4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #78

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I consider nuance in pretty much everything. People, in general, are rarely "black and white." ! I also wonder why so many people are determined to believe that BK is the murderer. He may be, but why the insistence to "convict" on partial evidence or on the increasingly common assurance that, "LE has more that we'll see at the hearing..."

I enjoy the discussions and deep dives into what we know, but I don't feel the need to declare BK guilty or not guilty based on incomplete information.


Yes. How are there so many videos of this white car, but visuals of the license plate?

Very true, but I think the question some are raising is that the person who identified the car is a 35-yr vet, not your garden variety web sleuth. @Montecore1 was able to point out several differences between the models the FBI agent told LE to look for and the 2015 model BK owns, yet the FBI agent did not make the distinction. IMO, that seems less like a mistake by a LE veteran and more a matter of unclear videos.

I'm amazed and intrigued that there does not seem to be video or photo evidence of the car's back plate. I am making the assumption that no such evidence exists (1.) because LE requested info on the driver of a white Elantra rather than using license plate info to identify the owner of the car.

My opinions are based on what know now and what we have court documentation to support (as much as we can around seals and redactions), not what LE might have later.

This is so important. BK's DNA on the knife sheath found at the murder scene does not automatically = BK was at the murder scene.

I find that hard to believe LE would attempt to flush out a known person of interest suspected of committing a mass homicide. And certainly not with purposely incorrect information. If they really thought he was the killer, unless they were tailing him 24/7, allowing him to come to them would have put potentially put other people in danger.

'The mistaken model year will likely be of little to no consequence if other pieces of evidence tie BK to the murders. However, as a juror, if his car was the chain that linked BK to that house on the night of 11/13, the year difference would absolutely be a big deal.


That letter makes me, once again, question if BK was actually fired. The supposed firing was a little over a week before the "you've been trespassed" notice. The notice coincides with the PCA and BK's arrest. At that point, WSU does not know if he will be released on bond, so they want to make sure he does not return to campus if released. They do know that he has an apartment on campus. There is mention of an incident, but there is no date attached or specific reference to anything that happened prior to his arrest, no, "as stated previously in our ----- meeting on ...etc."


It doesn't appear, from reading the LE documents, including BK's office warrant, that WSU notified LE that BK no longer worked there. Of course, they did not have to do that, but I'd think they would have under the circumstances. LE may have searched it anyway, but perhaps not considering that they didn't bother searching the storage unit due to its apparent lack of use. If WSU did fire him, would they have cleared his space of any personal or proprietary items and told LE when they asked for the keys?

'All JMO, of course.

Thank you for this excellent post! I agree with everything especially “I don’t feel the need to declare BK guilty or not guilty based on incomplete information”

I also really appreciate the deep dives some have taken into the various warrants- Sister golden hair, Nila Aella and several others. I don’t have time to read every document and appreciate ALL the discussion and expertise of the many talented posters.
 
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He also seems to have established a record of being a pretty godawful driver.
He does seem to be a bad driver. However, what he got stopped for in the last posted clip involved a maneuver that is definitely not illegal in every state even if it is illegal in the state of Washington. It is not illegal to pull into an intersection when waiting to make a left turn in NC and doesn't appear to be in PA. (Oncoming traffic would have the right of way, of course.) But LE told BK that move was illegal in Washington. Apparently you have to stay behind the stop line and can't move into the intersection at all until the full left turn can be made. (Not sure how one ever turns left under those circumstances!) He also technically ran a red light when he finally made the turn so two violations.
JMO
 
They also found stains on a pillow/pillowcase and mattress cover IIRC. Both were positive for blood but could very well be BKs own.

Initially I was horrified when I read the list of swabs until I saw they were all negative. Then just a bit grossed out. I don't recall anything about a shower curtain. Maybe the shower had a door? JMO I don't think BK would have intentionally mixed up his own shower curtain with evidence of the crime but then again he did a number of other careless things.
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Please forgive if this has already been posted. IMO, it's very strange that there is no shower curtain....
 
The results of the 2 things tested that are presumptive positive for blood were BK's pillow and mattress pad he left behind (cuttings taken from them).

If the blood stains are his and can be dated as reasonably fresh (November - December timeframe), which seems reasonable, IMO, this fits with speculation that he sustained injuries during the alleged stabbings of Kaylee, Maddie, Xana and Ethan.

Blood from his wounds could have leaked onto his bedding after the murders until the wounds healed up.

Snipped by me for focus. Or, BK could have cut him shaving for all we know. Until we know how much blood was found, there's really no way for us to know what the blood was from. I find blood on his pillow to be much less suspicious than if he had blood anywhere else in his apartment. JMO.
 
