4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 74

[10ofRods]

Also, Ka-bar knives are made from 1095 Chrome/Vanadium plain tool steel with a Rockwell Hardness of 56-58 HRC. Apparently the tip is prone to breaking off and it has that black epoxy powder-coating which can wear off.

As a basis of comparison, Buck knives are made from 420HC stainless steel which also has a Rockwell Hardness of 56-58 HRC.

MOO

That's fascinating (and even better, from the point of view of narrowing down the knife - if such a profile is gotten from the forensic radiology).

The chromium and vanadium (particularly the vanadium) are very rare. I assume Ka-Bar's "recipe" is slightly different than all other similar recipes. If it was relatively new, then that black epoxy coating is extremely interesting and makes me hopeful.

I would think, at a minimum, that forensic radiology would narrow down the knife type to just a couple of manufacturers, but I wouldn't be surprised if it could narrow it down to a particular brand, even to a factory.

From the FBI's POV, this is an excellent opportunity to bring together specialists in several fields, across a few states.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

If you had a delivery you hadn't ordered, wouldn't you say something when it arrived?

Ours are just dropped off on the porch. I never see my DoorDash/GrubHub driver. They go back to their car and text me that the food has arrived (although I am watching on the app and can see them come to the door - so for us, that's redundant).

We have gotten food not intended for us (were told to either eat it or toss it - they had to get a new order for the other people). We have also had our own food go missing, etc.

I didn't know that anyone ever interacts with DoorDash drivers, there's a box right on the app to check "Just drop it off."

 

[jepop]

I haven't made it to the end of the thread, so forgive me if this has been covered: the 2nd page of the PCA wasn't redacted. There was a blank page inserted in the version released in Idaho--the ones with the roommates initials instead of their names. An official mentioned that. If you look at it, the wording continues to the next page without a break.

The version released when the PA search warrant was released has the full document without the "redacted" page with no whiteout and initials. The roommates full names are listed as Officer Payne wrote them.

Good to know. Any chance of providing a good link to where the official mentioned the insertion of the blank page? Would be good to put what appears to be unsupported alternate versions to bed once and for all, at least on this site. MOO

 

[jepop]

Moscow Police: 4 dead at home near University of Idaho campus; investigation continues

Four people were found dead at a home near the University of Idaho around midday Sunday, and police are looking for witnesses in what they're calling a homicide investigation.

www.spokesman.com

Thankyou. The photo in this article shows the deck of the relevant neighbours house I think (second of five photos), however the camera shown near the door is not the one I'm thinking of. There is another camera high up the wall on the south side of the wall, just uner the roof line. That picture might be in the media thread or amongts photos attached to posts in previous threads. MOO

 

[schooling]

I've thought little about the cameras other than the one that caught the thud and dog barking in the house the night of the murders.

This is really just me thinking out loud. The area is known for parties. LE was called to the victim's house multiple times for noise complaints. Would the neighbor's camera pick up all of that constant noise? Recording constantly? I doubt any of this is relevant, but considering the apparent, regular, loud noises emanating from that home and possibly others, IMO, it seems a bit much to have it set for that level of sensitivity.

Yes. Those cameras are not like the ones that we’ve become accustomed to lately. With constant motion detections and noisy alerts to our phones. So they are not really being bothered.

Out of the box they are more passive. They record on an almost constant basis for motion and sound. With the idea being that you only review it when you have a reason to. Most of the setups that use those type of cameras record over local network IP but store locally on hard drives. Providing you with access from outside of the house via the IP your ISP assigns to you and a local HTTP server via a port. Depending on how much storage you have the software that runs it will automatically write over older video. There is no monthly cost. No cloud. You pay once and that’s it.

This is out of box of course. And I’m assuming that’s how they still have it set up because doing anything more defeats the purpose. There are ways to setup free email for motion and sound alerts. But Text and push notifications are a lot harder and usually require a service of some sort (Twilio, Pusher).

MOO

 

[schooling]

Ours are just dropped off on the porch. I never see my DoorDash/GrubHub driver. They go back to their car and text me that the food has arrived (although I am watching on the app and can see them come to the door - so for us, that's redundant).

We have gotten food not intended for us (were told to either eat it or toss it - they had to get a new order for the other people). We have also had our own food go missing, etc.

