4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[Cindizzi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661788685967429633

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661788103575580691

 

[MassGuy]

Seems there is more to the PA grand jury convening than just an alibi. There's a thread about the murder of the woman recently discovered in PA on Websleuths - Dana Smithers. Something about a car.........

Don’t buy it. But you’re right, they have something linking him.

 

[10ofRods]

I found an article where they interviewed the woman's sister. An armchair sleuth reached out to her and suggested BK as a possible suspect, and she turned that info over to LE. There is no cause of death for Dana Smithers and BK was not named as a suspect. My take on that article was that they are being thorough so that, if/when they charge someone, that person's attorney can't say they ignored BK as a suspect.

Bryan Kohberger dragged into missing-woman cold case after online sleuths tip off family

University of Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger has been dragged into an investigation into a missing woman, Dana Smithers, who was recently found dead.

nypost.com

I saw that too, and I'm still perplexed by Monroe County decided to subpoena (I assume they did) the parents of BK into a Grand Jury. Surely it wasn't based on the victim's sister's connection to an armchair sleuth. Surely the investigators must have said to themselves, "Hmm, right, let's check that out?" I also find it hard to believe that local LE didn't already have BK on their radar. This sounds like sensationalism, to me.

I agree that they couldn't ignore BK as a suspect, but surely LE could figure that out without the armchair detective? It's crazy to think we could have come to that point in crime investigation. My opinion, obviously.

Entirely possible that this is the future of investigations (crowd-sourcing tips is already a think - and there were 9000 or so tips in the Idaho Four murders, according to recent discovery documents). The only difference here is that the tip went to a family member (which surely has happened before).

IMO.

But, is it a GJ for BK, or a GJ about the murder, and his parents just happen to be witnesses? He hasn't been named as a suspect, or even a person of interest, which I found key. Also, I found this FB post by the area police department and it says very clearly that they have NO evidence that ties him to her disappearance in ANY way. That's why I think they're just formally eliminating him, because he makes a great SODDI candidate for whoever eventually gets charged.

Stroud Area Regional Police Department | East Stroudsburg PA

Stroud Area Regional Police Department, East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania. 14,986 likes · 199 talking about this · 187 were here. Welcome to Stroud Area Regional Police Department's Official Facebook...

www.facebook.com

His parents "just happen" to be witnesses? To what? How did the Kohbergers get drawn into this murder? The only news we have says that it's because the victim's sister mentioned him as a suspect. My point is that BK is clearly being discussed within the GJ, IMO.

I do not think the Kohbergers, from 30-40 miles away are randomly involved in this case, personally. I did not mean to imply that the GJ was raised merely for Kohberger, I thought it was clear from context. There are clearly Kohbergers at the GJ and I can't think of any other reason why they'd be there, except in regards to their son.

I find it very surprising that they'd use a GJ in PA to eliminate all known leads (or even just one known lead) for whom they had no other evidence. Totally different to how GJ's work where I live - but that's always interesting to me. Also different to the Idaho one that indicted BK.

If they have another suspect (for the GJ), then it will make more sense. If we never hear another word about the GJ's findings, it makes less sense to me. Of course, where I live, the GJ has to publish an annual report of its cases and its findings, it cannot remain secret.

IMO.

 

[Erutan]

Warning online sleuths could 'ruin lives' after false Idaho murders allegations

INTERNET sleuths risk ruining the lives of people wrongly accused of crimes and threaten to jeopardize cases, law enforcement experts have warned. Amateur detectives are known for combing through s…

www.the-sun.com

This article describes the danger of social media sleuths accusing innocent people of crimes and ruining lives in the process.

True !

This is my opinion regarding the link only : Tbh, I think neither The Sun (nor the Daily Mail ) is in any position to be lecturing the public about rumors !
They're both considered msm here, but some of their content can be construed as 'tabloid fodder'; and I've winced at some of their articles in the past.

As far as ruining an innocent person's life-- that's certainly happened before (Richard Jewell case), however there was enough evidence to arrest and charge BK, and imo he has done enough already to ruin his life by his own actions ... and the evidence found tying him to a murder scene when he was not a guest at the house and had never been inside that residence before.
At WS we're not considered social media, and most people who read SM understand that it's opinion and largely unverifiable.

My .02 is that it's possible BK has killed before.
To go from maybe a traffic stop to butchering four adults is a leap.
If he hasn't murdered before this, maybe he's attacked women in the past, wearing a disguise and the person couldn't identify him ?