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Please forgive if this has already been posted. IMO, it's very strange that there is no shower curtain....
Does seem odd but if the apt didn't come with one... I know once I had water leaking from my bathroom ceiling in an apt. I ran upstairs and the 2 college men who lived above me hadn't gotten around to buying a curtain even though they'd lived there over a month. And for all we know, BK had a "thing" about shower curtains.
JMO
 
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Please forgive if this has already been posted. IMO, it's very strange that there is no shower curtain....

Reporting my own post because I don't know if it's allowed. But we heard early on that BK may have had OCD tendencies, based on what an aunt told MSM. If this is true, it fits with no shower curtain. Some patients feel shower curtains are a breeding ground for bacteria and germs and choose not to have one or change it very frequently (like weekly).
 
BTW - Excellent post U.N. Known. I've snipped a few points to keep this response under a page lol, but I agree with what you've said here. <modsnip> There are few givens in this case, and it will be even trickier in court. Based on what we know now, at this time, I don't see BARD, so I'm really inclined to question.

Yes. How are there so many videos of this white car, but visuals of the license plate?

True. I agree. That 3-point turn comment was part of a sequence of posts. There are no videos with a license plate that we know of. There are multiple videos of a white car identified as an 2011-2013 Elantra and then later as a 2011-2016 Elantra. That's it.

That letter makes me, once again, question if BK was actually fired.

Good point. I should not have used those words. Regardless, the notice re trespass is not IMO the reason for the total seal.


Apparently you have to stay behind the stop line and can't move into the intersection at all until the full left turn can be made. (Not sure how one ever turns left under those circumstances!) He also technically ran a red light when he finally made the turn so two violations.
And from someone who has driven in WA for years, let me just say that I've never seen that rule followed People are in line all dxmned day in the intersection, and running the red en masse seems to be a hobby. I was honestly surprised she'd even bother to stop him for that because I see it all day every day.
 
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The same specialist was able to identify the correct year of BKs car as a 2014-2016 model in WSU video that LE obtained. (PCA page 7).

Investigators were given access to video footage on the Washington State University (WSU) campus located in Pullman, WA. A review of that video indicated that at approximately 2:44 a.m. on November 13,2022, a white sedan, which was consistent with the description of the White Elantra known as Suspect Vehicle 1, was observed on WSU surveillance cameras travelling north on southeast Nevada Street at northeast Stadium Way. At approximately 2:53 a.m., a white sedan, which is consistent with the description of the White Elantra known as Suspect Vehicle 1, was observed traveling southeast on Nevada Street in Pullman, WA towards SR 270. SR 270 connects Pullman, Washington to Moscow, Idaho.

This camera footage from Pullman, WA was provided to the same FBI Forensic Examiner. The Forensic Examiner identified the vehicle observed in Pullman, WA as being a 2014-2016 Hyundai Elantra.

IMO His car is identifiable as a 2014-2016 Elantra (by an expert).

At King, the car made four appearances, tried to park, a three point turn, and was seen leaving. (PCA)
Why leave the range 2011-2016? The car is not on a highway going fast in front of King Road and it made a three point turn - which should show different angles. Poor camera capability? Poor lighting? Poor camera capability and poor lighting together? Not the same car? Maybe some of the "was seen" statements refer to someone seeing the car instead of a camera capture of the movement? I can't think of any other reasons that account for the difference (from an expert) between the WSU captures and the King captures. JMO
 
I don't doubt for a moment that the Defense will try to make something of the auto misidentification.

But surely there has never been a criminal case of any complexity where there wasn't also evidence that was at some point misunderstood. The only difference in the Idaho 4 case is that the BOLO issued by Moscow LE allowed all of us to see the error.

I think a skilled prosecutor will be able to handle such a stratagem. It won't just be a case of "on second look", but of third, fourth, 80th and 105th look as well. And it won't necessarily just be one auto expert, but two or several or even more.

If the best the Defense can do is "at one point early in the case LE misidentified the year of the car", then BK should seriously consider any plea bargain, if one is offered.

(ETA I'm not saying the prosecution of BK will be a "slam dunk". How would anyone know at this point? I just can't think of a case where a jury acquitted because "somebody in LE" made a miscall at some point in the past, an error that was later corrected.)

IMO there's a lot of room there, but we each get our own opinion. I do want to clarify that I never said, nor would I be so obtuse as to think, that his defense would hang on the year of the car nor did I say this would be the best the defense can do. I said that this will be a point to be made. One of many IMO. But who knows? None of us really, and that is the point of hearing different POV.
 
FWIW. When you start on page 151 of the document, the trespass letter makes more sense. As in it appears to be directly tied to WCU PD and their investigation / assistance with investigation. It seems like it's all there in black and white, so like you've pointed out, if's highly unlikely that the sealed warrant has anything to do with the trespass letter. Just MOO after reading posts and the document.