I didn't know that anyone ever interacts with DoorDash drivers, there's a box right on the app to check "Just drop it off."

That box wasn’t a common pattern prior to covid. You’d usually have to explicitly say that in the notes part of your address or call your driver. The reason for this was money lost from misdeliveries. A driver greeting a customer mitigates that. It’s a confirmation that the home is correct and people can’t say they didn’t get it.

When COVID hit some app makers have found that no contact deliveries actually made their drivers more efficient. They could make more deliveries and handle higher volume. Which outweighed the cost of misdeliveries. So now it’s becoming more of the rule rather than the exception.

Not necessarily related but thought I’d share since it’s such an interesting story. I’m a product experience executive in tech.

Oh and we get our stuff delivered to other houses all the time. I thought a bigger number up front and a super detailed note to driver would help but NOPE!

 

[pittsburghgirl]

When BK's vehicle was stopped by LE on his way to PA, it looked to me as if the car was very dirty and had not been cleaned any time recently. I wonder why he wouldn't have washed his car thoroughly inside and out, long before arriving in PA?

He could have cleaned the car after the murders but if the vehicle is stopped in Indiana, just driving it across country could get it dirty on the outside--and full of trash on the inside from eating and drinking in the car.

 

[jepop]

You've perfectly explained my thoughts on the case. Something just seems off. I do think part of the reason we have that "glitch" (I love that) is the missing time between the murders and the 911 call and four hours that passed between the time the 911 call and the time officer Payne arrived on the scene (4 PM per the PCA). The swiftness of the gag order and the notes that revealing some of the information may endanger someone(s) adds to the intrigue.

There were other officers and forensic ISP on the scene when Payne arrived at 4pm, as per PCA. Nothing to suggest that police and investigators had only just arrived. I'm sure that police arrived very soon after the 911 call and began their work. Ofcourse I can't be certain but I think detectives would also have been on the scene by then. Certainly the ISP were. There would have been a lot to do there, including dealing/talking with and helping the survivors.

"On November 13,2022, at approximately 4:00
p.m., Moscow Police Department (MPD)
Sergeant Blaker and I responded to ll22KingRoad,
Moscow, Idaho, hereafter the "King Road
Residence," to assist with scene security and
processing of a crime scene associated with four
homicides. Upon our arrival, the Idaho State Police (lSP) Forensic team was on scene and was'preparing
to begin processing the scene. MPD Officer (OFC)
Smith, one of the initial respondingofficers to
the incident, advised he would walk me through
the scene."

 

[U.N. Known]

Good to know. Any chance of providing a good link to where the official mentioned the insertion of the blank page? Would be good to put what appears to be unsupported alternate versions to bed once and for all, at least on this site. MOO

I don't recall where I saw it, but here are links to both. The first one is what was released to the public at the time of BK's arrest with the Redacted stamp and initials for the roommates. The 2nd link is the PA warrant for the Koberger's house that includes the PCA written by officer Payne. The PCA is Exhibit A in this document.

PCA released in Idaho by Moscow PD with names replaced with initials:

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/122922%20Affidavit%20-%20Exhibit%20A%20-%20Statement%20of%20Brett-Payne.pdf

Full arrest warrant for the Kohberger House with the PCA without alterations: 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 74

 

[Dotta]

That box wasn’t a common pattern prior to covid. You’d usually have to explicitly say that in the notes part of your address or call your driver. The reason for this was money lost from misdeliveries. A driver greeting a customer mitigates that. It’s a confirmation that the home is correct and people can’t say they didn’t get it.

When COVID hit some app makers have found that no contact deliveries actually made their drivers more efficient. They could make more deliveries and handle higher volume. Which outweighed the cost of misdeliveries. So now it’s becoming more of the rule rather than the exception.

Not necessarily related but thought I’d share since it’s such an interesting story. I’m a product experience executive in tech.

Oh and we get our stuff delivered to other houses all the time. I thought a bigger number up front and a super detailed note to driver would help but NOPE!

I always greet a delivery driver and give him a tip

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Exactly. I'm sitting here dealing with a slew of students who "did things in their heads." I don't know what to say about missing papers, improperly constructed theses, etc. Do we simply change our standards for one person? (The answer is often "yes" these days - especially with so many students having "personal education plans" or other accommodations.

