3-28-19 SWAT team with guns drawn raids Arizona home for toddler w/fever

[katydid23]

It sounds like the fever spiked and then broke very quickly.

A couple decided not to take their feverish child to the hospital. Hours later police kicked down their door

On February 25, the mother took her 2-year-old boy to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine clinic in Tempe, according to Chandler police records.

It was dinner time. But the toddler’s fever had spiked to over 100 degrees.

Shortly after 6:30 p.m., the mother called the doctor and told her that her toddler no longer had a fever so she wasn’t taking him to the emergency room.

The parents claim that the fever had gone down was later verified by medical records.

Right. That is the defense the parents are giving. But just because the fever breaks that doesn’t mean the baby isn’t fighting a serious illness.

And in fact when the child was taken to the ER they diagnosed him with an active respiratory infection. So he needed treatment, fever or not.

 

[Breezie]

Respiratory syncytial virus - Symptoms and causes

It's so common that most children have been infected with the virus by age two.

Mayo Clinic Information:

By age 2, most children will have been infected with respiratory syncytial virus. Children who attend child care centers or who have siblings who attend school are at a higher risk of exposure. RSV season — when outbreaks tend to occur — is the fall to the end of spring.

Treatment
Treatment for respiratory syncytial virus generally involves self-care measures to make your child more comfortable (supportive care). But hospital care may be needed if severe symptoms occur.

Supportive care
Your doctor may recommend an over-the-counter medication such as acetaminophen (Tylenol, others) to reduce fever. Frequent use of nasal saline drops and suctioning can help clear a stuffy nose. Your doctor may prescribe antibiotics if there's a bacterial complication, such as bacterial pneumonia.

Keep your child as comfortable as possible. Offer plenty of fluids and watch for signs of dehydration, such as dry mouth, little to no urine output, sunken eyes, and extreme fussiness or sleepiness.


Could the diagnosis have been made at Urgent Care?

Most are open by 7 a.m.

RSV is so common, the doctor should have known about it, and given them the option to go to urgent care, since the fever was almost gone.

 

[Simply Southern]

Respiratory syncytial virus - Symptoms and causes

It's so common that most children have been infected with the virus by age two.

Mayo Clinic Information:

By age 2, most children will have been infected with respiratory syncytial virus. Children who attend child care centers or who have siblings who attend school are at a higher risk of exposure. RSV season — when outbreaks tend to occur — is the fall to the end of spring.

Treatment
Treatment for respiratory syncytial virus generally involves self-care measures to make your child more comfortable (supportive care). But hospital care may be needed if severe symptoms occur.

Supportive care
Your doctor may recommend an over-the-counter medication such as acetaminophen (Tylenol, others) to reduce fever. Frequent use of nasal saline drops and suctioning can help clear a stuffy nose. Your doctor may prescribe antibiotics if there's a bacterial complication, such as bacterial pneumonia.

Keep your child as comfortable as possible. Offer plenty of fluids and watch for signs of dehydration, such as dry mouth, little to no urine output, sunken eyes, and extreme fussiness or sleepiness.


Could the diagnosis have been made at Urgent Care?

Most are open by 7 a.m.

RSV is so common, the doctor should have known about it, and given them the option to go to urgent care, since the fever was almost gone.

Yes, the family could have gone to urgent care, however, they had NO insurance. Three kids and the mother is pregnant with the fourth. Even Urgent Care would have sent child with 105 fever to an ER, the child symptoms were pass the supportive care phase.
I didn't really understand the cost issue since mom is heavily pregnant, how was she going to pay for the delivery, was she getting prenatal care? They could afford a home surveillance system with cameras, but no insurance. This was not a fancy home, it has concrete floors.

This was so simple, all they had to do was open the door and let the DSS check to insure the fever was down. They refused to answer the door, a next door neighbor called them and they still refused to open the door. Police and DSS TOLD the father they would be back with a warrant and he STILL refused to open the door.

These folks, IMHO had "something" to hide. Clearly the were hiding something, bet the temperature was not down, messy house, the fact another child was sick- she had vomited in her bed, or the loaded shot gun beside the bed. The father agreed to drug and alcohol testing in court to become the guardian, mother DID NOT, wonder why? Could this be the reason for lack of prenatal care or why she did not want to go to a hospital.

