2011.06.06 TRIAL Day Eleven (Afternoon Session)

[Sleuths4Me]

So sad listening to the story of the positive control from MT:tears:

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Lol, JA can pronounce the Greek name! Score!

Yes, it's this silly little thing called "research prior to trial"

 

[zoey]

Seriously considering driving to Orlando to kiss Jeff Ashton.

please bring him some cough drops.......and considering?????? aren't you in your car yet???????:great::fence:

 

[Capri]

Can someone who is an attorney please explain to me (I have a Juris Doctorate, don't practice) why the Defense would keep this witness on there for this length of time? When I did my clinical internship with the Travis County DA's office, an assistant DA told me, "If you can't draw first blood then BACK off."

B/c JB only plays by his own rules, and no one tells him how to do anything.

 

[Soulmagent]

Didnt WSers compare the montana case to Caylee's case?

The mom was living in the car with the childs body and an older child?

 

[kantoo]

Absolutely no reaction from Casey about another case of a little child being in the trunk for 3 months.

...allegedly she's "been there, done that", imo

 

[smart blonde]

I remember the Montana case Ashton just referenced- I read about it here at Websleuths.

The mother was Native American & drove around with her dead toddler in the trunk of her car for three months.

 

[okiedokietoo]

JA: does either - blustar or Febreez contain chloroform
Dr. Vass: No

JA: did you see any evidence of hamburger on anything you looked at
Dr Vass: no


Dr Vass: never studied child, adult decomposing in trunk of car before - positive control Montana case - child wrapped in blanket left in trunk for 3 months

JA: test Montana case for chloroform
Dr Vass: no chloroform in that case

 

[MissDiva]

You know, for someone who I don't think is a physicist or a chemist (did anyone get a chance to ask Dr. Vass that?), he's pretty freaking informed and intelligent.

 

[Miaa]

Overruled :rocker:
30 seconds later---------

Overruled :great:

 

[Capri]

Yes, it's this silly little thing called "research prior to trial"

you mean like the correct spelling of IORN and Mag? LOL

 

[sleutherontheside]

didn't JB bring up the flouride issue himself during Frye?

 

[mombomb]

REDIRECT Examination of Dr. Vass by JA -

Scientific curiosity has governed his work rather than financial. The last 20 years of his career has centered around the chemistry of decomp. He does not feel he has a financial interest in this case.

He recalled his depo by JB in 2010. He had to confer with someone else regarding the procedures of the royalties at the time his depo was taken. He had no interest in that. He found out afterwards.

In seeking a control sample of carpet, he tried to find the most contaminated carpet he could. That is a reason for going to the junkyard.

Odor diffusion relates to a process going from higher concentration to lower concentration of chemicals. That is the significance of finding the point source of the odor. The spare tire cover carpet sample had the highest concentration. He thinks Mike Vincent sent him the MDS on Blue Star and he looked up the MDS on Fabreeze. They must consult an MDS. Neither Blue Star nor Fabreeze contain chloroform.

Meat - fatty acids. The meat would have to be raw, high fat, mammal, big enough to make stain found. It would have to be decomposing in an anerobic environment.

So - a couple pounds of hamburger, wrapped in a bag, sealed, left in a trunk of a car to rot with bacteria normally found in a human body - this MAY cause. Couldn't be caused by someone eating a hamburger and wiping their face. He did not see any traces of hamburger.

Staphalopolis study - a one time examination of 2 bodies, floating the Med. Sea. He knows there was quite a lot of overlap in the compounds they each found.

Regarding the positive control - since they had never studied a human decomposing in the trunk of a car before, they looked for a control. They were able to find another case in Montana where a 3 year old had died and was left in a blanket in the trunk of a car for three months. The point of this control was to confirm that compounds such as we saw in this trunk that were consistent with human decomp could be formed in this type of environment.

This car and the positive control had 4 compounds in common. Chloroform was found in this car and not in the control.

The Montana blanket did not have fluorinated compounds, but ICA car did. Adults produce a number of fluorinated compounds. It is assumed - JB objected - overruled.

It is assumed the fluorinated compounds accumulate in a body over time. Then when you die and decompose, this is converted to fluorinated compounds. If you go to t a country that does not fluorinate their water, you don't see these levels.

In a small child, it is assumed that enough time has not passed for the accumulation of fluorinated compounds for it to show up in decomp process. Same in Montana case.

No further questions by JA.

 

[ami]

I've read about Vass and divining rods and I think it's not something that makes me feel comfortable about an expert witness.

He showed data. Good thing that was what was being presented for evaluation. If his hobby is the worst thing about his professional credibility, he's in better shape than most of my colleagues!

 

[anb]

This poor man has been on the stand all.day.long. I feel so bad for him!

 

[fifteen89]

And how long did JA take? Well done.