Most students, however, see other students in class and obtain some vague notion of their own standing. It's so important. Many a student thinks they are the smartest person in the room - when they are the only person they see (online classes). After a couple of years of online only teaching, I can say that 90% or more of students do not turn on their cameras (nor are they required to). If one calls upon them (as one might do in a real world class), they are simply quiet. Later, they will say they didn't have the bandwidth to do more (and this could be true).

At any rate, even in the regular classroom, students avoid each others' gazes. I had lots of classes where we sat round table style - that's not possible today. The students do not see other students' facial expressions (which can range from concern to eye rolling to astonishment to admiration).

Those are random thoughts about BK's online educational situation - his master's thesis and his inability to adapt to WSU's in person program. He was led to believe, by online learning, that he was okay. But online life is limited and real world experiences (such as being able to speak out loud to a class, if you're going to be a teacher) are extremely important. I hope we don't forget that.

ALL IMO.

I'm many days behind on reading here, but I admire your take on what's going on in classrooms today. I teach a synchronous online class, with students required to be on camera, and I have to remind people every week to turn on the cameras--and then allow the ones DRIVING IN THEIR CARS to turn them off because we are all distracted.

I am not certain that a more realistic experience in the M.A. program would have kept BK from murdering someone, although it might have saved the 4 Idaho students. It appears to me that a percentage of the population thinks killing is a way to resolve conflict or to fulfill some sick inner need. So I'm not sure BK wouldn't have gotten around to stabbing college girls somewhere. For students who aren't on the anti-social personality spectrum, though, there is nothing like really good in-person instruction, especially in seminar-style or workshop settings, where there can be real discussions and/or hands-on learning, with an adult who understands that learning involves struggle and difficulty.

 

[jepop]

I don't recall where I saw it, but here are links to both. The first one is what was released to the public at the time of BK's arrest with the Redacted stamp and initials for the roommates. The 2nd link is the PA warrant for the Koberger's house that includes the PCA written by officer Payne. The PCA is Exhibit A in this document.

PCA released in Idaho by Moscow PD with names replaced with initials:

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/122922%20Affidavit%20-%20Exhibit%20A%20-%20Statement%20of%20Brett-Payne.pdf

Full arrest warrant for the Kohberger House with the PCA without alterations: 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 74

Thanks. Your first link does not include a blank page. I'm not coming up with anything on the second link? Is it the one from the first page of each thread? If you look at this link which is the one posted right here on WS at the beginning of each thread (below) we have a copy with the mistakenly (IMO) reversed blank page between pages 1 and 2. That blank page has been subject to speculations as if it was a deliberately redacted whole second page 2.MOO

122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - 122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne.pdf

pdfhost.io

ETA: Sorry, yeas I can access your second link and like the firss, there is no blank page which is good! I see the problem now, the PCA attached to our threads here contains the copy that has this blank page and probably should be updated. MOO.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Thanks. Your first link does not include a blank page. I'm not coming up with anything on the second link? Is it the one from the first page of each thread? If you look at this link which is the one posted right here on WS at the beginning of each thread (below) we have a copy with the mistakenly (IMO) reversed blank page between pages 1 and 2. That blank page has been subject to speculations as if it was a deliberately redacted whole second page 2.MOO

RSBBM

IMO the page wasn't mistakenly reversed, but rather the "REDACTED" stamp from the first page bled through to the back side, which was otherwise blank.

Then someone (or the copy machine) mistakenly included that page since it wasn't technically entirely blank but rather had the bleedthrough backwards image of the REDACTED stamp.

MOO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

BBM
Maybe but the definition of circumstantial evidence seems pretty clear to me-- an inference must be made. A finger print can be tied to Person X factually but to use that finger print to conclude Person X did Crime Y requires an inference.

I don't know that jurors don't care. I've been on a few juries and unfortunately there is a bias in favor of eyewitness testimony. Jurors leaning towards acquittal will say "but nobody saw him do it." (They apparently haven't taken psychology or studied work by people like Elizabeth Loftus!)

