4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #78

[girlhasnoname]

It has come up or been speculated about in various ways. IMO, I think it's highly probable that he had some kind of interaction with one or more of the victims and / or the surviving roommates.

If he began visiting the vicinity of the King Road residence as early as June or July (and at least 11 times), per the cell phone records described in the PCA, he probably had a reason to be in the area that is unrelated to the later crime. It could be something that doesn't link him directly to the King Road residents -- maybe something as parasocial as being acquainted with one of their neighbors, or attending a party in the area. We know that Moscow and Pullman are very proximate and there is significant community overlap -- he might have even just decided to drive around the area or visit stores there before ever encountering the victims in any way (IRL or online). I say all of this because I think that whatever initially brought him to Moscow is unrelated to the crime; however, whatever he was doing might have exposed him / introduced him to the victims.

IMO, it does not make sense to me that he began scoping for victims or stalking the residence at random as soon as he moved to Pullman. Following that logic, he probably had a good reason to be in Moscow as soon as moving to Pullman to attend school at WSU. Somewhere during that time it's also likely that he encountered the victims or surviving roommates in some way (as others have mentioned, this could have been via social media, one-sided, or a casual in person encounter that led him to find their social media. The possibilities are endless and unknown as of right now).

Has anything been shared in MSM about any of the victims having interaction with BK? I haven't seen anything solid, only rumor and speculation.

MOO

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

LE would have needed probable cause to get those warrants, esp for 3-5 extra parties We don't know what the probable cause was, and can't really speculate, but they had to have something to show that the financial records of 7-9 different people were related to the murders or evidence related to the murders would be found there though. That's the kicker imo.

 

[gliving]

Motion hearing related to gag order in Kohberger case taking place May 25

The hearing is related to a motion filed by Shannon Gray, the attorney for the family of victim Kaylee Goncalves, to amend the gag order in the case.

www.krem.com

According to documents, (Latah County Magistrate Judge Megan) Marshall said she "mistakenly believed" they were parties and therefore subject to the order.
Gray said he emailed the Latah County Prosecutors Office for clarification after the original gag order was filed. He said the office never offered clarification nor gave him Marshall's email address.
Gray stated the current gag order only applies to the People- attorneys, investigators and agents- and the Defendant, Kohberger, as they are the only "parties" in the case. He added the family members of the victims are allowed to speak to the public and media under the First Amendment.
Gray requested the court amend and/or clarify the existing gag order to make clear who the "parties" in the case are. Gray also requested a hearing on the matter, which will take place on May 25.
Gray told KREM 2 the court held off on holding a motion hearing until the Idaho Supreme Court issued a ruling on an ongoing legal fight to limit the scope of the gag order. On April 24, the court rejected a request to limit the scope of the order.

 

[gliving]

This just popped up on the website:

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/042823%20Notice%20of%20Hearing%20Criminal.pdf

Thanks @SpiderFalcon ! Here's a copy of the document.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Thanks @SpiderFalcon ! Here's a copy of the document.

View attachment 418608

Thanks @SpiderFalcon and @gliving

I hope the judge's ruling and outcome of this hearing will result in clarification about Kaylee's family and their attorney Shanon Gray being able to speak out about her murder and the case in a way that will satisfy "all parties in this case". JMO

Kaylee Goncalves’ family fight gag order in Idaho murders case
"In Friday’s motion, Mr Gray said that the victims’ families are not parties in the case and so should not be covered by the gag order.

“On January 12, 2023 I participated in a zoom call with Magistrate Judge Megan Marshall in which several of the victims and witnesses’ attorneys were present as well as Latah County Prosecutor’s Office and counsel for the Defendant,” he wrote.

“In that zoom call I informed Judge Marshal that my clients, the surviving family of the family of the late Kaylee Goncalves are not parties to the case and therefore are not subject to the Order. The Judge stated that she mistakenly believed that they were “parties” and were therefore subject to the Order and she instructed me to advise them.”

Mr Gray argued that the “only “parties” to the case are the People and the Defendant” and so “the Victims surviving family members are free to speak to the public and the media under the First Amendment to the Constitution”.

“Simply put, their rights to freedom of speech cannot be restricted through a judicial prior restraint,” he wrote.

The attorney went on to say that it would place an “undue burden” on the Goncalves’ family if he – as their legal representation – is not able to relay their opinions, views or statements about the case under their First Amendment rights."

