2015.12.04 DCF Hearing today (Friday) - continued to Monday

[Frigga]

Nope. Not exactly “Wanting a sex offender as his children's guardian”
Per news reports: “the husband of the female he proposed as guardian had been accused of sexual abuse”
Difference between “sex offender” and “accused of sexual abuse”
It could be the person “accused of sexual abuse” is innocent and that the accusations were false and/or unfounded. Who knows? I don’t.
I’m hoping to minimize exaggeration of misinformation.

http://www.abc-7.com/story/30685282/judge-to-decide-fate-of-sievers-girls
LEE COUNTY - Judge Lee A. Schreiber ruled Monday that the two daughters of Mark and Teresa Sievers not be removed from their father's custody in the wake of his alleged involvement in his wife's June murder.
Schreiber said Monday that the Department of Children and Families did not prove the children were in imminent danger.
The ruling followed an argument by Mark Sievers' representatives that not enough evidence existed that the children were unsafe with him.
DCF argued that Mark Sievers' custody plan for the children, if he's arrested, is not appropriate -- claiming that the husband of the female he proposed as guardian had been accused of sexual abuse -- and that the girls could be in danger if they stayed with their father.

http://www.winknews.com/2015/12/04/case-regarding-custody-of-sievers-children-continued-to-monday/

I remember this from the time it was happening- it was a "verified sexual abuse report" and I remember AZ explaining exactly what it meant and it was NOT just an allegation. Even if I can locate her explanation I don't think I'm allowed to bring it over from a different thread. From the article:

"Mark Sievers made custody arrangements in case of his incarceration, but the person he chose was denied due to having a verified sexual abuse report, Allain said. She added that the department has a plan in place for the children in case of his arrest."

Alain is from the DCFS.

 

[Bobbywoo]

http://www.winknews.com/2015/12/04/case-regarding-custody-of-sievers-children-continued-to-monday/

I remember this from the time it was happening- it was a "verified sexual abuse report" and I remember AZ explaining exactly what it meant and it was NOT just an allegation. Even if I can locate her explanation I don't think I'm allowed to bring it over from a different thread. From the article:

"Mark Sievers made custody arrangements in case of his incarceration, but the person he chose was denied due to having a verified sexual abuse report, Allain said. She added that the department has a plan in place for the children in case of his arrest."

Alain is from the DCFS.

Now this wording confused me. Verified sexual abuse and verified sexual abuse report mean two different things to me. Anyone can make a report right? I've seen people claim some pretty rotten things about another during custody or divorce battles. And before I get blasted.... I think one should always believe the victim first and investigate thoroughly before saying no crime was committed.

 

[Frigga]

Now this wording confused me. Verified sexual abuse and verified sexual abuse report mean two different things to me. Anyone can make a report right? I've seen people claim some pretty rotten things about another during custody or divorce battles. And before I get blasted.... I think one should always believe the victim first and investigate thoroughly before saying no crime was committed.

My recollection was that verified in those circumstances means substantiated. I think that is pretty self explanatory. Hopefully AZ or Creepingskills or someone knowledgeable will weigh in here.

 

[Deleted member 159541]

Unfortunately, MS has to be convicted for Teresa's will to become the authority related to the children (part of the Florida slayer statute I believe). However, the family can fight for custody if he is arrested. They can also bring a wrongful death suit and depending on the outcome use that as fodder for a custody case. Pray for an arrest and conviction.

Correction: the authority in Florida regarding her will can be found in the slayer statute. The authority as it relates custody can be found in the language concerning termination of parental rights. However, the slayer statute does say that Teresa's will becomes the authority related to all of her estate (Statute 732.802)

(1) A surviving person who unlawfully and intentionally kills or participates in procuring the death of the decedent is not entitled to any benefits under the will or under the Florida Probate Code, and the estate of the decedent passes as if the killer had predeceased the decedent. Property appointed by the will of the decedent to or for the benefit of the killer passes as if the killer had predeceased the decedent.

 

[fldigger]

My recollection was that verified in those circumstances means substantiated. I think that is pretty self explanatory. Hopefully AZ or Creepingskills or someone knowledgeable will weigh in here.

if i remember correctly from listening to commentary, the story was that MS had made custody arrangements with some person but it had been shown that someone in the same house had a sexual abuse history.

 

[fldigger]

Unfortunately, MS has to be convicted for Teresa's will to become the authority related to the children (part of the Florida slayer statute I believe). However, the family can fight for custody if he is arrested. They can also bring a wrongful death suit and depending on the outcome use that as fodder for a custody case. Pray for an arrest and conviction.

The slayer statutes relate to a murderer (or arranger of a murder) not being able to profit from their actions. So the life insurance money and assets will not go to MS if he is convicted. As soon as there is good probable cause shown which leads to an MS arrest I would expect TS's family to file for emergency custody. If the sole guardian is arrested then child protective services would probably take the children into care in the interim.

