4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #77

[jepop]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

As far as I can see re credibility, either defense will have to suggest that she saw no-one or that the person she did see was somehow different to the description she gave. Otherwise the fact remains that she saw someone. She can only testify to what she remembers seeing and hearing from her own perceptions and the approximate times (although I believe this will be backed up by her and BF's cell data and the DD delivery). Unless the defense can somehow demonstrate that she saw no-one I'm not sure how valuable a discredit of DM would be to defense. JMO, but I doubt the defense will get very far trying to prove she saw no-one, not saying that it will not be attempted necessarily. I think the prosecution will call her, she will give her account of what she saw, heard and did and her peceptions. Ditto for the morning after. The defense will cross examine.

I also believe,that like any other witnesses, DM and BF would have given detailed witness statements, signed and sworn to on the day of the crimes or very soon after.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People talk about crime scene contamination. I don't doubt for a second that will be addressed by the prosecution pre-emptively, using expert witnesses and the testimony of those who were there and discovered the crime later that morning. I'm sure the prosecution have thought about this, or a I assume so anyway, and are ready for that being raised by the defense. Again to my mind potential crime scene contamination later that morn by the roommates/friends of roommates, has zero to do with a line of questioning by the defense that somehow tries to suggest that the 911 call happening at 11.50am instead of 4.30am might have a bearing on who committed the murders, how the murders were committed, when the murders were committed or why they were committed. MOO

 

[jepop]

I don't believe so. The probable cause affidavit, as I recall, said that BF saw them at the party at the house on campus "at approximately at 9 p.m. on November 12th to about 1:45 a.m. on November 13" and that BF believed that everyone was home by 2 a.m.

LE might well know where EC and XK were. Clearly it was deemed unnecessary for inclusion in the Probable Cause Affadavit for the arrest of the suspect. MOO

 

[katydid23]

So far as we know now, BK did not earn an undergraduate degree in CJ as the above link suggests. So he likely didn't take any of the listed undergrad CJ courses and may not have had an idea of expected performance at the undergrad level in that discipline. His undergrad degree was in Psychology. All kinds of things have been said about his academic background but I finally found some documentation his undergrad degree is in Psychology here: DeSales graduation, spring 2020 | Times News Online

It's been pretty impossible to find the 2020 commencement progrm-- virtual because of COVID. But the above listing does say he earned the BS in Psychology in 2020 *advertiser censored* laude. He then earned the CJ MA 2 years later and plenty of documentation/video exists for that graduation ceremony.
JMO

Is it weird that he could get a masters in criminology without doing the undergrad coursework?

 

[whiterhino]

People talk about crime scene contamination. I don't doubt for a second that will be addressed by the prosecution pre-emptively, using expert witnesses and the testimony of those who were there and discovered the crime later that morning. I'm sure the prosecution have thought about this, or a I assume so anyway, and are ready for that being raised by the defense. Again to my mind potential crime scene contamination later that morn by the roommates/friends of roommates, has zero to do with a line of questioning by the defense that somehow tries to suggest that the 911 call happening at 11.50am instead of 4.30am might have a bearing on who committed the murders, how the murders were committed, when the murders were committed or why they were committed. MOO

rsbbm

The timing of the 911 call might not have anything to do with how/when/why the murders occurred but it does leave a window of opportunity for potential crime scene contamination (not saying there was or wasn't any) and therefore room for doubt. Potentially. JMO.

 

[jepop]

Imo I hope they only use DM in the PCA and not the trial.

Her very brief description of who she saw that night only really guided the officer in deciding to look into BK further after having found his car and looked up his ID.
I think it would be pretty traumatizing for her and add a bunch of doubt during cross.
Moo

I would agree that it would be better not to call DM, however from what I understand the Defense can call her even if prosecution don't. Therefore I think the prosecution will call her first. MOO

 

[jepop]

rsbbm

The timing of the 911 call might not have anything to do with how/when/why the murders occurred but it does leave a window of opportunity for potential crime scene contamination (not saying there was or wasn't any) and therefore room for doubt. Potentially. JMO.

