2012.05.17 Doc Dump Thread

[jjenny]

Me too.

No autopsy could show who started the fight. It's amazing what lengths people will go to to attempt to prove a point. I'm laughing too.

While it doesn't show who started the fight, it does show that Zimmerman did not beat up Trayvon, as Trayvon had no injuries to his face. Whereas Zimmerman did have injuries.
The fight appears to have been one sided.

 

[wowitsdark]

While it would be most insensitive for a white kid to put on a sheet and walk through a black neighborhood under any circumstances, considering the history of the KKK, I see no comparison in that and Trayvon Martin walking through George Zimmerman's neighborhood.
IMO the costume which Trayvon Martin was wearing and the costume which seems to so have offended Mr. Zimmerman is the costume with which Mr. Martin was born----his black skin. IMO it cost TM his life.

Except that it was not limited to his attire. In fact, nothing in GZ's words indicates that TM's attire or skin color made him suspicious.

He notes that it is raining and the person he sees is walking around in a way that makes him suspect that he might be on drugs or something.

It was the behavior that made GZ take notice of him.

Behavior that was not illegal by any stretch of the word, but that was unusual.

He was walking around near the clubhouse. Was the clubhouse open? Or is it only something people book for parties? If it was night time and the clubhouse was locked up, seeing a person walking around it in the dark during a rainstorm might seem odd or unusual.

 

[wowitsdark]

So in the process of CPR, the can came out of Trayvon's pocket?

I wonder how it managed to stay in his pocket during this life or death scuffle....doesn't make sense to me.

JMO

It might depend on the angle of his pocket opening.

If the reports that TM was on top of GZ are accurate, the weight of the can itself might have been 'gravitized' (Made that word up!) downward, forcing it deeper in his pocket.

During CPR he would have been on his back, an angle at which it might have more easily slid out.

 

[Lovelymountains]

Jumping off of this comment here, has there been any proof shown that GZ continued to follow TM after this, or any proof that he stopped? I'm asking because I recall thinking I heard GZ answer the 911 operator with "ok". It's been awhile since I listened to the tape so I could be wrong but almost swear I heard that.

Also, didn't GZ say he was on his way to Target when this happened? If so, it makes having a gun on neighborhood watch moot. IMO.

In actuallity GZ was told by the dispatcher, "We don't need you to do that," referring to GZ's following TM. GZ did, indeed, say, "OK." IMO the tape of the phone conversation continues to pick up GZ's heavy breathing, which could indicate he was continuing the hunt. And in fact I believe it does.
Even if GZ contends he was not carrying out his duties as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, it can't be both ways. Either he was acting as a NWV and therefore should not have been carrying a gun or following anyone, or he was not, in which case he should not have been hunting anyone down and shooting them. When he reported the person he considered "Suspicious," his duty as a citizen was at an end and he should have gone on to Target or wherever he intended to go.

 

[mikeysmommom]

While it would be most insensitive for a white kid to put on a sheet and walk through a black neighborhood under any circumstances, considering the history of the KKK, I see no comparison in that and Trayvon Martin walking through George Zimmerman's neighborhood.
IMO the costume which Trayvon Martin was wearing and the costume which seems to so have offended Mr. Zimmerman is the costume with which Mr. Martin was born----his black skin. IMO it cost TM his life.

IMO Teaching our children that walking while black will get them killed is what gives young men the attitude that it is okay to confront a person and assault them it they feel that person is dissing them. It really is amazing to me that a white child who lives in a neighborhood that also has black children living there can never be a ghost for Halloween because of a hate group that might never have ever been in their town to begin with or ever even seen by their parents.IMO that is insane I guess by the same token a black child living in that same neighborhood should never ever be able to be dressed as a black panther because whites see them the same way blacks see KKK.

 

[cityslick]

Me too.

No autopsy could show who started the fight. It's amazing what lengths people will go to to attempt to prove a point. I'm laughing too.

I don't think the state can have it that TM was beating the crap out of GZ. Not when there is no proof at this time of who started the fight. That does not help their case.

 

[Florida Native]

In actuallity GZ was told by the dispatcher, "We don't need you to do that," referring to GZ's following TM. GZ did, indeed, say, "OK." IMO the tape of the phone conversation continues to pick up GZ's heavy breathing, which could indicate he was continuing the hunt. And in fact I believe it does.
Even if GZ contends he was not carrying out his duties as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, it can't be both ways. Either he was acting as a NWV and therefore should not have been carrying a gun or following anyone, or he was not, in which case he should not have been hunting anyone down and shooting them. When he reported the person he considered "Suspicious," his duty as a citizen was at an end and he should have gone on to Target or wherever he intended to go.

But there has been no proof offered yet that he continued to follow? I understand that many people believe he did but that doesn't make it so. I'm trying very hard to stick to facts that are out there so I wanted to be sure there had been nothing released that proved one way or the other.

As far as NW, if he was going to Target, I see nothing wrong with him carrying. He was doing it legally. While I wouldn't necessarily personally have tried to follow a stranger to see where they were headed, once again I don't believe it is illegal to do so.