JMHO

 

[mom2chloe]

Unfortunately, MS has to be convicted for Teresa's will to become the authority related to the children (part of the Florida slayer statute I believe). However, the family can fight for custody if he is arrested. They can also bring a wrongful death suit and depending on the outcome use that as fodder for a custody case. Pray for an arrest and conviction.

AmazonRain, do you have any idea if TS family has filed for visitation? I'm down with the flu and have had time to read through much of the threads today and I can't help but worry about the two girls. I am concerned that MS has kept the girls from TS family for obvious reasons. I remember too well what happened with Susan Powell's boys and feel that MS, much like Josh Powell, has nothing to lose when he is eventually arrested. My heart breaks for them.

 

[Deleted member 159541]

AmazonRain, do you have any idea if TS family has filed for visitation? I'm down with the flu and have had time to read through much of the threads today and I can't help but worry about the two girls. I am concerned that MS has kept the girls from TS family for obvious reasons. I remember too well what happened with Susan Powell's boys and feel that MS, much like Josh Powell, has nothing to lose when he is eventually arrested. My heart breaks for them.

Sorry, I'm not comfortable speaking on behalf of the family. What I will say is that MS is operating the way he always has, with an unhealthy and overbearing approach to oversight of the girls (IMO). This isn't unique to the conditions post the murder of their mother by his friends, he was like this before Teresa's death.
When it comes to the girls he continues those same behaviors - they are simply now on steroids. The account that AL gave of MS blowing up at the family when they offered to shield the girls from the media circus and other pressures (after the murder) should give everyone insight into the approach MS is taking with the girls. He views the girls as property under his control. I want to also offer that in my opinion MS sees the girls as the tickets to Teresa's estate. I don't believe that anyone would contest the estate if it was being used to raise and support the girls and his custody could no longer be challenged. If anything happens to the girls the estate is likely thrown into turmoil and litigation. When MS is arrested, he will continue to have the ever present hubris and believe himself to be the smartest guy in the room. He will believe that he will not be convicted. For that reason, I don't believe he will hurt the girls. That is why I pray every day for a swift arrest and an even swifter conviction.

 

[Deleted member 159541]

The slayer statutes relate to a murderer (or arranger of a murder) not being able to profit from their actions. So the life insurance money and assets will not go to MS if he is convicted. As soon as there is good probable cause shown which leads to an MS arrest I would expect TS's family to file for emergency custody. If the sole guardian is arrested then child protective services would probably take the children into care in the interim.

JMHO

There are laws surrounding termination of parental rights in Florida that speak specifically to MS's incarceration as well as if he is convicted.

 

[AZlawyer]

http://www.winknews.com/2015/12/04/case-regarding-custody-of-sievers-children-continued-to-monday/

I remember this from the time it was happening- it was a "verified sexual abuse report" and I remember AZ explaining exactly what it meant and it was NOT just an allegation. Even if I can locate her explanation I don't think I'm allowed to bring it over from a different thread. From the article:

"Mark Sievers made custody arrangements in case of his incarceration, but the person he chose was denied due to having a verified sexual abuse report, Allain said. She added that the department has a plan in place for the children in case of his arrest."

Alain is from the DCFS.

My recollection was that verified in those circumstances means substantiated. I think that is pretty self explanatory. Hopefully AZ or Creepingskills or someone knowledgeable will weigh in here.

Normally if they use that wording it would mean that it was internally (within DCF) determined to be probably true. That doesn't mean there was a hearing, due process, cross-examination of witnesses, etc.--just that the social workers felt after talking to those involved that it was probably true.

Unfortunately, MS has to be convicted for Teresa's will to become the authority related to the children (part of the Florida slayer statute I believe). However, the family can fight for custody if he is arrested. They can also bring a wrongful death suit and depending on the outcome use that as fodder for a custody case. Pray for an arrest and conviction.

The Florida slayer statute does treat the murderer as if he had predeceased the victim for many purposes. I don't think it would apply, however, to child guardianship by a surviving parent, because MS's right to raise his children is something he had before TS's death, not a benefit he got as a result of her death.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ute&URL=0700-0799/0732/Sections/0732.802.html

 

[Timekeeper65]

Sorry, I'm not comfortable speaking on behalf of the family. What I will say is that MS is operating the way he always has, with an unhealthy and overbearing approach to oversight of the girls (IMO). This isn't unique to the conditions post the murder of their mother by his friends, he was like this before Teresa's death.
When it comes to the girls he continues those same behaviors - they are simply now on steroids. The account that AL gave of MS blowing up at the family when they offered to shield the girls from the media circus and other pressures (after the murder) should give everyone insight into the approach MS is taking with the girls. He views the girls as property under his control. I want to also offer that in my opinion MS sees the girls as the tickets to Teresa's estate. I don't believe that anyone would contest the estate if it was being used to raise and support the girls and his custody could no longer be challenged. If anything happens to the girls the estate is likely thrown into turmoil and litigation. When MS is arrested, he will continue to have the ever present hubris and believe himself to be the smartest guy in the room. He will believe that he will not be convicted. For that reason, I don't believe he will hurt the girls. That is why I pray every day for a swift arrest and an even swifter conviction.

