4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #78

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IMO, based on evidence from other instances, the above in bold isn't an absolute. It may be, but there is a big difference between sometime after 2 AM and between 4 AM and 4:25 AM (correct me if I'm wrong on the exact times mentioned). That conclusion is based on the time DM said she was first moved to open her door, the time of the DD delivery, and the time Xana's phone was active on TikTok. All of that happened well after 2 AM.

I'd like to know if there is now medical evidence that puts the victims' TOD during the 20ish minute time frame that coincides with the sighting of the masked man in the house and the white Elantra sightings.
If any of the housemates ate their food either from DD or Grub Truck that might narrow things down? Not the most scientific method but might indicate something.

Could bruising be an indicator? Specifically would marks or bruises on the first victim be at a different stage/state than marks or bruises on the last victim?

Maybe our resident doctor will know @BeginnerSleuther ?
 
Agreed, imo LE found a lot. We don't know what, and I certainly don't think it's nefarious on the part of the victims, but it sure looks like there were some trails to follow that hopefully led LE to fitting these pieces together.

What I hope from all of this is that whatever the outcome, there's a fair trial, justice served to the right person/people, and big BARD, go big or go home BARD, so that there are no lingering questions. That's just me.

What I find interesting is not that LE researched the victims' accounts - that's expected - but they added three other parties and then, after the initial round of warrants, they expanded to so many more financial institutions and added more parties, and assuming that the parties who were added are living, definitely needed PC and it looks like there's some good info LE has followed. Add to that other warrants, and it's just interesting to wonder who/what/where/why/how because right now, it doesn't come together. That is just what bugs me about this case. It doesn't come together, and wrapping up the scenario in a nice tight little package leaves out way too much stuff, too many questions imo.

edited for s/v agmt.
I just had to share my appreciation for that phrase. :)
That's what I always hope for though it isn't always realistic.


'edit: needed for posting after my bed time.
 
Agreed, imo LE found a lot. We don't know what, and I certainly don't think it's nefarious on the part of the victims, but it sure looks like there were some trails to follow that hopefully led LE to fitting these pieces together.

What I hope from all of this is that whatever the outcome, there's a fair trial, justice served to the right person/people, and big BARD, go big or go home BARD, so that there are no lingering questions. That's just me.

What I find interesting is not that LE researched the victims' accounts - that's expected - but they added three other parties and then, after the initial round of warrants, they expanded to so many more financial institutions and added more parties, and assuming that the parties who were added are living, definitely needed PC and it looks like there's some good info LE has followed. Add to that other warrants, and it's just interesting to wonder who/what/where/why/how because right now, it doesn't come together. That is just what bugs me about this case. It doesn't come together, and wrapping up the scenario in a nice tight little package leaves out way too much stuff, too many questions imo.

edited for s/v agmt.
What is left out?
MOO all their dealings shoud have to be throroughly searched.
 
What is left out?
MOO all their dealings shoud have to be throroughly searched.
Not much got left out, this has been an incredibly thorough investigation, take a look at all these LE organizations involved before the arrest. And note some Warrants go back to January 2021, and Warrants were still going out to companies after arrest. LE continues to investigate, the investigation doesn't stop upon arrest.

You want something interesting to think about, think about the possibility of BK having stalked the victims, or one of them, possibly before moving to WA. And then maybe choosing to go to grad school deliberately near the lady he was stalking. KG was a crime buff and was involved in crime groups, maybe BK saw her through one of them. I don't understand why he stayed so close to home for Community College and his 4 year College but then took off clear across the country for his PHD. Just a possibility, of which LE will get to the bottom of.

Assistant Chief - Washington State University Police Department
Idaho State Police (ISP)
Idaho State Police Forensics Services
Idaho State Police Detectives
Moscow Police Department Officers (MPD)
WSU Police
FBI Agents
FBI Forensic Examiner - 35 years with LE and 12 years with the FBI
Moscow Police Department Sergeant - 22 years with previous homicide investigations
Latah County Sheriff's Deputy Corporal (CPL)
Technical Specialists from all LE organizations
Technical Specialist in digital devices
Technical Specialist in digital media

Cell Site Location Information (CSLI)
Cellular Analysis Survey Team (CAST)
Idaho State Crime Lab
Othram (Genetics)

 
Last edited:
The court documents also revealed Funke’s interview with Kohberger’s team will take place “in lieu” of providing testimony during the 28-year-old quadruple murder suspect’s preliminary hearing in two months.