How exactly? We know of no other POI or suspect at this point. Perhaps defense will introduce one? Forensics would have, IMO, addressed any potential crime scene contamination by those who were present in the house. Defense can look at the gap between 4.30am and 11.50am and perhaps try to suggest that someone, apart from the roommates and friends, came in and committed the murders at say between 5am and whatever time the roommates woke up/arose/realised that something was wrong but they will need more than conjecture for that. If we are talking contamination, they will need some evidence of unknown dna for starters at the crime scenes that can be shown to have been deposited there after 4.30am and before the roommates arose/left rooms or whatever.MOO. My point is that questioning the timing of 911 so as to discredit DM's character in some way and from there her reliability would not seem to go anywhere in terms of casting doubt on this suspect. It is like a distraction tactic. If on cross, the defense tries to go that specific way with a line of questioning, I believe prosecution will object and this wil lbe sustained. Because...to what purpose and relevance? MOO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Is it weird that he could get a masters in criminology without doing the undergrad coursework?

Good question, @katydid23

I think it's pertinent looking at current info on DeSales University's website on requirements for a Masters Degree in "Criminology", they don't appear to have a Master's Degree in Criminology at present -- only a "Master's in Criminal Justice" (MCJ), and for that degree there are 3 different types (links below).

I am well aware/have read multiple posts on previous threads here that there is a difference in a Masters in Criminology vs Criminal Justice, and everything in between perhaps, and I get that.

Could have been a "fake out" on BK's part, IMO.

Or DeSales has changed the requirements since BK applied/attended and got his degree.

DeSales MCJ presently requires:

"Admissions to the MCJ program are on a rolling basis, with no standardized exam requirements.

Requirements for admission into the Master of Arts in Criminal Justice (MCJ) Program are:

• A bachelor’s degree from a college or university accredited by one of the six regional accrediting bodies (Middle States, New England, North Central, Northwest, Southern, and Western Association of Schools and Colleges) or its equivalent from a foreign institution with a cumulative G.P.A. of 3.0 or higher
• Background or interest in the field of criminal justice.
• Evidence of potential for graduate work: A personal statement must be submitted that will serve as a demonstration of your ability to write at the graduate level. It should state your personal and professional goals, as well as how an MCJ degree from DeSales University can assist you in achieving them.
• Resume Required

Applicants who lack one or more requirements may be admitted to the program on a provisional basis. Individuals with special needs or goals may be considered for admission to the program."

Earn a Masters degree in Criminal Justice with a focus on Digital Forensics

And for the accelerated MCJ:

Accelerated Criminal Justice Degree | DeSales University

And for the "5-Year Bachelor's to Master's:

Earn a Bachelor's and Master's degree in Criminal Justice in 5 years at DeSales University

Questions remain, jmo

 

[Helechawagirl]

You're right, @BeginnerSleuther , I hear you.

Just like "everything" in terms of BK's alleged motive(s), it remains to be seen.

I still would bet 'dollars to donuts' this was a quadruple murder for a reason.

MOO.

I don’t think E and X would have been killed unless they were part of the plan. Seems unlikely they saw him so wouldn’t be witnesses. LE had a theory early on that maybe the house was targeted.I sure hope we get answers one day.

 

[jepop]

DBM

 

[whiterhino]

How exactly? We know of no other POI or suspect at this point. Perhaps defense will introduce one? Forensics would have, IMO, addressed any potential crime scene contamination by those who were present in the house. Defense can look at the gap between 4.30am and 11.50am and perhaps try to suggest that someone, apart from the roommates and friends, came in and committed the murders at say between 5am and whatever time the roommates woke up/arose/realised that something was wrong but they will need more than conjecture for that. If we are talking contamination, they will need some evidence of unknown dna for starters at the crime scenes that can be shown to have been deposited there after 4.30am and before the roommates arose/left rooms or whatever.MOO. My point is that questioning the timing of 911 so as to discredit DM's character in some way and from there her reliability would not seem to go anywhere in terms of casting doubt on this suspect. It is like a distraction tactic. If on cross, the defense tries to go that specific way with a line of questioning, I believe prosecution will object and this wil lbe sustained. Because...to what purpose and relevance? MOO

RBBM

I'm not really sure that I can answer the how. What I mean is room for doubt in the mind of a juror which I'm pretty sure that doubt of one juror does not = not guilty.

There's so much other evidence from BK. It's difficult IMO to believe that any jury member would learn all of this other information and remain doubtful due to something like the scene being unattended for several hours. (technically not unattended but not sure how to say it, not yet attended to by LE). JMO.

 

[jepop]

RBBM

I'm not really sure that I can answer the how. What I mean is room for doubt in the mind of a juror which I'm pretty sure that doubt of one juror does not = not guilty.

