wheel cover). IOW...the top of the image is where the shoulders would be located.

 

[TallyHo]

wenwe, I do know what you mean--what I notice, though, is the foot position at the bottom. IMO it's a side view with the toes curved unnaturally "up"--which I took to be caused by the pressure of the bottom of the laundry bag shaping how her foot was positioned. (This makes sense in my head but I don't feel like it's coming out right.)

Oh my goodness, YNot, I had noticed the foot being curved like that, and I wondered about it but it never occurred to me that the laundry bag caused that - I think you are absolutely right!! OK, those of you who know more about these things than I do, does that mean she put her in that bag before rigor mortis set in??? Is that another indication that she was put in that bag alive or very, very shortly after death??

 

[lonetraveler]

ITA and I'm still wishing I hadn't taken a closer look at that picture. I go to bed with the chickens and get up with the chickens, but nightmares are plaguing me over this.

ETA, even though I know this is part of seeking Justice for Caylee. This made me physically sick and is keeping me awake. More so than seeing the place where my brother landed, after he was murdered and seeing the copus amount of blood that was still there a month later.

I know exactly how you feel. Until tonight I have not viewed the photos of the stain. Now, I will never forget how all of a sudden the image became so clear to me. I could easily see a tiny little girl curled up and it broke my heart. After the reality of what I was seeing hit me, I realized that I was holding my breath. I don't think I will be sleeping very well for a long time.

 

[mydailyopinions]

I have looked over the evidence photo's in this thread a million times it seems. Tonight is the first time I have truly seen what the rest of you have been seeing all this time.
My heart is broken!

 

[3doglady]

Oh my goodness, YNot, I had noticed the foot being curved like that, and I wondered about it but it never occurred to me that the laundry bag caused that - I think you are absolutely right!! OK, those of you who know more about these things than I do, does that mean she put her in that bag before rigor mortis set in??? Is that another indication that she was put in that bag alive or very, very shortly after death??

My understanding is that rigor mortis gradually dissipates 1 to 3 days after death. So I guess it could have been before or after.

 

[ynotdivein]

Rigor sets in within hours after death and relaxes within 72 hours. If I am reading correctly, the duration can be shortened by exposure to heat (i.e. the trunk of a car in June in Florida). I'm not sure whether it proceeds faster in children.

So. Theory. If KC originally wrapped Caylee only in the Pooh blanket and laid her in the trunk, for a day or two she would have had a rigid body there. IMO, when Caylee began to come out of rigor is when KC got around to thinking about her again, perhaps because the body was more relaxed and starting to roll around back there. However, Caylee is now limp among other physical changes, and she is hard to maneuver. KC, ever the resourceful one, borrows BB's shovel to help manipulate the body into the garbage bags, which she then maneuvers into the laundry bag (which was only 2 inches wider than Caylee's shoulders, so this was a tight fit). When KC picks up the laundry bag by the handles, gravity pulls Caylee's foot into the bottom curve of the bag, contributing to the imprint we are seeing.

OK, now let me change my mind. I am leaning toward Caylee being in the garbage bags from shortly after her death. I think the laundry bag came last, on shovel day (when rigor had dissipated and Caylee's foot would again have become pliable). Reasons: 1) even KC could reason out that a "bag of garbage" in the trunk is a lot less obvious than a childish form shrouded in a blanket on the off chance that someone else glanced into her trunk; and 2) if Caylee had been transferred into the garbage bags after 2.6 days wrapped only in a blanket in the trunk, that would have been an immensely messy and disgusting task and IMO there would be much more staining than we're seeing.

Thoughts? Can somebody light up the joypath beacon?

 

[TallyHo]

Rigor sets in within hours after death and relaxes within 72 hours. If I am reading correctly, the duration can be shortened by exposure to heat (i.e. the trunk of a car in June in Florida). I'm not sure whether it proceeds faster in children.

So. Theory. If KC originally wrapped Caylee only in the Pooh blanket and laid her in the trunk, for a day or two she would have had a rigid body there. IMO, when Caylee began to come out of rigor is when KC got around to thinking about her again, perhaps because the body was more relaxed and starting to roll around back there. However, Caylee is now limp among other physical changes, and she is hard to maneuver. KC, ever the resourceful one, borrows BB's shovel to help manipulate the body into the garbage bags, which she then maneuvers into the laundry bag (which was only 2 inches wider than Caylee's shoulders, so this was a tight fit). When KC picks up the laundry bag by the handles, gravity pulls Caylee's foot into the bottom curve of the bag, contributing to the imprint we are seeing.

OK, now let me change my mind. I am leaning toward Caylee being in the garbage bags from shortly after her death. I think the laundry bag came last, on shovel day. Reasons: 1) even KC could reason out that a "bag of garbage" in the trunk is a lot less obvious than a childish form shrouded in a blanket on the off chance that someone else glanced into her trunk; and 2) if Caylee had been transferred into the garbage bags after 2.6 days wrapped only in a blanket in the trunk, that would have been an immensely messy and disgusting task and IMO there would be much more staining than we're seeing.

Thoughts? Can somebody light up the joypath beacon?

I almost lit up the Joypath beacon myself!!

 

[LCoastMom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9UECWMtKeA

I had never watched that video before (Thanks C9) Anyone else notice how until JB whispered to her ICA just looked pizzed? Then she sat back and worked herself into a few sobs and frantic eye rubbing...

I wonder was she sitting there contemplating the DP (for herself) or picturing lil' Caylee with duct tape?

AZ thank you for all you've done here to find Justice for Caylee.