JMO

 

[al66pine]

An announcement from a member of the Royal House of BooBoos

....BETHANY GRACE FUNKE, through her attorney, has agreed to an interview with Idaho defense counsel in Reno, Nevada, in lieu of proceeding forward with the subpoena for Preliminary Hearing now set June 26 through June 30, 2023,”....

OKAY, SO I GOT CONFUSED WITH THE WORDING---...oops:

snipped for focus @katydid23

Been there, done that. Plenty of times. We all have.

No worries.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

<modsnip - quoted post and response to it have been removed>

I have taken LE looking at all the victims and BK's SM accounts and financial records as standard due diligence and looking for connections between the accused and the victims to flesh out some details of their murder investigation, as discussed below in MSM. JMO

"MOSCOW, Idaho — New court documents reveal several different sources investigators looked into to prosecute Bryan Kohberger, the man accused of killing four University of Idaho students in November 2022.

Documents posted to the Idaho Cases of Judicial Interest website reveal that prosecutors have looked into various pieces of Kohberger and the victims' private data, including financial records and social media accounts."

New documents show strategies in prosecution against Moscow murder suspect.

 

[schooling]

<modsnip - quoted post and response to it have been removed>

I have taken LE looking at all the victims and BK's SM accounts and financial records as standard due diligence and looking for connections between the accused and the victims to flesh out some details of their murder investigation, as discussed below in MSM. JMO

"MOSCOW, Idaho — New court documents reveal several different sources investigators looked into to prosecute Bryan Kohberger, the man accused of killing four University of Idaho students in November 2022.

Documents posted to the Idaho Cases of Judicial Interest website reveal that prosecutors have looked into various pieces of Kohberger and the victims' private data, including financial records and social media accounts."

New documents show strategies in prosecution against Moscow murder suspect.

Patterns of life.

Standard in most investigations.

MOO

 

[jjleroche]

Good point! Potentially, that could be it. But the warrant covers a heck of a lot more than that:

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20and%20Redact%20-%20Elan%20Financial%20Services.pdf

a lot, lot, lot more. And so it's hard to imagine LE would need all of that information and have probable cause for a warrant just to get the car title worked out. It seems like a good explanation, but the words automobile and car are never used, either, and LE asked for all of the below, so I'm thinking that is not about the title or towing. ICBW. But I think it's about something else. IMO

Editing to add this, too, because I really wanted to consider whether this could be the simple explanation, but alas, I'm going with ixnay on the arcay. The article was written 12/28. The author states that the car was picked up the previous Thursday. That was 12/22. The car was towed on or about 12/1. The warrant was dated 12/22 but the receipt for warrant items requested was dated 1/4. The car was heck and gone by then. I don't see how this could be about the car or the car title.

Also, editing to add, it's hard to imagine why the Affidavit would need to be sealed for something like a car title. here's what the order says:
I.C.A.R. 32(i)(2)(A), the court finds it necessary to seal in part and redact the record related to the search warrant because the documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person.

And the motion, signed by the prosecutor's office, that it should be sealed because:
1. Interfere with enforcement proceedings;
2. Constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy,
3. Disclose the identity of a confidential source; and
4. Disclose investigative techniques and procedures

Here's what's requested:
include all records and documents (the terms “records” and “documents” mean any and all tangible forms of expression in your possession, custody, or control, in any language or format, and include, but are not limited to, writings, papers, and tape recordings,electronic video and audio recordings (e.g.video surveillance), microform, electromagnetic recordings, optical recordings, electronic files orrecords, photographs, drafis, finished versions, originals, end copies, however created, produced,
or stored. Video surveillance/images pertaining to account transactions (to include account
opening, deposit, withdrawals, etc.) are included with this request. Supporting information can
be provided to help identify surveillance video/images for some of the transactions) from
September 1, 2022 to present in the name or control of:

o Kaylee Jade Goncalves,
to include the following:
o All Open and Closed accounts: all records pertaining to the individuals(s) or business
entities identified in this letter whether held jointly or severally or as n'ustee or fiduciary
as well as custodian, executor or guardian, as well as any other entity in which these
individual(s) or entities may have a financial interest; includes all accounts in which these
individuals had signatory authority and/or the right of withdrawal; these records should
include:
I Sigrature cards;
o Statement Data/Monthly Account Statements;
o Identification of and name assigned on all Debit Cards on account;
I Deposits and supporting documentation including but not limited to evidence of
cash, cancelled deposited checks front and back, transfers from other accounts
including full account number and name, and other credit information.
o Checks and other withdrawals including but not limited to cancelled checks front
and back, withdrawals and offsets, evidence of cash withdrawals, transfers from
other accounts including account number and name, other debit information;
o Wire transfers in and out including wire transfer instructions and evidence of
requester if possible;
o Evidence of cash transactions and identifying information of individuals
conducting cash transactions;
o Identification of sender or recipient bank, full account number, and account name
on ACH transfers, online transfers, teller transfers, or other transfers;
o Electronic/Internet records: for those customers who engage in online banking with your
financial institution, the following information pertaining to that online banking account:
usemames or other identifying information for the account; e-mail addresses associated
with the account to include any and all of the above information for any secondary or
additional e-mail addresses and or user names identified by you as belonging to the
targeted account in this letter; historical access logs for authentication to the account
SEARCH WARRANT 2 including Internet Protocol (1P) addresses for this account and date, time and dm'ation of
each session;
0 Certificate of Deposit and Money Market Certificates: including applications, actual
instmment(s), records of purchases and redemptions, checks issued on redemption,
checks used to purchase certificates, any correspondence and any Forms 1099 issued,
records revealing the annual interest paid or accumulated, the dates of payment or date
interest is earned, and checks issued for interest payments;
o Credit Card records (e.g. MasterCard and Visa): including customer’s application,
signature card, credit or background investigations conducted, correSpondence, monthly
billing statements, individual charge invoices, repayment records, disclosing the date,
amounts and method of repayment, checks used to make repayments (front and back);
o Purchase of Bank Checks: purchases of bank checks, cashiers, teller, traveler’s check
records, 0r money order records, including the check register, file copies of the check or
money orders, records revealing the date and source of payment for said checks or money
orders;
o Correspondence: all records of correspondence/communication between the customer and
the financial institution relating to the above services or for any other purpose, including
customer service inquiries or requests for assistance;
o Safe Deposit Boxes: any and all information pertaining to safe deposit boxes held by
customer including safe deposit application, authorized signers, and access logs;
o Other records: all applications, forms, and other written documents completed by the
customer; records of certified checks, wire transfers, or collections, letter credit, bonds
and securities purchased through your financial institution, savings bond transaction and
investment accounts. Such records that disclose the date and amount of the transaction,
method (cash or check) and source of payment, instruments and statements of
transactions; all correspondence with the above individual(s) entities and/or with third
parties regarding the above individual(s)/entities; all memoranda, notes, files, or records
relating to meetings or conversations concerning the above individual(s)/entities;

Brilliant research Sister Golden Hair! LE have had probable cause to request this information, and I'm betting the requested information has provided LE with a treasure trove of official money trails for one/some of the victims (which may or may not have led to BK). JMO

<modsnip: Negative, unsubstantiated speculation re the victims is not allowed>

 

[U.N. Known]

This just popped up on the website:

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/042823%20Notice%20of%20Hearing%20Criminal.pdf

I'm very curious as to what they want discuss. At this point, IMO, one more set of voices just ads more noise and more for the more colorful media to misinterpret. A lot of the pertinent information is already redacted or sealed.

Is Mr. Gray really after transparency or is he interested in being on TV to give his opinions about the case? Is he trying to speak to the press through them or is really a request they made on their own? I What is their purpose?

Perhaps I'm different than many, but I don't care to hear from victims' families or friends (in any case) beyond basic information. I am skeptical of the truth of accounts when the victim or more so the defendant/accused is painted as a saint.

 

[Honeybirdette]

Time of death needs to be independently obtained through physiological evidence, which a motor vehicle is not. You cannot determine time of death based on a car speeding away, regardless of that person's DNA being on the knife sheath. The point of a trial is to gather evidence against the suspect. If his car at the scene of the crime and you want to use that as evidence, then you have to prove the time of death correlates with his car being at the scene of the crime. You can't use the car speeding away as confirmation of time of death. That's confirmation bias.

MOO.

Yes - The coroner has already clarified the estimated time of death well before BK was even arrested.