There's so much other evidence from BK. It's difficult IMO to believe that any jury member would learn all of this other information and remain doubtful due to something like the scene being unattended for several hours. (technically not unattended but not sure how to say it, not yet attended to by LE). JMO.

Thanks for clarifying, I get what you are saying now.

ETA: I think prosecution will address crime scene contamination, potential and actual, by all who were present when the crimes were discovered later that morning to try and address any potential juror doubt. Ofcourse, a juror can still decide that somone else may have entered the house later on and committed the crimes but on what evidentiary basis I'm not sure if defense does not provide something other than insinuation. MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I don’t think E and X would have been killed unless they were part of the plan. Seems unlikely they saw him so wouldn’t be witnesses. LE had a theory early on that maybe the house was targeted.I sure hope we get answers one day.

But Xana was up at 4 am receiving a Door Dash order and then it was stated that she was on TikTok until after 4. I find it hard to believe she ate, watched videos and fell asleep in a matter of minutes.

I think she heard something and E went to investigate or was beginning to, BK quickly attacked E, who was probably still half asleep having NO IDEA what was happening, with a knife and then went after X (BK was reported saying "It ok, I'm here to help). I think she was awake and quickly knew she was in danger, that's where her defensive wounds came in.

All MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I would agree that it would be better not to call DM, however from what I understand the Defense can call her even if prosecution don't. Therefore I think the prosecution will call her first. MOO

I'm sincerely curious why you think it would be better for the State not to call DM. She witnessed BK leaving the scene of the murder (or a bushy eyebrowed, tall, athletic built man with dark clothes and wearing a mask), that's key. She did nothing wrong, she was confused at some noises she heard and checked but saw nothing until the last time when he walked by.

I know people don't understand why she wouldn't have immediately called 911 or thought there was an emergency, but everyone should remember, she is a young college girl, woken up out of a deep sleep. She had no reason to think there was a mass murderer in the house. She probably thought he was just a friend of one of the victims, maybe a booty call or something completely harmless. She is not a seasoned crime follower like us one WS who would think something nefarious was happening.

MOO

 

[jepop]

I'm sincerely curious why you think it would be better for the State not to call DM. She witnessed BK leaving the scene of the murder (or a bushy eyebrowed, tall, athletic built man with dark clothes and wearing a mask), that's key. She did nothing wrong, she was confused at some noises she heard and checked but saw nothing until the last time when he walked by.

I know people don't understand why she wouldn't have immediately called 911 or thought there was an emergency, but everyone should remember, she is a young college girl, woken up out of a deep sleep. She had no reason to think there was a mass murderer in the house. She probably thought he was just a friend of one of the victims, maybe a booty call or something completely harmless. She is not a seasoned crime follower like us one WS who would think something nefarious was happening.

MOO

Simply to avoid cross examination by the defense. I agree with you totally re timing 911 call and that it is explainable and cannot be described as a 'delay'. I agree with everything in your second paragraph. But I think I have been influenced in prior threads by some posts that gave me the impression that she would receive a "grilling" and whether for that reason, it could be avoided. Now, as I understand it, the defense would likely call her if prosecution do not, I think she should definately be called. And I think that the prosecution would definately have a plan for objecting to any lines of questioning by defense that may potentially be only distractions from the evidence against the suspect. MOO. I think the prosecution will plan her examination carefully and I hope that all will be well. MOO

 

[I'm Nobody]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

LE does use victim advocates for this.
Dylan is going to need all the strength and encouragement she can find to get through what happened before and after the events that morning and to testify in a room with the alleged killer staring at her. Add to that the ugly Internet spins about her. It is brutal beyond what most of us can imagine.

As a former rape crisis victim advocate (volunteer) back in the bad old days, victim witnesses were interviewed multiple times. The initial interviews at the scene by the responding officers were not as in-depth as the interviews that followed by a seasoned/trained victim-informed LE officer. The state I worked in (NY), victims could not be interviewed without an advocate present. New thinking for trauma-victims is to wait at least two sleeps between initial interview and follow-up interviews. Victims will be assigned a victim advocate (may or may not be LE) who stays in contact from the event through the trial, daily, then as needed, again daily as trial approaches. This contact can go on for years. The victim also may turn down advocate assistance. Often victim witnesses are not interviewed in the interrogation room like other witnesses, but in a soft room for the hard questions, still recorded though. The FBI teaches trauma-informed interview skills to LE and to victim organizations. The FBI are exceptional at this type of interviewing. Attached file to Chiefs of Police is an example of old ways of questioning, new ways and reasons why. The witness is prepared for trial before testifying so she knows what types of hardball questions might be thrown at her. IMO the FBI is still playing a role in this case and victim advocacy may be part of that. I truly hope so.