We've (collectively) been here together for almost 3 years, lots of kittens and false starts along the way - the jury isn't going to have that luxury - it's all written out now in black and white. They're going to need therapy to recover from what is going to be a horrendous few weeks of in your face evidence. The trunk stain and THREE pieces of duct tape being huge parts to the whole.

 

[LCoastMom]

Rigor sets in within hours after death and relaxes within 72 hours. If I am reading correctly, the duration can be shortened by exposure to heat (i.e. the trunk of a car in June in Florida). I'm not sure whether it proceeds faster in children.

So. Theory. If KC originally wrapped Caylee only in the Pooh blanket and laid her in the trunk, for a day or two she would have had a rigid body there. IMO, when Caylee began to come out of rigor is when KC got around to thinking about her again, perhaps because the body was more relaxed and starting to roll around back there. However, Caylee is now limp among other physical changes, and she is hard to maneuver. KC, ever the resourceful one, borrows BB's shovel to help manipulate the body into the garbage bags, which she then maneuvers into the laundry bag (which was only 2 inches wider than Caylee's shoulders, so this was a tight fit). When KC picks up the laundry bag by the handles, gravity pulls Caylee's foot into the bottom curve of the bag, contributing to the imprint we are seeing.

OK, now let me change my mind. I am leaning toward Caylee being in the garbage bags from shortly after her death. I think the laundry bag came last, on shovel day (when rigor had dissipated and Caylee's foot would again have become pliable). Reasons: 1) even KC could reason out that a "bag of garbage" in the trunk is a lot less obvious than a childish form shrouded in a blanket on the off chance that someone else glanced into her trunk; and 2) if Caylee had been transferred into the garbage bags after 2.6 days wrapped only in a blanket in the trunk, that would have been an immensely messy and disgusting task and IMO there would be much more staining than we're seeing.

Thoughts? Can somebody light up the joypath beacon?

I agree, she was bagged from the beginning for all the reasons you stated. I think I remember reading that young children don't always have rigor or if they do it is not always full on like an adult. I'll see if I can find a link.

ETA: Many infant and child corpses will not exhibit perceptible rigor mortis. This decreased perceptible stiffness may be due to their smaller muscle mass.

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

 

[3doglady]

Rigor sets in within hours after death and relaxes within 72 hours. If I am reading correctly, the duration can be shortened by exposure to heat (i.e. the trunk of a car in June in Florida). I'm not sure whether it proceeds faster in children.

So. Theory. If KC originally wrapped Caylee only in the Pooh blanket and laid her in the trunk, for a day or two she would have had a rigid body there. IMO, when Caylee began to come out of rigor is when KC got around to thinking about her again, perhaps because the body was more relaxed and starting to roll around back there. However, Caylee is now limp among other physical changes, and she is hard to maneuver. KC, ever the resourceful one, borrows BB's shovel to help manipulate the body into the garbage bags, which she then maneuvers into the laundry bag (which was only 2 inches wider than Caylee's shoulders, so this was a tight fit). When KC picks up the laundry bag by the handles, gravity pulls Caylee's foot into the bottom curve of the bag, contributing to the imprint we are seeing.

OK, now let me change my mind. I am leaning toward Caylee being in the garbage bags from shortly after her death. I think the laundry bag came last, on shovel day (when rigor had dissipated and Caylee's foot would again have become pliable). Reasons: 1) even KC could reason out that a "bag of garbage" in the trunk is a lot less obvious than a childish form shrouded in a blanket on the off chance that someone else glanced into her trunk; and 2) if Caylee had been transferred into the garbage bags after 2.6 days wrapped only in a blanket in the trunk, that would have been an immensely messy and disgusting task and IMO there would be much more staining than we're seeing.

Thoughts? Can somebody light up the joypath beacon?

If Caylee was put in the trash bags first I don't think the stain would have been as visible. Seems to me that she was wrapped in the blanket first, then after decomp fluids leaked into the trunk, KC put her in the trash bags.

 

[ynotdivein]

Also, if she were placed in the garbage bag shortly after death/pre-rigor, that could also have affected the positioning of the feet in the same way as the laundry bag would. The foot would have gone through rigor in that position, and would not likely have shifted much if all KC did was reach in, drag the two garbage bags out by their handles, and either drop the garbage bags into the laundry bag upright, or "scoot" the laundry bag up over the garbage bags from the bottom up...

(BTW, thanks to all posters who suggest that these images are Caylee speaking to us from beyond the grave. These are horrible images and horrible things to think about--it's overwhelming at times until I remind myself that Caylee wanted this to come out, and needs this all to be understood.)

ETA: 3doglady, I know what you mean, and had trouble wrapping my head around that too, until I read USARDOG's story of what happened when s/he bagged a dead possum in two trash bags and left them on the concrete in a fairly sunny spot for a couple of days--apparently there was a possum "Shroud of Turin" left on the concrete and details were visible down to the eye.... I've come to believe that we are seeing a carpet version of the same process (though I have zero understanding of the science that would cause such an image transfer).

 

[ynotdivein]

I have lit the :hero: joypath beacon!

 

[wenwe4]

I have a random question . . . could chloroform have something to do with the image imprint? I have a visceral memory of toners and fix scents from making prints and negatives in my highschool photography class (wow - really am aging myself here). Could the chloroform act as a fixative agent on the decomp stain (shroud of Turin) image?

 

[ynotdivein]

I have a random question . . . could chloroform have something to do with the image imprint? I have a visceral memory of toners and fix scents from making prints and negatives in my highschool photography class (wow - really am aging myself here). Could the chloroform act as a fixative agent on the decomp stain (shroud of Turin) image?

DH the ex-chemist says that "chloroform's volatility makes it an unlikely candidate for a fixative agent." (He followed this up with, "Has joypath gotten back to you yet?" He's learning, is DH.)