I trust and believe everything you have stated here. I am sitting here letting these statements sink in. Not in my best interest to type what I am thinking...cause I enjoy reading and participating on these threads.

Let me just say, that boiling point I spoke of previously, the pot has boiled over.

PLEASE, anybody UP there listening?

 

[1&2&3]

I remember when this discussion about the custody of the girls and Mark's inappropriate choice if he was arrested.

Mark has so few friends that we are aware of, do we have any idea who he selected to have custody of the girls? I realize a name may not be mentioned, however, I have not been able to figure it out. It sounds like this friend he chose fits in with the other misfits in his life! IMO.

 

[concernedmother]

He must be pretty close to GS and LS if he wanted GS there when he was questioned. I wonder if he has considered seeing if they would take the girls? IIRC their kids had play dates with TS girls. We havent heard about him having many friends except for skinner and CWW. If he has more they arent speaking out defending him. BTW that is another interview that is missing. GS. jmo.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

I remember when this discussion about the custody of the girls and Mark's inappropriate choice if he was arrested.

Mark has so few friends that we are aware of, do we have any idea who he selected to have custody of the girls? I realize a name may not be mentioned, however, I have not been able to figure it out. It sounds like this friend he chose fits in with the other misfits in his life! IMO.

Maybe a family member, like a sister or something like that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[Scout]

Sorry, I'm not comfortable speaking on behalf of the family. What I will say is that MS is operating the way he always has, with an unhealthy and overbearing approach to oversight of the girls (IMO). This isn't unique to the conditions post the murder of their mother by his friends, he was like this before Teresa's death.
When it comes to the girls he continues those same behaviors - they are simply now on steroids. The account that AL gave of MS blowing up at the family when they offered to shield the girls from the media circus and other pressures (after the murder) should give everyone insight into the approach MS is taking with the girls. He views the girls as property under his control. I want to also offer that in my opinion MS sees the girls as the tickets to Teresa's estate. I don't believe that anyone would contest the estate if it was being used to raise and support the girls and his custody could no longer be challenged. If anything happens to the girls the estate is likely thrown into turmoil and litigation. When MS is arrested, he will continue to have the ever present hubris and believe himself to be the smartest guy in the room. He will believe that he will not be convicted. For that reason, I don't believe he will hurt the girls. That is why I pray every day for a swift arrest and an even swifter conviction.

How familiar are you with the Michelle Young case? I realize the laws regarding wrongful death and child custody differ from state to state, but there are some similarities that might be helpful to consider. The Nancy Cooper case (also in NC) is another one with similar circumstances. What I getting at is that it might not be necessary to wait for the arrest. In both of those case, the custody case and/or wrongful death case were actually helpful to the criminal investigation.

 

[fldigger]

(1) A surviving person who unlawfully and intentionally kills or participates in procuring the death of the decedent is not entitled to any benefits under the will or under the Florida Probate Code, and the estate of the decedent passes as if the killer had predeceased the decedent. Property appointed by the will of the decedent to or for the benefit of the killer passes as if the killer had predeceased the decedent.

Children are not property. Children are individuals with protection as individuals. The statute you quote applies to real property. Even if/when MS is on death row, the children are still his children. Guardianship and Custody are issues dealt with through entirely different statutes

 

[fldigger]

There are laws surrounding termination of parental rights in Florida that speak specifically to MS's incarceration as well as if he is convicted.

you are correct .... but that is not the slayer statute which refers to monetary/property gain.

 

[human]

I can't believe that the children would go to a friend rather than relatives!

This seems really unusual to me.

I know states are burdened with foster care costs. A friend could get foster care reimbursement. So could a relative.

I know it sounds bad, but in this case, could the relatives state they have the means to not ask for money from the state for foster care and that may impact a decision?

 

[Deleted member 159541]

Children are not property. Children are individuals with protection as individuals. The statute you quote applies to real property. Even if/when MS is on death row, the children are still his children. Guardianship and Custody are issues dealt with through entirely different statutes

Of course children are not property - please see some of my later posts. Thanks.

 

[Frigga]

I really hope the family is in the process of filing a wrongful death suit.

I was rereading the DCF emergency shelter hearing thread and recognize how it was DCF that dropped the ball and not necessarily the judge.

DCF had every right and good reason to take the girls out of the home and if you read AZLawyers post on what is necessary or what constitutes 'abuse' DCF could have done so and then called the shelter hearing. That is the normal process apparently.

Mark's control over the girls as well as his isolation of them is pathological. Keeping them from Teresa's family and friends sends up all sorts of red flags.

I am sorry for what this must be doing to you- AR. I would be hiring the best and brightest lawyer I could find to be ready to fight for them- a wrongful death suit would be a good start, IMO.

Hoping and praying that their music and theatre activities continue as well as play dates with friends.