 

[jjenny]

The logic seemed to be used by the prosecution side that if he had stayed in his car this wouldn't have happened. After this document dump, this theory appears to be pretty much what the prosecution case consists of.
While that is true, there are a lot of horrible things that are avoidable, yet happen. Not all these things are crimes.
What does it have to do with an actual law? FL law says Zimmerman had a right to stand his ground if he was in a place he can legally be. He can legally be in his gated community. He is not breaking any laws by being in his gated community.
Not illegal for GZ to follow someone to ask them a question.
His gun was legal.
And unfortunately people get into avoidable situations day in and day out.

 

[LambChop]

The logic seemed to be used by the prosecution side that if he had stayed in his car this wouldn't have happened.
While that is true, there are a lot of horrible things that are avoidable, yet happen. Not all these things are crimes.
What does it have to do with an actual law? FL law says Zimmerman had a right to stand his ground if he was in a place he can legally be. He can legally be in his gated community. He is not breaking any laws by being in his gated community.
Not illegal for GZ to follow someone to ask them a question.
His gun was legal.
And unfortunately people get into avoidable situations day in and day out.

But how and in what way he used his gun may not have been legal.....hence the charges. jmo

 

[cityslick]

But how and in what way he used his gun may not have been legal.....hence the charges. jmo

The documents have not really went against him on that front though. The documents seem to collaborate his story that he was getting beat up.

 

[wowitsdark]

In actuallity GZ was told by the dispatcher, "We don't need you to do that," referring to GZ's following TM. GZ did, indeed, say, "OK." IMO the tape of the phone conversation continues to pick up GZ's heavy breathing, which could indicate he was continuing the hunt. And in fact I believe it does.
Even if GZ contends he was not carrying out his duties as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, it can't be both ways. Either he was acting as a NWV and therefore should not have been carrying a gun or following anyone, or he was not, in which case he should not have been hunting anyone down and shooting them. When he reported the person he considered "Suspicious," his duty as a citizen was at an end and he should have gone on to Target or wherever he intended to go.

Your statement makes every part of what occurred seem very compartmentalized, however, I don't think people live their lives in such compartmentalized ways.

*As* someone involved in something of an 'official' capacity within his neighborhood, GZ had an experience bank. This bank included intimate knowledge of the sidewalks and streets and the layout of the apartments. It included knowledge of LE's typical response time. It included an awareness of the time of day burglaries had been occurring and general descriptions of who committed them. He probably knew where there were cracks in the sidewalk and exactly how the 'step' felt when you stepped up a curb. It was *home* to him, this neighborhood where he walked his dog each night, and he was likely as comfortable walking those streets as any of us are walking down our own hallways from our bedrooms to our kitchens.

It has been stated that their neighborhood watch program was not an *official* one. I could be incorrect, but my understanding is that the residents had just banded together and decided they needed some sort of a watch system, and GZ was either suggested as a leader or he volunteered as a leader. It looks like the neighborhood association purchased signs and cameras, but it doesn't sound like they became officially-trained members of the nationally-recognized "Neighborhood Watch" group that would have gone through training with the police department.

It looks like the PD *does* have a system in place for neighborhood watch training, but if this neighborhood had not formed that level of an alliance with the PD, I do not believe GZ can be held accountable to those standards of procedure.

Regardless... if he was on his way to Target - a legal act - and carrying a gun for which he had a permit - a legal act - and just so happened to see somebody acting suspicious, I would not expect him to go through a checklist so he could go 'on duty' as a watchman before engaging in visual surveillance of his own neighborhood.

He's *not* a paid police officer or anything of the sort. He's just a guy.

 

[gxm]

LMAO

So the autopsy report shows who started the fight? LMAO

Like Concerned Papa said in the post you responded to, it just shows that GZ got his azz handed to him by a 17 year old..

How does those injuries show GZ was attacked by surprise? LMAO

I guess...

Still LMAO.

I guess you've never been sucker punched. I have. It gives your attacker the advantage. (Not that mine needed one as a 10-year could take me down.) I was unable to get my bearings, defend myself or break free after the first punch. My SIL had the same thing happen to him, sucker punched in a bar. Unlike me, he is a large person and packs a powerful punch but he went down hard, breaking his ankle, game over.

If GZ had started the fight, i.e., thrown the first punch, then TM would have had some mark on him. And, FTR, if GZ had his "azz handed to him" then you are making the defense's case. GZ was physically attacked by TM and in fear for his life: self defense.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

 

[LambChop]

But there has been no proof offered yet that he continued to follow? I understand that many people believe he did but that doesn't make it so. I'm trying very hard to stick to facts that are out there so I wanted to be sure there had been nothing released that proved one way or the other.

As far as NW, if he was going to Target, I see nothing wrong with him carrying. He was doing it legally. While I wouldn't necessarily personally have tried to follow a stranger to see where they were headed, once again I don't believe it is illegal to do so.