I would love to see the information used to obtain the warrant, most LE don't get warrants signed by judges at 10 pm at night without a dang good cause.

Clearly the politician's and the DSS activists are using this as a platform for the own agenda. Now that the case has reached the media, hopefully the chilren can be assured of a safe, healthy ,violence free, drug free environment.

 

[Breezie]

The cost of an urgent care visit would be much less than the ER for someone without insurance.

The initial recommendation was based on both the wrong diagnosis and a high temp.

After the temp dropped so quickly, why would an urgent care visit not have been an option?

The drug testing might be a standard request. It does not mean they were addicts. The house is messy which might be because people were sick. There is a difference between messy and filthy. Also, one punch in the wall, does not necessarily mean that they were living in a violent household. There are a lot of assumptions being made here.

Evaluating these issues, now is good, but it is unfair to assume, that the kids are better off, without their family. The current goal is to reunite them with their family.

 

[Simply Southern]

The cost of an urgent care visit would be much less than the ER for someone without insurance.

The initial recommendation was based on both the wrong diagnosis and a high temp.

After the temp dropped so quickly, why would an urgent care visit not have been an option?

The drug testing might be a standard request. It does not mean they were addicts. The house is messy which might be because people were sick. There is a difference between messy and filthy. Also, one punch in the wall, does not necessarily mean that they were living in a violent household. There are a lot of assumptions being made here.

The Naturopath person, who is NOT an MD, suspected Meningitis. No meds, or testing was done that is why they sent to a hospital...you need a spinal tap to confirm or at least STAT blood work, not available at UC. All three children were sick throwing up.

How are they to pay for Urgent Care, they require full payment upfront. Hospitals have indigent care. Why do they not have Medicaid? Kids were 6, 4, and 2 and, mom pregnant with the fourth. They needed blood work, possible chest XRays, etc, to determine a correct diagnosis, this was NOT done at the original clinic.

Can you reference where a medical professional states the temp was down, the only thing I see is where the baby dad said the child was OK, while Police and DSS worker heard child coughing thru the door. It was reported all three children were taken to the hospital because they were all sick. When and how did they plan to treat the other children.

I am sure the order was for emergency custody, which is usually short term, once DSS had the medical report from the hospital on all three kids, that is when they could obtain a court order to move the kids to foster care.

Why would a pregnant mother not comply with drug testing? Kinda odd... Why the need for the extensive home surveillance system??

The punch in the wall was labeled dosmetic violence, which means he was really mad at someone in the family. What about the loaded shot gun with the safety off? The kids were 6, 4 and 2 yo. Yes, their guardian angel was working overtime!!

Did you notice the door that was "kicked in" it was being held by what appears to be a clothes hanger?
If the parents had done the right thing we would not be having this conversation, the kids would be home in their, messy, cluttered, concrete floor house, with vomit in the beds and no one would be wiser.

Clearly, many, many red flags!!! Thank God, they were reported and we didn't find the kid buried in the back yard, years later. The original practitioner did not give up, she had that GUT feeling, it shows in kids eyes, it's a sad/hopeless look, you just know, she should be commended!!!

 

[Breezie]

There were medical records, verifying the fever had broken and gone down, in an article posted earlier. The parents did not lie about that.

A competent urgent care doctor would have recognized RSV without all those tests. Why would a spinal tap be needed to diagnose RSV? It is so common that most 2 year olds have already had it. Doctors must be able to make that diagnosis, without a hospital visit, or the ERs would be even more flooded during cold & flu season.

Where does it say the mom did not agree to drug testing? It only says the dad agreed to it. Was mom already tested and cleared?

The surveillance system might be due to the neighborhood or not. Many people have them for a variety of reasons.

 

[Breezie]

There is an assumption that the surveillance system, drug testing, etc... might imply a drug house. They own a roofing business. When you own a business, you have to pay for your own insurance, which can be quite high, if you are over a certain income limit. They may not qualify for Medicaid.

 

[Simply Southern]

There is an assumption that the surveillance system, drug testing, etc... might imply a drug house. They own a roofing business. When you own a business, you have to pay for your own insurance, which can be quite high, if you are over a certain income limit. They may not qualify for Medicaid.