“The basis for this stipulation is that BETHANY GRACE FUNKE, through her attorney, has agreed to an interview with Idaho defense counsel in Reno, Nevada, in lieu of proceeding forward with the subpoena for Preliminary Hearing now set June 26 through June 30, 2023,” the court documents, dated Wednesday, April 26, read.


OKAY, SO I GOT CONFUSED WITH THE WORDING---NEVERMIND.....:oops:

No worries. I'm sure it's your first mistake and you won't have any others. I appreciate your prompt reply. TYVM
 
Just spitballing here, and so speculation/IMOO: the sealed warrants (and perhaps some of those with redacted information) could be related to the Brady-Giglio issue/internal affairs (IA) investigation discussed in the media a month or so ago.

Prosecutors disclose internal affairs investigation of officer involved in Idaho college murders case

"Nationwide, some prosecutors and law enforcement agencies keep "Brady Lists" of officers who can be excluded from testimony or investigations for reasons that could deem them untrustworthy.

Idaho keeps a statewide record database for police, corrections and other law enforcement officers who have been decertified under the Brady/Giglio rulings, maintained by the Idaho Peace Officer Standards and Training division. These infractions can range from lying, code of ethics violations, inappropriate relationships and misdemeanor and felony convictions. Since 2015, there have been 396 officers placed on the list, according to the online database."


Acknowledging the LEO who is the subject of the IA may be being investigated for an unrelated case and they may end up being cleared, but they could also be being investigated for this case and be deemed untrustworthy.

Perhaps these tandem investigations (IA and the investigation of the 4 murders) had some interlocking parts and pieces that LE did not know about at first, and now they know and they are still being sorted out.

JMO. Time will tell...
Could be, especially if LE were undertaking multiple parallel investigations of possible POIs based on evolving and widespread investigations. We have to remember that warrants for BK phone account with AT&T were not gained until 23rd December. The one for BK historical phone pings remains sealed IMO, whilst the second and third for the 24 hours surrounding the night and the AT&T geo fence warrant are partially redacted. Some of the earliest sealed warrants may be for vehicles parked and searching 1122 itself as others lived there besides the deceased victims. Reasons for sealing and motions to seal at the time would probably relate to privacy for the residents both living and deceased. Those reasons would still stand at this juncture. Others may have been for living victims' phones and inner circle phones owned by early POIs. I believe LE were extremely thorough in following all possible leads and angles both before and after BK came on the radar. I believe that because many warrants not related directly to the deceased victims' are worded as having found probable cause related to the investigation of the crime (not directly to the crime), that PC could have been found through detectives presenting sealed affidavits re investigative procedure. This would have evolved after suspect vehicle 1 was identified in the later weeks of November. A complicted investigation, multiplied x 4. The number of warrants does not surprise at all. MOO

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest - source to warrants
 
Could be, especially if LE were undertaking multiple parallel investigations of possible POIs based on evolving and widespread investigations. We have to remember that warrants for BK phone account with AT&T were not gained until 23rd December. The one for BK historical phone pings remains sealed IMO, whilst the second and third for the 24 hours surrounding the night and the AT&T geo fence warrant are partially redacted. Some of the earliest sealed warrants may be for vehicles parked and searching 1122 itself as others lived there besides the deceased victims. Reasons for sealing and motions to seal at the time would probably relate to privacy for the residents both living and deceased. Those reasons would still stand at this juncture. Others may have been for living victims' phones and inner circle phones owned by early POIs. I believe LE were extremely thorough in following all possible leads and angles both before and after BK came on the radar. I believe that because many warrants not related directly to the deceased victims' are worded as having found probable cause related to the investigation of the crime (not directly to the crime), that PC could have been found through detectives presenting sealed affidavits re investigative procedure. This would have evolved after suspect vehicle 1 was identified in the later weeks of November. A complicted investigation, multiplied x 4. The number of warrants does not surprise at all. MOO

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest - source to warrants
Totally agree, LE doing their job.
 
If any of the housemates ate their food either from DD or Grub Truck that might narrow things down? Not the most scientific method but might indicate something.