 

[rosepetal1065]

Sending Dr.Vass a "mental" drink after this day, on the stand. Something brown on the rocks and strong

 

[gibby207]

Take me with so Judge can give me a piggy-back ride!! lol

 

[wenwe4]

divining rod are antennas locate ....can use wire coat hangar ...if right material.....hobby of Dr. V....just like stamp collecting.....challenged to crediblity offered a million dollars? object- sustain attempted to put electronic leashes on flies object sustained.....

what you are testifying to today first time database entred into court of law....i don't know if someone has another database...

your findings not accepted in general scientific community object-sustain


Dr. Stephanopolis - looked @ bodies....4 or 5 compound he didn't find chloroform....he is in Greece - in entire world only person who agrees with your findings is this guy in Greece? A gentle man in Greece agrees with you - he used entire bodies others only look @ tissue...he was looking @ a single time point ....we were looking @ 4-5 year study.


JB back @ table....testify smell of human decomp is unique....to Dr. V it is....
Knoxville news on 12/4/08 smells like a potato gone bad....very similar to human decomp...believe he made that statement...actually looked @ potato chemical composition...... JB consults w/DS....

one key markers of human decomp is fluoride....a fluoride compound ...didn't find any in this case.....positive control....object - sustain.....positive control - blanket from body of a child in trunk of car...don't know how collected/stored any controls....

of 30 key markers....twist things around a tad

eliminate gas and floride compounds....only seen late in decomp....leaves 10 compounds leaves 8 of them.....80%....from items Dr. V didn't collect trunk sample, air, blanket, samples @ junkyard....have no idea of their history and makeup - chemical analysis of makeup done....

what was in trunk of pontiac sunfire in 10 yrs in Florida...don't know chemical makeup of was junkyard samples....we tested those....dont know history of car from Montana sample ....child in that case wrapped in blanket ...blanket was stained....not a control....thank goodness don't find a lot of kids in trunk....

very first time conducted sample on carpet sample....wonderful thing about forensic science is every sample is unique.


JB checks w'/DS 0 going over papers....

JB not a member of american academy of sciences
member of american...board

not member of any professional organizations....no and background is so diverse don't know which one to join.....think outside the box.....consider more an explorer in science? object- sustained


JA - which would you say governs career - scientific curiosity or money....scientific curiousity...

inquisition? deposition taken 12/22/10 patent issues and royalty issues....unfortuantely - had to refer to someone else had no understanding of the procedures....never had an interest in it...had to go and ask people for education of that in order to answer question today...control carpet....tried to find most contaminated sample you could...contaminated sample reason to go to junkyard....talked about diffusion....odor diffusion...process where chemical goes from higher concentrations to lower concentrations piece of plastics one with compound X with parts per trillion and one with parts per million - that one could never contaminate the other.....

bluestar & febreze- looked up msds - sent to him - Dr. V loooked up Febreze..before use any chemical in Nat. Lab must look @ msds ...neither bluestar nor febreeze contained chloroform...

volitile fatty acids in paper towels....give scenario

raw meat, uncooked, high fat not butterfat or milk, from mammel, sufficie3nt size to create stain found in trunk of car....object - overrule

probably be anaerobic - with certain type of bacteria found wihtin human body

couple pounds of raw high fat hamburger wrapped in bag, bacteria found ....couldn't be caused by someone eating a hamburger...any evidence of hamburger? No No

DT asked about Dr. Stephanopolis...2 bodies floating in Mediterranian sea....compounds he found ....among the 470 you found...you found additional ones....significant overlap...

positive control - decomp human in trunk of a car...looked around for one....an adult was not a good comparison....found a child wrapped in blanket in trunk of car 3y/o for 3 months. - unfortunate but used this data compounds

5 compounds 4 were formed and other one was chloroform....

floridated compounds - test 3 y/o in Montana - not present - opinion (object- overrule) floridated compounds ...fluorine....assumed that florinated compounds accumulate in human body over process accumulate in body much like lead paint chips eat a lot there will accumulate more.....florinated water compounds....in Brussels you don't see these compounds in the body decomp...small child assumed child maybe drank water but not enough time passed to accumulate enough fluoride to show up.....consistent with other countries that don't fluroidate their water..

 

[ziggy]

In regards to LKB...saw her on InSessions...she stated that Dr. V. did not go far enough with his comparison between KC's car and the standard example(junkyard car)...LKB says Dr. Vass should have compared 1,000 cars with KC's.

Yup Linda, let the state buy 999 more cars...*eyeroll*... is she a nutcase?

She is such a fact spinner! She also said that the box with the carpet had been opened in court and there was no smell...nobody called her on the fact that the offending stain had been cut out. Apparently she did the deposition of Dr. Vass. She also said she feels so bad, like the DT are her babies and she needs to help them. PUHLEEZ. She will do anything for a buck. Phil Spector, LKB, Phil Spector...you have no credibility sorry.