Wow, I would love to see the article where a medical professional said, the fever was down. Also, what article referenced he owned a roofing business. I missed that one, for sure.

Clearly, I need to read these articles for the third time.
Thanks, for bringing that to my attention. Hopefully, the case manager can get the family signed up under the Affordable Care Act, then everyone would be covered, having babies is very expensive, private pay. Medicaid income limit is 36k per year for 4. As, they are not married mother and children would be covered by Medicaid for sure.

Not accusing the family of anything, just looking at facts that were stated. Working in healthcare 45 years, I've seen so many heartbreaking situations.

Back in the 90's it was hard to remove kids from the home, due the false Day Care Scandal.
My BF, was Dir. Of Social Services at the local hospital. On a Wed, a grandmother brought in a 5 day old infant with bruises and suspected the mother was responsible. My BF, the Dr and LE begged the local judge for an order to remove the child. He refused. On Sunday, 4 days later, and it was Mothers Day, the infant was brought to the ER via rescue squad. The mother had microwaved the baby and the infant was deceased. My BF had a breakdown, resigned and became a Hospice Social Worker, the Judge resigned. DSS, the hospital and the city were sued for neglect, by the family and settled out of court, very rich. We have 4 cases pending in my state now, for neglect by DSS resulting in infant deaths.

I will ALWAYS, error on the side of caution with kids, it is the BIG peoples job to protect them, no matter the cost.

 

[Bugurl747]

SBM

A competent urgent care doctor would have recognized RSV without all those tests. Why would a spinal tap be needed to diagnose RSV? It is so common that most 2 year olds have already had it. Doctors must be able to make that diagnosis, without a hospital visit, or the ERs would be even more flooded during cold & flu season.

RSV is confirmed by a nasal swab. In a hospital setting, when symptoms warrant, we swab and rule out both RSV and Influenza at the same time (both of which are prevalent right now). The test results can be rapid within minutes/hours, but that depends on the facility.
I believe urgent care or med express can do rapid testing for RSV/FLU. Offices may not have in house labs, they may be able to swab, draw blood, or other testing methods but the specimen may need sent out to a different testing facility for results which can take days or weeks. There are a lot of variables. MOO

 

[Breezie]

A couple decided not to take their feverish child to the hospital. Hours later police kicked down their door

Simply Southern, it is just one sentence, in a very long article.

Attorneys for the parents claimed DCS was angry at the parents for speaking with the media and as retribution DCS officials were making it more difficult for the family to regain custody of their children.

They said the child’s fever had gone down, as evidenced in medical reports.

Not sure about the business info, it might not be current, but he has an occupation has a roofer.

 

[human]

The cost of an urgent care visit would be much less than the ER for someone without insurance.

The initial recommendation was based on both the wrong diagnosis and a high temp.

After the temp dropped so quickly, why would an urgent care visit not have been an option?

The drug testing might be a standard request. It does not mean they were addicts. The house is messy which might be because people were sick. There is a difference between messy and filthy. Also, one punch in the wall, does not necessarily mean that they were living in a violent household. There are a lot of assumptions being made here.

Evaluating these issues, now is good, but it is unfair to assume, that the kids are better off, without their family. The current goal is to reunite them with their family.

People punch their walls ? This is a an average thing that happens?

 

[Breezie]

People punch their walls ? This is a an average thing that happens?

No, not average, but also not enough to label someone, if it happened only one time.

Swinging a door, too hard, can also create a hole so it might not take that much pressure.

 

[Kristikay52]

It was a naturopathic doctor. When a naturopathic doctor sends you to the ER that says something, IMO.
Now granted the kid still didn't have 105 degree temp but he ended up getting admitted to the hospital. So he needed medical treatment and wasn't going to just get better at home.
Another one or maybe 2 of the kids said they had thrown up in their beds and had puke stains all over their clothes.
The police tried to do a welfare check first by phone and the father refused. When they showed up at the house they would not let them in.
It's a lose, lose here. If the police didn't gain entry into the home and the child died people would be singing a different tune.

 

[Simply Southern]

@Breezie <modsnipped sleuthing family>

I did see the reference the parents attorney made, the fever was down, again hear say. It would seem an attorney would obtain the medical records, especially since they were trying to get them back.