Although again my opinion is that this was motivated more by the 'thrill' (sorry) -- and not necessarily a SA motive ?

Hoping for answers and closure for D. Smither's family.
There is a reason BK's parents were asked to testify under oath, at the grand jury.
Imo.

 

[Erutan]

I saw that too, and I'm still perplexed by Monroe County decided to subpoena (I assume they did) the parents of BK into a Grand Jury. Surely it wasn't based on the victim's sister's connection to an armchair sleuth. Surely the investigators must have said to themselves, "Hmm, right, let's check that out?" I also find it hard to believe that local LE didn't already have BK on their radar. This sounds like sensationalism, to me.

I agree that they couldn't ignore BK as a suspect, but surely LE could figure that out without the armchair detective? It's crazy to think we could have come to that point in crime investigation. My opinion, obviously.

Entirely possible that this is the future of investigations (crowd-sourcing tips is already a think - and there were 9000 or so tips in the Idaho Four murders, according to recent discovery documents). The only difference here is that the tip went to a family member (which surely has happened before).

IMO.



His parents "just happen" to be witnesses? To what? How did the Kohbergers get drawn into this murder? The only news we have says that it's because the victim's sister mentioned him as a suspect. My point is that BK is clearly being discussed within the GJ, IMO.

I do not think the Kohbergers, from 30-40 miles away are randomly involved in this case, personally. I did not mean to imply that the GJ was raised merely for Kohberger, I thought it was clear from context. There are clearly Kohbergers at the GJ and I can't think of any other reason why they'd be there, except in regards to their son.

I find it very surprising that they'd use a GJ in PA to eliminate all known leads (or even just one known lead) for whom they had no other evidence. Totally different to how GJ's work where I live - but that's always interesting to me. Also different to the Idaho one that indicted BK.

If they have another suspect (for the GJ), then it will make more sense. If we never hear another word about the GJ's findings, it makes less sense to me. Of course, where I live, the GJ has to publish an annual report of its cases and its findings, it cannot remain secret.

IMO.

They haven't released how DS was killed, iirc ?
Maybe stabbed ?
Although it's not impossible for a killer to use different methods.
Like Richard Kuklinski.
BK scares me as much as RK.
Imo.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

Don’t buy it. But you’re right, they have something linking him.

How do we KNOW, as a fact, that the PA Grand Jury has subpoenaed BK's parents about DANA SMITHERS??? Couldn't they be questioning them about a different case, and it's been wrongly reported?

 

[TL4S]

If this wasn’t his first murder(s), I’ll eat my hat. He’s an outlier.

I agree, although I don't think it would have been his last...

 

[Nila Aella]

Was looking at grand juries in PA: Apparently they have two types: Investigative and Inditing grand juries: Investigative grand juries look at evidence for potential crimes. MOO

What is a grand jury, and how does it work?

By definition, this process is a one-sided affair; defense lawyers don't have the opportunity to present any evidence or cross-examine witnesses in the grand jury room.

www.pennlive.com

In Pennsylvania, a statewide investigating grand jury is a tool used most often to investigate potential crimes, usually in prosecutor-led probes out of the Attorney General's office.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

How do we KNOW, as a fact, that the PA Grand Jury has subpoenaed BK's parents about DANA SMITHERS??? Couldn't they be questioning them about a different case, and it's been wrongly reported?

BINGO! It's fun to speculate, so I've speculated about a dozen or more different scenarios that have nothing to do with a tragic unsolved murder & seem far more likely to me.

Fervently hoping for justice for all of DS's loved ones.

MOO, as always.

 

[jjleroche]

Other than mentioning it briefly the evening of the hearing, I have stayed away from the discussion of the multiple name pronunciation errors that Judge Judge made during BK's brief court appearance. First, I want to make it clear that I am sure they were not done intentionally, and the judge surely felt badly about the flubs, especially after it was noted that Kaylee's sister dressed down one of the court advocates afterwards. I will say, however, I may have found one slipup an acceptable case of nerves, but he completely butchered the names of two of the four victims. If he had never heard the names spoken, perhaps it may be reasonable to assume that the name 'Xana' would be pronounced with a long 'A', but referring to Kaylee as 'Kayla' is just unacceptable. That is not a simple mispronunciation. That is misreading the name, not once, but twice. Furthermore, for most people, 'Kernodle', while certainly not as common as 'Smith' or 'Jones', is not a terribly uncommon name, and the pronunciation seems to be pretty much straightforward, but yet he stumbled over that name several times.