Edited to add the link to the document:

Thank you for highlighting that. I haven't gone through the whole 160ish pages*, just checked out the referenced trespass letter. I'll take a look, but I'm sure I agree with your assessment. Pretty much obvious imo that the letter is not the reason for the sealed warrant/affidavit. The court could easily have redacted a warrant and left his name in it as they did so many others and just redacted any sensitive info within it. The affidavit is another matter entirely since it would lay out the trail we can't see yet (I curse them all lol!)

*I actually have a more-than FT day job, so I'm going to have to start a Go Fund Me so I can take a leave and focus solely on this case lol (<<teasing obviously about the Go Fund Me probably ;) )
 
dbm
They also found stains on a pillow/pillowcase and mattress cover IIRC. Both were positive for blood but could very well be BKs own.

Initially I was horrified when I read the list of swabs until I saw they were all negative. Then just a bit grossed out. I don't recall anything about a shower curtain. Maybe the shower had a door? JMO I don't think BK would have intentionally mixed up his own shower curtain with evidence of the crime but then again he did a number of other careless things.
 
That letter makes me, once again, question if BK was actually fired. The supposed firing was a little over a week before the "you've been trespassed" notice. The notice coincides with the PCA and BK's arrest. At that point, WSU does not know if he will be released on bond, so they want to make sure he does not return to campus if released. They do know that he has an apartment on campus. There is mention of an incident, but there is no date attached or specific reference to anything that happened prior to his arrest, no, "as stated previously in our ----- meeting on ...etc."


It doesn't appear, from reading the LE documents, including BK's office warrant, that WSU notified LE that BK no longer worked there. Of course, they did not have to do that, but I'd think they would have under the circumstances. LE may have searched it anyway, but perhaps not considering that they didn't bother searching the storage unit due to its apparent lack of use. If WSU did fire him, would they have cleared his space of any personal or proprietary items and told LE when they asked for the keys?

Now you've got me wondering about whether he was actually fired... I believed the myriad versions of this article from other sources but...


Re the storage unit, I believe they did search it. They got a search warrant via phone for it. Pages 22 and 23. Edited to add they did search the storage unit - see page 154 and thank you to @maconrich for pointing me to those documents and encouraging me to waste half the morning again :)
 
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The same specialist was able to identify the correct year of BKs car as a 2014-2016 model in WSU video that LE obtained. (PCA page 7).

Investigators were given access to video footage on the Washington State University (WSU) campus located in Pullman, WA. A review of that video indicated that at approximately 2:44 a.m. on November 13,2022, a white sedan, which was consistent with the description of the White Elantra known as Suspect Vehicle 1, was observed on WSU surveillance cameras travelling north on southeast Nevada Street at northeast Stadium Way. At approximately 2:53 a.m., a white sedan, which is consistent with the description of the White Elantra known as Suspect Vehicle 1, was observed traveling southeast on Nevada Street in Pullman, WA towards SR 270. SR 270 connects Pullman, Washington to Moscow, Idaho.

This camera footage from Pullman, WA was provided to the same FBI Forensic Examiner. The Forensic Examiner identified the vehicle observed in Pullman, WA as being a 2014-2016 Hyundai Elantra.

IMO His car is identifiable as a 2014-2016 Elantra (by an expert).

At King, the car made four appearances, tried to park, a three point turn, and was seen leaving. (PCA)
Why leave the range 2011-2016? The car is not on a highway going fast in front of King Road and it made a three point turn - which should show different angles. Poor camera capability? Poor lighting? Poor camera capability and poor lighting together? Not the same car? Maybe some of the "was seen" statements refer to someone seeing the car instead of a camera capture of the movement? I can't think of any other reasons that account for the difference (from an expert) between the WSU captures and the King captures. JMO
Why leave the range at 2011 -2016 for suspect vehicle 1? Because that was what the specialist/s was/were able to determine from the footage on Queen Street, Wallenta Drive and the two captures east of Moscow (Styner and Indian Hills Drive) on the night, IMO. IMO LE were almost certainly looking at other elantra drivers whose cars were within the model range. I've speculated re due diligence in other posts so won't repeat here. MOO

I noticed this too and would take a guess that N/E Stadium Way in down town Pullman had better lighting. I've noticed how incredibly dark Queen Street was after viewing video of the police attending the door complaint (video posted upthread or in last thread). It was pitch black and there appeared to be no street lighting whatsoever. Maybe angle/quality of neigbour ring cameras etc presented further difficulties. So IMO, that is likely the reason. But whatever the reason, the specialist/s could only identify what they could identify. So IMO the range for suspect vehicle 1 remained at 2011 to 2016, with front number plate appearing to be absent (from camera captures on Styner and Indian Hills drive as it made its way to Queen Street). IMO, the specialist must have had a clearer view or whatever the condition of the footage was to Id the year of the car leaving and returning to Pullman as a 2014-2016 elantra. MOO

I don't think any of the sightings referred to in the PCA are referencing sightings by people because the section more or less falls under a section that is introduced with a short explanation about the techniques of video canvassing. Also an eye witness account would most likely be far less reilable re make, model and year than a camera capture that can be studied in detail. MOO
 
Now you've got me wondering about whether he was actually fired... I believed the myriad versions of this article from other sources but...