“It would have been early in the morning, sometime after 2 a.m., but still during the night," Mabbutt said, adding that there wasn't a medical way to determine who was attacked first, but investigators are "trying to put timelines together with other text messages and other technology."

Obviously there is evidence that the police believe narrows it down to a 20-minute-specific time window or they wouldn’t say it.

Coroner Has New Details About Fatal Slaying of 4 U of Idaho Students After Autopsies

The four students were found stabbed to death inside a home in Moscow, Idaho, on Nov. 13.

www.today.com

 

[U.N. Known]

Yes - The coroner has already clarified the estimated time of death well before BK was even arrested.

“It would have been early in the morning, sometime after 2 a.m., but still during the night," Mabbutt said, adding that there wasn't a medical way to determine who was attacked first, but investigators are "trying to put timelines together with other text messages and other technology."

Obviously there is evidence that the police believe narrows it down to a 20-minute-specific time window or they wouldn’t say it.

Coroner Has New Details About Fatal Slaying of 4 U of Idaho Students After Autopsies

The four students were found stabbed to death inside a home in Moscow, Idaho, on Nov. 13.

www.today.com

IMO, based on evidence from other instances, the above in bold isn't an absolute. It may be, but there is a big difference between sometime after 2 AM and between 4 AM and 4:25 AM (correct me if I'm wrong on the exact times mentioned). That conclusion is based on the time DM said she was first moved to open her door, the time of the DD delivery, and the time Xana's phone was active on TikTok. All of that happened well after 2 AM.

I'd like to know if there is now medical evidence that puts the victims' TOD during the 20ish minute time frame that coincides with the sighting of the masked man in the house and the white Elantra sightings.

 

[r3d-ros3]

IMO, based on evidence from other instances the above in bold isn't an absolute. It may, but there is no rationale for the officer's conclusion of the time of death beyond what he listed in the PCA. That conclusion is based on the time DM said she was first moved to open her door, the time of the DD delivery, and the time Xana's phone was active on TikTok. All of that happened well after 2 AM.

I'd like to know if there is medical evidence that puts the victims' TOD during the 20ish minute time frame that coincide with the sighting of the masked man in the house and the white Elantra sightings.

There is significant evidence -- circumstantial and witness testimony -- that helps to narrow down the time of death in the PCA. Like you mention: the DD delivery, Xana's phone activity, DM seeing the masked man, and the Elantra arrival and departure. Yes, this is evidence that follows the prosecution's narrative of that night. However, it's unlikely that there is medical evidence that would suggest the murders took place an hour or two before 4am, or even an hour after. What would that medical evidence look like? If the difference between being killed at 3am and 5am is significant, it would be hard to prove that the deaths occurred earlier or later considering the narrow time frame that the murders took place (everyone home by 2am, bodies found just before noon the same day). Assuming they conducted autopsies, they might have ascertained stomach content (did Xana eat the DD order, for example, which would prove that Xana was murdered after receiving the DD order), but barring a witness who saw the murders take place, determining TOD is a guessing game as I understand it. All IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

IMO, based on evidence from other instances, the above in bold isn't an absolute. It may be, but there is a big difference between sometime after 2 AM and between 4 AM and 4:25 AM (correct me if I'm wrong on the exact times mentioned). That conclusion is based on the time DM said she was first moved to open her door, the time of the DD delivery, and the time Xana's phone was active on TikTok. All of that happened well after 2 AM.

I'd like to know if there is now medical evidence that puts the victims' TOD during the 20ish minute time frame that coincides with the sighting of the masked man in the house and the white Elantra sightings.

Yeah, saying they don't know who was attacked first or knowing when the attack happened is not the same is saying anything about the time of death. Death is a physiologic process. I maintain, you cannot use the car to both place someone at the scene of the crime AND say what time that crime happened. This last part is JMO, but it is a fact that death is a physiologic process and doesn't usually correlate to who was attacked first, unless the attacks are separated by much more time than mere minutes.