Determining time of death is hardly ever exact. It's a time frame usually, based on a number of factors, including stomach contents, has rigor mortis set in, body temperature, etc.

Digestion and stomach contents is used frequently to narrow down the window, though because it won't get you exact time, it's ripe for defense to tear it apart at trial. Grub Truck would have caused problems. If it was observed that Kaylee and Maddie definitely ate their GT food before bed AND their stomachs were completely empty at death but food was still in their digestive tract, then someone could deduce their death probably occurred at least 2-4 hours after their meal. If there's no food at all in their digestive tract, then the timeframe starts later, like at least 4-6ish hours since their meal. But people digest food differently and some people have gastric emptying dysfunction that will either speed up or slow down how quickly food makes its way through the digestive tract.

Xana's case could be interesting. If she was observed eating (and I don't think she was since the survivors were reportedly in their own rooms at this time) and food was found having not even started the actual digestive process, then one could say she died while eating and/or immediately after.

Could bruising be an indicator? Specifically would marks or bruises on the first victim be at a different stage/state than marks or bruises on the last victim?

No, because they were stabbed within moments of each other. It's possible not all of them died immediately, but I believe earlier MSM reports were that they did. Level of bruising should be similar and if not, could be accounted for by something else. Usually, bruising only helps when there's a gap in the injuries and/or times of the death between victims, and even then, it usually won't pinpoint time of death so much as say this person died days before the other person.
 
I don't understand why he stayed so close to home for Community College and his 4 year College but then took off clear across the country for his PHD. Just a possibility, of which LE will get to the bottom of.
<snipped for focus>

It is quite common for people to study locally or regionally as an undergraduate, but then if they plan to pursue graduate work in their chosen field, then people apply to graduate programs across the country based on their major and the doctoral programs that best meet the specialized focus of their major. And often the decision is made on the basis of what is offered, such as tuition waiver, housing, etc. Often a person will select the university based on a particular faculty member who they want to serve as their advisor as s/he is an expert in the area they want to specialize in.

So not unusual at all for BK to study locally at the undergrad level and then attend WSU at the graduate level.
 
Since the Mirror is based in the U.K., I believe that their ‘first floor’ is our ‘second floor.’ So, I’m guessing that:

1: the affidavit is the one we all know so well.

2: Mirror mixed up DM with BF

3: Mirror removed the dark clothes because, well, nakedness makes a better story. Likewise for run vs walk.

MOO, of course
Spot on. MOO
 
Spot on. MOO
In this context, I believe the Mirror is referring to the Affidavit by the investigator for the defense, Mr Richard Bitonti, in support of the (now defunct) subpeona which required BF to attend the PH in Idaho in late June.

This affidavit makes no reference to a naked man witnessed by BF.

Exhibit 3 of below.

There is no hidden section to Bitonti's affidavit, it is the complete document as provided to BF's lawyer Kelli Anne Villoria. Ms Villoria makes this very clear in her motion to quash the subpeona.


So, did the Mirror invent this B..it? Yes, IMO.
 
In this context, I believe the Mirror is referring to the Affidavit by the investigator for the defense, Mr Richard Bitonti, in support of the (now defunct) subpeona which required BF to attend the PH in Idaho in late June.

This affidavit makes no reference to a naked man witnessed by BF.

Exhibit 3 of below.

There is no hidden section to Bitonti's affidavit, it is the complete document as provided to BF's lawyer Kelli Anne Villoria. Ms Villoria makes this very clear in her motion to quash the subpeona.


So, did the Mirror invent this B..it? Yes, IMO.
It is a good question. I doubt they invented completely. That notion came from somewhere in my opinion. But it certainly didn't come from the affidavit.
 
You’re right—nothing in the PCA about any of the victims being clothed or unclothed. So that’s possible.

However, one of my current theories is that the article is AI written, and incorporates what’s called AI hallucinations—untruths stated confidently.

MOO
Aware of not wanting to go off topic, but that is fascinating about AI 'hallucinations'. Is that the term that is used in the field by comp science/IT to describe a malfunction - (assuming a premise that one wants their AI program to at least report basic facts accurately).MOO
 
Where did the "BF's lawyer is a public defender" concept come from? All I see in the docs are this:

"Comes now, KELLI ANNE VILORIA, counsel for BETHANY GRACE FUNKE, and respectfully moves to quash the Foreign Subpoena Out of State Commission obtained byEvelyn Grosenick, Interim Washoe County Public Defender on behalf of Defendant, BRYAN C. KOHBERGER for preliminary hearing in this case."