I wish I knew what Dylan needs to hear right now because that's what I want to say.
JMO
edit add link

https://www.theiacp.org/sites/default/files/2020-06/Final%20Design%20Successful%20Trauma%20Informed%20Victim%20Interviewing.pdf

 

[jepop]

LE does use victim advocates for this.
Dylan is going to need all the strength and encouragement she can find to get through what happened before and after the events that morning and to testify in a room with the alleged killer staring at her. Add to that the ugly Internet spins about her. It is brutal beyond what most of us can imagine.

As a former rape crisis victim advocate (volunteer) back in the bad old days, victim witnesses were interviewed multiple times. The initial interviews at the scene by the responding officers were not as in-depth as the interviews that followed by a seasoned/trained victim-informed LE officer. The state I worked in (NY), victims could not be interviewed without an advocate present. New thinking for trauma-victims is to wait at least two sleeps between initial interview and follow-up interviews. Victims will be assigned a victim advocate (may or may not be LE) who stays in contact from the event through the trial, daily, then as needed, again daily as trial approaches. This contact can go on for years. The victim also may turn down advocate assistance. Often victim witnesses are not interviewed in the interrogation room like other witnesses, but in a soft room for the hard questions, still recorded though. The FBI teaches trauma-informed interview skills to LE and to victim organizations. The FBI are exceptional at this type of interviewing. Attached file to Chiefs of Police is an example of old ways of questioning, new ways and reasons why. The witness is prepared for trial before testifying so she knows what types of hardball questions might be thrown at her. IMO the FBI is still playing a role in this case and victim advocacy may be part of that. I truly hope so.

I wish I knew what Dylan needs to hear right now because that's what I want to say.
JMO
edit add link

https://www.theiacp.org/sites/default/files/2020-06/Final%20Design%20Successful%20Trauma%20Informed%20Victim%20Interviewing.pdf

Thank you so much for your informative post. Great information and tees with my understandings and experiences re victim and trauma informed interview practices across the board. There has been substantial improvement in research and understanding of trauma since the 'bad old days' IMO, and TG for that. MOO

 

[mooseandcoffee]

Other articles have reported her age as 19. <modsnip: Sleuthing a witness is not allowed>

Surviving Idaho roommate Dylan Mortensen is seen outside her home

Dylan Mortensen, 19, was seen at her family home in Boise, Idaho by DailyMail.com on Sunday morning after a trip to Starbucks.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Amid the torment of losing three of her roommates in a tragic murder, University of Idaho student Dylan Mortensen has been spotted for the first time since it was revealed she saw the killer at the scene.

Exclusive DailyMail.com photos show the 19-year-old sophomore returning to her family's home in Boise after a Sunday morning coffee run.

The fact that tabloids are stalking her outside her home is insane and tragic.

 

[crumbcleaner]

Well then…this is interesting (if true)….

Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger kept ID tied to killings: sources

In addition to DNA evidence tying Kohberger to the grisly scene, an unsealed search warrant suggested police found unspecified IDs in the glovebox of his car.

nypost.com

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Is it weird that he could get a masters in criminology without doing the undergrad coursework?

No, IMO. For one, we don't know that he didn't do any undergrad coursework in criminology. Graduate school programs usually require some foundational knowledge of your subject, but there's overlap between psychology and criminology. So as part of his psychology degree, he may have taken enough elective criminology classes to satisfy the requirement for grad school. For example, a Sociology major can get a Master's in Biochemistry as long as he/she completed a sequence of biology and chemistry courses in undergrad.

MOO.

 

[U.N. Known]

You're right, @BeginnerSleuther , I hear you.

Just like "everything" in terms of BK's alleged motive(s), it remains to be seen.

I still would bet 'dollars to donuts' this was a quadruple murder for a reason.

MOO.

I'm very curious why you think that. In my mind, for reasons I can't explain, I've poo-pooed the idea of Kaylee or Maddie being a specific target. Likely because I haven't heard a good reason for it. However, as I think about it, it makes sense that there was a target. The cars out front indicated that there were more people in the house, yet two people were left untouched. If the killer just wanted to kill a house full of people, he would have at least gone to the first floor. IF that was the objective, there was no reason not to.