 

[U.N. Known]

There is significant evidence -- circumstantial and witness testimony -- that helps to narrow down the time of death in the PCA. Like you mention: the DD delivery, Xana's phone activity, DM seeing the masked man, and the Elantra arrival and departure. Yes, this is evidence that follows the prosecution's narrative of that night. However, it's unlikely that there is medical evidence that would suggest the murders took place an hour or two before 4am, or even an hour after. What would that medical evidence look like? If the difference between being killed at 3am and 5am is significant, it would be hard to prove that the deaths occurred earlier or later considering the narrow time frame that the murders took place (everyone home by 2am, bodies found just before noon the same day). Assuming they conducted autopsies, they might have ascertained stomach content (did Xana eat the DD order, for example, which would prove that Xana was murdered after receiving the DD order), but barring a witness who saw the murders take place, determining TOD is a guessing game as I understand it. All IMO.

It's a little bit of the circular reasoning @BeginnerSleuther mentioned earlier posts. The defendant is tied to the murders in the PCA partially based on the sighting of the car and the intruder.

If the TOD is determined not to be during the 20ish-minute timeframe in the PCA, that changes things. It could mean:

1. that the intruder was seen after the murders
2. the person or people in the Elantra are unconnected to the murders.
3. the car and the intruder DM saw are not connected.

All of that is supposition, and may be a stretch. IMO, with so many moving parts, both sets of attorneys will want to know TOD as closte to the actual time as possible.

 

[Sillybilly]

Posts that are hyper-focusing on the minutiae of TOD have been removed. State your initial opinion and move on without bickering over it.

Also, rumors and wild speculation are not allowed. Unless there is a known fact to substantiate any association of the victims to drugs or OF, it is rumor and off limits here.

Excerpt from: The Rules: Etiquette & Information

Websleuths is a victim friendly forum. Attacking or bashing a victim is not allowed. Discussing known victim behavior, good or bad is fine, but do so in a civil and constructive way, and only when such behavior is known to be relevant to the case.

 

[r3d-ros3]

It's a little bit of the circular reasoning @BeginnerSleuther mentioned earlier posts. The defendant is tied to the murders in the PCA partially based on the sighting of the car and the intruder.

If the TOD is determined not to be during the 20ish-minute timeframe in the PCA, that changes things. It could mean:

1. that the intruder was seen after the murders
2. the person or people in the Elantra are unconnected to the murders.
3. the car and the intruder DM saw are not connected.

All of that is supposition, and may be a stretch. IMO, with so many moving parts, both sets of attorneys will want to know TOD as closte to the actual time as possible.

All of that makes sense, and I was also thinking about what it would mean to determine a TOD that doesn't correspond with their other evidence. My point was that I don't exactly understand how that could be done considering the narrow time frame. I am not suggesting anything nefarious about the prosecution's narrative: it can be, at the same time, an attempt to place their suspect and his vehicle at the scene and a logical way of establishing the time of death (which, again, is not an exact science). All IMO.

 

[DizzyB]

Yeah, saying they don't know who was attacked first or knowing when the attack happened is not the same is saying anything about the time of death. Death is a physiologic process. I maintain, you cannot use the car to both place someone at the scene of the crime AND say what time that crime happened. This last part is JMO, but it is a fact that death is a physiologic process and doesn't usually correlate to who was attacked first, unless the attacks are separated by much more time than mere minutes.

Order of attack could be determined by blood evidence as it appears that one weapon was used.

 

[Boxer]

Order of attack could be determined by blood evidence as it appears that one weapon was used.

That makes terrible sense. Sorry these lives were interrupted this way.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

LE have had probable cause to request this information, and I'm betting the requested information has provided LE with a treasure trove of official money trails for one/some of the victims (which may or may not have led to BK). JMO

Agreed, imo LE found a lot. We don't know what, and I certainly don't think it's nefarious on the part of the victims, but it sure looks like there were some trails to follow that hopefully led LE to fitting these pieces together.

What I hope from all of this is that whatever the outcome, there's a fair trial, justice served to the right person/people, and big BARD, go big or go home BARD, so that there are no lingering questions. That's just me.

What I find interesting is not that LE researched the victims' accounts - that's expected - but they added three other parties and then, after the initial round of warrants, they expanded to so many more financial institutions and added more parties, and assuming that the parties who were added are living, definitely needed PC and it looks like there's some good info LE has followed. Add to that other warrants, and it's just interesting to wonder who/what/where/why/how because right now, it doesn't come together. That is just what bugs me about this case. It doesn't come together, and wrapping up the scenario in a nice tight little package leaves out way too much stuff, too many questions imo.

edited for s/v agmt.