It's also not uncommon to hear a defense attorney says "the case against my client is entirely circumstantial" and that plays into any eyewitness bias jurors have. (It's also a common line in TV shows and some jurors have their ideas about court formed by TV.)
JMO

My answer to "nobody saw him do it" would be "of course not."

 

[NCWatcher]

My answer to "nobody saw him do it" would be "of course not."

That makes logical sense as an answer. But I'm not sure it would convince jurors who have a distrust of indirect "circumstantial" evidence or who want a case proven beyond all doubt. Even on WS sometimes there's a bias against evidence if it's circumstantial (or called circumstantial.) And people here likely know more about criminal trials than the average person called for jury duty.

Still, I admit I was a bit surprised to hear that concern from a fellow juror as we'd heard pretty compelling evidence for 5 full days. But I was more dismayed during another trial to hear "the police wouldn't have arrested him unless he was guilty" from a fellow juror during deliberations. So you never know what people are thinking.
JMO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Kohlberger's Elantra was called in on 11/29.
The DoorDash warrant was served on 12/6.

Those things don't necessarily have to have any relation. It's likely LE was still pursuing any and all leads at that time. Including double and triple checking DoorDash guys' story and to check if any other DoorDash drivers were of interest.

I would think that LE also wanted to know if DD driver(s) saw other cars in the area, and in particular if he saw the Elantra. It would also be important to know if DD driver made other stops or where he was before and after dropping off Xana's food, in order to tighten the timeline and understand any other evidence they have.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

That makes logical sense as an answer. But I'm not sure it would convince jurors who have a distrust of indirect "circumstantial" evidence or who want a case proven beyond all doubt. Even on WS sometimes there's a bias against evidence if it's circumstantial (or called circumstantial.) And people here likely know more about criminal trials than the average person called for jury duty.

Still, I admit I was a bit surprised to hear that concern from a fellow juror as we'd heard pretty compelling evidence for 5 full days. But I was more dismayed during another trial to hear "the police wouldn't have arrested him unless he was guilty" from a fellow juror during deliberations. So you never know what people are thinking.
JMO

Thankfully, "beyond all doubt" isn't the standard. And I agree that some people don't understand either the unreliability of eyewitnesses or the nature of "circumstantial evidence." I think some of the bias against circumstantial evidence comes from TV shows where the defense lawyers are always shouting "It's only circumstantial evidence!" But one time when I was a kid, we had a dog who liked donuts. We also family friend who would stop by, make coffee and have a snack even if we weren't home. One day we came home from a shopping trip and found only 4 powdered donuts in a box that had 8 in it when we left. Was it the friend--or the dog? The circumstantial evidence pointed to the dog--one remaining donut had a canine tooth impression. And no coffee in the pot.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I'm not sure what Nancy Grace said--or was thinking, but Ring cameras are not activated by sound.

Can my indoor camera be set to activate and record on sound from a loud noise?

Hey neighbors. Ring Security Cameras and Video Doorbells do not detect or record based on sound. This feature has been requested before, which you can find on our Feature Request board here. For the Peephole Camera, we have heard feedback to bring this product back as well. You can vote on that...

community.ring.com

The neighbor's Ring camera was triggered by motion--maybe a cat, but not likely. They have sensitivity controls that typically only detect larger moving items, like humans. That keeps them from being triggered constantly.

So, there's something we're not hearing about the Ring audio--such as it has a video to go along with it.

I have a ring camera that often is set off by wind or blowing leaves. Just an observation.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Ours are just dropped off on the porch. I never see my DoorDash/GrubHub driver. They go back to their car and text me that the food has arrived (although I am watching on the app and can see them come to the door - so for us, that's redundant).

We have gotten food not intended for us (were told to either eat it or toss it - they had to get a new order for the other people). We have also had our own food go missing, etc.

I didn't know that anyone ever interacts with DoorDash drivers, there's a box right on the app to check "Just drop it off."

I visit a friend in a large (and nice) apartment building with a population of students and young families, many of whom appear to be grad students. There's a door man. It's amazing how much STUFF they order. The doorman spends a lot of time bringing in Amazon boxes. But there are always DoorDash (etc.) orders just sitting in the outer lobby.

 

[Dotta]

The circumstantial evidence pointed to the dog--one remaining donut had a canine tooth impression. And no coffee in the pot.

I would add:
A "sweet tooth" impression