And I did find an article with the medial outcome.

Chandler police remove kids from home after sick child not taken to hospital

Two of the children were transported to the hospital by ambulance, while the third was transported by DCS. The 2-year-old was later admitted to the hospital, according to police.

 

[Simply Southern]

No, not average, but also not enough to label someone, if it happened only one time.

Swinging a door, too hard, can also create a hole so it might not take that much pressure.

I agree, however, someone filed dosmetic violence charges and it is on his record. IMHO, the refusal to, open the door, not answering the phone, and DV charges, YES, I can see why they called SWAT. We've seen cases on WS, where the daddy starts shooting when the cops show up.

I have 3 grandchildren, that I think are angels and would never have a police encounter (other than social events). We as a family, have taught all the children and grandchildren to ALWAYS stop and do EXACTLY what the police tell you to do. We've had numerous discussions about BB guns, toy guns and bow & arrows and the need to DROP and PUT your hands up if you encounter a police officer. It is our job as parents to set the example the police may not be RIGHT, and a court of law will decide, however, not doing what they tell you can result in death, injury or jail time. My GKs and DD were shooting guns w/blanks at an early age, all are excellent marksman. Every year, I get the bulls eyes from camp with a letter on the back, many of their friends Dads are LE, and they learned authority at a early age...like 2 ish. To quote Big Mama ...it's home training.

Clearly, these folks made some not good choices
**lack of medical follow up
**refusing to cooperate with Police and the SWAT Team
**not striving to work with DSS

If DSS had my kids I would be doing anything they said to get my kids back. Once, I had my kids, THEN I would fight for any injustice that occurs. But hey, that just me.

Always, side with the kids....always.

 

[Breezie]

@Breezie <modsnipped>

I did see the reference the parents attorney made, the fever was down, again hear say. It would seem an attorney would obtain the medical records, especially since they were trying to get them back.

And I did find an article with the medial outcome.

Chandler police remove kids from home after sick child not taken to hospital

Two of the children were transported to the hospital by ambulance, while the third was transported by DCS. The 2-year-old was later admitted to the hospital, according to police.

That is a good article.

The record from the medics would show if the temp was down, they would still err on the side of caution. In the middle of the night, the hospital would also.

If the family had been allowed to go to UC or the ER, in the morning, and the fever was still low or lower, they probably would have been able to go home that day. Symptoms and complications of RSV are treated, like pneumonia, but he was not diagnosed with pneumonia.

The family should have opened the door right away. The father said they would have opened their door, for a warrant, but they were asleep by the time a warrant was served. Should they have expected a SWAT team? This wouldn’t be international news if it was a common occurrence.

 

[human]

That is a good article.

The record from the medics would show if the temp was down, they would still err on the side of caution. In the middle of the night, the hospital would also.

If the family had been allowed to go to UC or the ER, in the morning, and the fever was still low or lower, they probably would have been able to go home that day. Symptoms and complications of RSV are treated, like pneumonia, but he was not diagnosed with pneumonia.

The family should have opened the door right away. The father said they would have opened their door, for a warrant, but they were asleep by the time a warrant was served. Should they have expected a SWAT team? This wouldn’t be international news if it was a common occurrence.

They may have a history that prompted an intense response.

 

[Simply Southern]

That is a good article.

The record from the medics would show if the temp was down, they would still err on the side of caution. In the middle of the night, the hospital would also.

If the family had been allowed to go to UC or the ER, in the morning, and the fever was still low or lower, they probably would have been able to go home that day. Symptoms and complications of RSV are treated, like pneumonia, but he was not diagnosed with that.

The family should have opened their door but they were asleep by the time a warrant was served. Should they have expected a SWAT team? This wouldn’t be international news if it was a common occurrence.

Yes, the Medic & ER records would clearly prove the temp was down. IMHO, I don't think the attorney wanted to present those, unless they clearly proved the parents were correct.

" Had they been allowed to go to UC the next day"
Nope, that child was seriously ill. ALL hospitals (except those ritzy one where you can stay PP) follow Interqual Criteria, a national set of protocols and guideline to meet in patient admission.