Re the storage unit, I believe they did search it. They got a search warrant via phone for it. Pages 22 and 23. Edited to add they did search the storage unit - see page 154 and thank you to @maconrich for pointing me to those documents and encouraging me to waste half the morning again :)
:D :D
 
But that's exactly the point, right? I, for one, am not blaming the FBI for getting it wrong initially. I'm saying the fact that they got it wrong initially (for whatever reason -- little difference in the two models, glare, bad video, etc), is in the defense's favor. JMO
Mmmm...maybe. How's that for taking a firm stand? LOL I was amazed by the list of differences @Montecore1 put together, so I'll really need to concede I'm not the best person to decide just how different a 2015 is from a 2016. Or a 2013.

So I started thinking about this from another direction. Just the other day, a poster reminded us that LE was already focusing on BK as early as 11/29 and that's true. The WSU officer ran BK's plates on the night of the 28th, realized BK's general description fit the UNSUB, saw the plate change from PA to WA and turned it in. Payne found the earlier traffic stop, got his cell # and a warrant for his cell phone records. I couldn't find the date of the cell phone warrant. I thought I bookmarked a list of all that but I can't find it.

Were the police making their case in secret while allowing the public to think they knew nothing more than a model of car? I believe that's possible. With the press circling like hyenas, I can certainly see how LE might realize they are better off to let the public think they are still looking for one of 22000 cars. Remember how Chief Fry kept emphasizing that? By refusing to admit more, the press could not hound them endlessly for more details that might alert BK the net is closing.

So, although I understand that the model year issue could be seen as an opportunity for the defense, I think there is a good chance we'll eventually learn that LE was focused on BK exclusively during at least part of the period where nothing new appeared to be happening and the press had nothing else to report on but LE looking at this sea of white Elantras. It gave the press something to "yap" about and protected LE from having to answer more specific questions about their investigation. We shall see. :) MOOooo
 
Mmmm...maybe. How's that for taking a firm stand? LOL I was amazed by the list of differences @Montecore1 put together, so I'll really need to concede I'm not the best person to decide just how different a 2015 is from a 2016. Or a 2013.

So I started thinking about this from another direction. Just the other day, a poster reminded us that LE was already focusing on BK as early as 11/29 and that's true. The WSU officer ran BK's plates on the night of the 28th, realized BK's general description fit the UNSUB, saw the plate change from PA to WA and turned it in. Payne found the earlier traffic stop, got his cell # and a warrant for his cell phone records. I couldn't find the date of the cell phone warrant. I thought I bookmarked a list of all that but I can't find it.

Were the police making their case in secret while allowing the public to think they knew nothing more than a model of car? I believe that's possible. With the press circling like hyenas, I can certainly see how LE might realize they are better off to let the public think they are still looking for one of 22000 cars. Remember how Chief Fry kept emphasizing that? By refusing to admit more, the press could not hound them endlessly for more details that might alert BK the net is closing.

So, although I understand that the model year issue could be seen as an opportunity for the defense, I think there is a good chance we'll eventually learn that LE was focused on BK exclusively during at least part of the period where nothing new appeared to be happening and the press had nothing else to report on but LE looking at this sea of white Elantras. It gave the press something to "yap" about and protected LE from having to answer more specific questions about their investigation. We shall see. :) MOOooo
The phone data warrants weren't attained until 23 December. I believe that LE were almost certainly conducting due diligence for much of DEcember re elantra drivers, including following up on tips from the public. IMO, yes, they also were looking at BK in parallel and did not want to alarm him as more evidence (such as video footage on a 2014-2016 elantra leaving and returning to Pullman in the am of 13th Nov) came to light. MOO but I do not think LE were lying about following up on white elantras at the time.

ETA: All MOO

edited spelling
 
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Please forgive if this has already been posted. IMO, it's very strange that there is no shower curtain....
If I understand correctly, Kohberger did not use the second bedroom and maybe that's why it was locked. Was the lease for a year or only for the semester? Upon losing his TA position, he lost his tuition benefit. Given that there were little possessions left in the residence and he had cleaned out the separate storage unit, do you believe that he had any intention of returning? But didn't he leave his computer?
 
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