GZ was in his car. How did he get from his car to where TM was? GZ lived on the other side of the community. Those condos are not his property. He was not on "public property". He had no authority to follow anyone whether it's legal or not. No one gave him the authority to follow someone within the community within the common areas. No one. His only responsibility involved calling it in. He had no business following a visitor who was staying in a condo within the community. He called LE.....he was done. jmo

 

[Isabelle]

Sry, but didn't think this was a discussion thread. I get carried away too.

OOps, screwed up. Sry.

 

[Isabelle]

Has it been documented that GZ had a broken nose, or is the implication still that it was possible, based on medical document. BTW had the full medical document for GZ been released, including EMT/Rescue workers information?

 

[cityslick]

GZ was in his car. How did he get from his car to where TM was? GZ lived on the other side of the community. Those condos are not his property. He was not on "public property". He had no authority to follow anyone whether it's legal or not. No one gave him the authority to follow someone within the community within the common areas. No one. His only responsibility involved calling it in. He had no business following a visitor who was staying in a condo within the community. He called LE.....he was done. jmo

How have you proved he caused the confrontation?

Nobody has seemed to answer this question.

 

[vlpate]

GZ was in his car. How did he get from his car to where TM was? GZ lived on the other side of the community. Those condos are not his property. He was not on "public property". He had no authority to follow anyone whether it's legal or not. No one gave him the authority to follow someone within the community within the common areas. No one. His only responsibility involved calling it in. He had no business following a visitor who was staying in a condo within the community. He called LE.....he was done. jmo

He was entitled to go anywhere he pleased on the property, as was Trayvon. He was allowed to watch whomever he felt like watching, as could Trayvon. What is unlawful is to attack someone because of either of those two things. Unlawful and dangerous. There's no doubt who attacked whom, and if there is, I don't know anymore what to say to that.

 

[LambChop]

I guess you've never been sucker punched. I have. It gives your attacker the advantage. (Not that mine needed one as a 10-year could take me down.) I was unable to get my bearings, defend myself or break free after the first punch. My SIL had the same thing happen to him, sucker punched in a bar. Unlike me, he is a large person and packs a powerful punch but he went down hard, breaking his ankle, game over.

If GZ had started the fight, i.e., thrown the first punch, then TM would have had some mark on him. And, FTR, if GZ had his "azz handed to him" then you are making the defense's case. GZ was physically attacked by TM and in fear for his life: self defense.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

GZ goal, as he indicated in his 911 was to detain. To keep TM from getting away. Why else call LE???? I do not think it was ever GZ's intention to get into a fight but it was his intention to keep TM from getting away and the minute TM started to move away, I believe GZ reacted by grabbing TM. That would account for GZ's injuries and TM's lack of them. It's possible they were not fighting but merely they fell and TM was trying to get away and GZ got hurt in the process. I think TM was shot because GZ had had enough and shot him. I think it was that simple. That would explain the witness saying she saw them running. jmo

 

[mikeysmommom]

Interesting little story but what does it have to do with the subject at hand?
I don't think your experiences at a camp in the Poconos have anything to do with the death of TM. I'm glad you have no prejudice against African-Americans, but I doubt GZ could tell such a charming little story. Maybe you are saying "Some of my best friends are black?" I believe that's what GZ's family was contending with their claims of GZ handing out flyers.

ETA You found my story charming? I was scared to death when 10 girls jumped on me hitting and pulling my hair for no reason I was 7 and did nothing wrong to any of them.I guess I was jumped while being white,and IYO that s charming.Of course if I am on GZ side I must be a racist.

My point which I guess got lost was that as a child if my mother told me they beat me up because of my skin color and I was told repeatedly by my family members who I trusted I would have believed them and it would most likely have made me have a bad attitude against all people who were black.IMO When a black family instills in their child white people hate us so much you will get shot for walking just because you are black IMO instead of helping it actually causes teens to feel justified to assault someone esp if they feel they are being watched by someone who happens to be white when in reality it is someone who might be watching them just because they are just a teenager and a lot of teens do rob houses, do use drugs, do run off with a younger kids bike,might break a window and so on.IMO it is more because of them just being in the age group that are doing things they should not be.I was taught to treat others how I wanted to be treated and that every thing I do in life will have a consequence good or bad that was up to me.

 

[wowitsdark]

GZ was in his car. How did he get from his car to where TM was? GZ lived on the other side of the community. Those condos are not his property. He was not on "public property". He had no authority to follow anyone whether it's legal or not. No one gave him the authority to follow someone within the community within the common areas. No one. His only responsibility involved calling it in. He had no business following a visitor who was staying in a condo within the community. He called LE.....he was done. jmo

Just curious, as I do not live in a community like that one, but are the sidewalks not considered public property? And the streets, as well?

GZ's awareness of TM began when he was near the clubhouse. While that is not property that I would presume is open to the public at large, it is surely property of the neighborhood association, to which GZ belongs.

And must one be granted 'authority' by an outside agency to follow another person? Or to walk along a sidewalk behind another person? Or to watch another person who is in public?

If GZ was on 'private property' that he did not own... so was TM.

I guess I do not understand the point you are trying to make.