Had the parents opened the door and showed the temp was down, IMO, I think any LE or DSS worker would have agreed to wait. IMHO, It was NOT the time to say NO to LE, especially when they repeatedly said, we are coming back with a warrant. They had cameras, they could clearly see LE, they knew SWAT was out front. Look at the video, SWAT turned his back to the door and used his foot to push the door open. If they were worried about the neighborhood and need a surveillance system, it would seem they would better secure the home.

<modsnipped> IMO... The folks ran straight to the press, there are numerous video interviews, blaming LE and the Dr., no mention of what they are doing to obtain custody. One interview was 3 days later, IMHO, I would have cleaned up a little bit before welcoming the press in. Yes, they were upset, but the house was a train wreck and on national TV, that sure didn't help my opinion of the situation.

Some folks, just aren't gonna be told what to do, period, regardless of the outcome. What kind of example did either set for the children? I bet those kids were scared to death. They stated they were asleep, but dad was holding the child while talking to the police at the door, and the other kids were puking in the bed.

The only injustice here are the kids had to experience this entire situation, one they will NEVER forget because of their dad and mom.

Wonder if they have filed a law suit, yet??? IMO, that's next...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Any evidence in medical reports of the child's fever going down would have been AFTER the child was removed from the parents and taken to the hospital though. So because the parents refused to allow the child to be examined by anyone, DCS would have had no way to know for sure if the fever had really come down to a safe level or not. Until they forcibly removed the child and took him to medical professional themselves.

I can understand why they took the child to medical professionals to be examined.

As a parent I would want tests run on my child to see why their fever rose to a dangerous temp of 105 no matter if it had broken. I would be afraid it may begin to rise again.

Did they ever say what caused the fever to become so high? Did they check to see if the child had measles? It just seems there had to be something serious going on for it to rise to a dangerous temperature of a 105.

They told us our daughter could have suffered brain damage when her's rose to 105 very quickly if we hadn't gotten her immediate care.

In fact once they finally got her fever to break they did test to make sure she hadn't suffered any brain damage. Thank God she didnt, and they told us it was because we had gottten her to the hospital very fast once it began to rise higher, and higher.

When we arrived the doctor, and nurses were waiting outside for us. The doctor actually picked her up out of my arms from our vehicle, running into the hospital with her in his arms, and they began working on her immediately!

Imo

 

[Breezie]

Yes, the Medic & ER records would clearly prove the temp was down. IMHO, I don't think the attorney wanted to present those, unless they clearly proved the parents were correct.

" Had they been allowed to go to UC the next day"
Nope, that child was seriously ill. ALL hospitals (except those ritzy one where you can stay PP) follow Interqual Criteria, a national set of protocols and guideline to meet in patient admission.

Had the parents opened the door and showed the temp was down, IMO, I think any LE or DSS worker would have agreed to wait. IMHO, It was NOT the time to say NO to LE, especially when they repeatedly said, we are coming back with a warrant. They had cameras, they could clearly see LE, they knew SWAT was out front. Look at the video, SWAT turned his back to the door and used his foot to push the door open. If they were worried about the neighborhood and need a surveillance system, it would seem they would better secure the home.

The Baby daddy is a Sales Rep, for the roof company, he is intelligent, he knew they would break the door down. IMO... The folks ran straight to the press, there are numerous video interviews, blaming LE and the Dr., no mention of what they are doing to obtain custody. One interview was 3 days later, IMHO, I would have cleaned up a little bit before welcoming the press in. Yes, they were upset, but the house was a train wreck and on national TV, that sure didn't help my opinion of the situation.

Some folks, just aren't gonna be told what to do, period, regardless of the outcome. What kind of example did either set for the children? I bet those kids were scared to death. They stated they were asleep, but dad was holding the child while talking to the police at the door, and the other kids were puking in the bed.

The only injustice here are the kids had to experience this entire situation, one they will NEVER forget because of their dad and mom.

Wonder if they have filed a law suit, yet??? IMO, that's next...

They were up and did talk with them, before they came back, with a warrant. When they returned with the warrant, it was at least a few hours later.

Will there be a lawsuit is a good question, depending, on whether the family had a right to wait for a warrant or not?

Given the late hour, was the announcement of the warrant loud enough, or was enough time allowed, for someone to answer the door. The family may have expected them to return in the morning.