Did someone misread and think the Public Defender part applied to Viloria instead of BK's public defender?
Absolutely, IMO from just reading the previous thread someone misread. The PD here is someone from Washoe County office whose duty was to deliver the out of state subpeona to BF's lawyer in Nevada on behalf of the defendant. MOO
 
In other cases, devices such as smartwatches have been used to narrow down ToD. In the lab, there are new techniques involve cellular evidence that determine cause of death. Obviously, there are the old but less accurate mainstays such as analysis of stomach contents. Circumstantial evidence has been used as well to give a ToD window, as in this case.

I believe that if these various things didn't all line up to the same approximate time (no method is going to give ToD down to the minute), the Defense would be in Court with a motion to dismiss.

So I prefer to believe that at least two of these methods show the same approximate ToD. Since we know Xana had likely eaten some of her DoorDash order, that would be studied, along with the food truck meal eaten by Kaylee and Maddie. If the window give by that analysis doesn't embrace the hours of 3-5 am, that would contradict the State's view of ToD. If even one victim was wearing a smartwatch, that should give a much more specific ToD.

Some other methods for estimating would involve degree of coagulation/drying of blood in the house.

Thanatochemistry (using biochemical products of the body to include time of death) is multi-pronged, but measuring potassium in the vitreous humor is a widespread technique ( Vitreous humor endogenous compounds analysis for post-mortem forensic investigation ) that has been in use for at least 15 years. Using body temperature is another method, which has lots of data involving ambient temperature vs. temperature of a cooling body to work with.

The post-mortem interval can be reliably determined up to 24 h after death, or when the body temperature cools to the ambient temperature...( Listos et al. in Forensic Science International, Vol. 289. pp 124-129)

I've pondered whether the murderer opened the lower door to the house to cool the house down and whether they may also have turned off the heater. Still, it takes up to 24 hours for even a smaller body to completely cool off (in winter temperatures, the window might be 12 hours instead). That's why using other methods, such as the newer methods in the article below, is more common:


The proteins involved in cell death are sampled from various parts of the body; the system is one of the most accurate. It's been around for about 10 years, but most books in criminology forensics don't mention it, one is more likely to encounter it in a course of study of pathology or forensic anthropology. IMO

At any rate, if the time given by those methods doesn't line up with the time where BK's car was at the house, I do believe the Defense would file a motion to dismiss.

JMO.
 
What is left out?
MOO all their dealings shoud have to be throroughly searched.

I think several of us could propose scenarios that make it all come together (what is known so far, including the expansion of the search warrants).

But there's more than one scenario and it would be complete speculation without knowing exactly who the three extra people on the financial warrants might be (two scenarios come immediately to mind).

IMO.
 
I think several of us could propose scenarios that make it all come together (what is known so far, including the expansion of the search warrants).

But there's more than one scenario and it would be complete speculation without knowing exactly who the three extra people on the financial warrants might be (two scenarios come immediately to mind).

IMO.
I would be very interested in the "two scenarios" you speculate, IYO...
 

Media coalition challenges gag order again in Idaho slayings​

Associated Press | Story by By REBECCA BOONE | May 2, 2023

"BOISE, Idaho (AP) — A coalition of 30 news organizations launched another effort Monday to get a gag order lifted in the criminal case of a man accused of stabbing four University of Idaho students to death.

The coalition, which includes The Associated Press, had asked the Idaho Supreme Court earlier this year to reject the gag order issued in the criminal case against Bryan Kohberger, contending it violates the First Amendment rights of a free press. The order prohibits attorneys, prosecutors, law enforcement agencies and others involved in the case from talking to the news media unless they are quoting directly from a court document.
...
But last week the Idaho Supreme Court unanimously denied the request, saying the news groups should have first asked the lower court to have the order lifted. The Supreme Court justices did not weigh in on whether the gag order violates First Amendment rights.
...
Now, the media coalition has challenged the gag order at the lower court level."


Media coalition challenges gag order again in Idaho slayings
 
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