I do not blame any family members for voicing disappointment in the mispronunciations of their loved ones' names. I probably would have responded the same way. This judge lives in the area, presumably, and unless he lives under a rock, he has surely heard the names of Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin MANY times over the last six months, surely enough times to be able to pronounce them correctly. While he may have just had a bad case of nerves, which, if so, he better get over quickly, bc this case is going to be followed closely, all over the nation, his flubbing of the names was not a good look. Imo, though I am sure that is not the case, it made him APPEAR to be completely unprepared for the hearing. I trust their names will be pronounced correctly in the future. JMO

I'm pretty sure that Judge John Judge is beating himself up even more than Websleuthers, and I feel for him. I've been imagining putting myself in his position. The pressure would be on BIGTIME. It's one thing to be a Judge in an Idaho court. It's another thing entirely to be centre stage in one of the highest-profile court proceedings ever broadcast live in the free world. If that were me, I would have prepared ad nauseum to cover all bases (and I'm quite sure that Judge Judge did exactly this.) Checking points of law, ensuring that any possible issue which could arise was covered - probably even checked that the mike was working. Thankfully, for me, I don't think I can truly imagine that level of pressure. (As an aside, I have occasionally been required to speak publicly in front of large audiences. The level of pressure which I experienced was probably a zillionth of a percent of what Judge Judge was experiencing, but I was sweating bullets nevertheless.)

Of course he didn't deliberately pronounce the victims' names incorrectly. He is known to be a compassionate (and learned) man, and undoubtedly would be concerned that his miss-pronunciation has caused distress to the victims' loved ones.

Respectfully, IMHO, the Native American Plains proverb "Great Spirit, grant that I may not criticize my neighbour until I have walked a mile in his moccasins" seems particularly relevant here.

For me, the thing that matters most in the end, is that he presides over a fair court which enables justice for the victims to prevail. MOO IMHO

 

[10ofRods]

They haven't released how DS was killed, iirc ?
Maybe stabbed ?
Although it's not impossible for a killer to use different methods.
Like Richard Kuklinski.
BK scares me as much as RK.
Imo.

Since the usual purpose of a GJ in criminal matters is to indict and since only the prosecution gives evidence to a GJ, it's odd for me to think that they are having the GJ look at alternate suspects at this point in time. Of course, I don't know the threshold of probable cause for a Monroe Co, PA GJ.

One would think that if there were "no evidence" against a particular person, that person would not be introduced as a subject to a GJ (it would be a waste of their time." What does the Prosecutor say to the GJ in that case?

Someone mentioned an investigative GJ, which I've never heard of. Would love more info on that aspect.

If Dana Smither was stabbed, that still doesn't seem to be enough to warrant having the Kohberger parents in for whatever reason. OTOH, maybe the authorities thought they'd use this technique to loop in some specific testimony from the parents that could not otherwise be gotten.

I've never seen this maneuver before.

IMO

 

[Cindizzi]

Parents of Idaho student murder suspect subpoenaed to testify before Pennsylvania grand jury

By law, a Monroe County grand jury can only review potential crimes that occurred within Monroe County, Pennsylvania. It is unclear what potential crime they are investigating.

abc7chicago.com

[…]
Kohberger's father is expected to testify before the impaneled grand jury in a sealed proceeding in Pennsylvania Thursday, according to the source.

His mother previously testified before the secretive panel, the source said.

The parents of the man indicted for the killings of four University of Idaho students were subpoenaed in the Pennsylvania jurisdiction where they live and where Bryan Kohberger was arrested last December.

Their compelled testimony under oath may be shared with prosecutors in Idaho, according to the source. Pennsylvania law allows judges to release transcripts of witness testimony before grand juries to other investigative agencies after a court hearing.

An attorney representing Kohberger's parents tried unsuccessfully to have the subpoenas quashed, the source said.

The attorney retained by Michael and Maryann Kohberger declined to comment to CNN about the grand jury proceedings.
[…]
On Thursday, the Stroud Area Regional Police Department said it is aware of some media outlets reporting connections between Kohberger and the investigation into the disappearance of Dana Smithers, a woman whose remains were found in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania last month.

Police said there's no evidence to support those claims.

"The SARPD has no evidence that Dana Smither's disappearance, is in any way tied to Idaho murder suspect Bryan Kohberger," said Jennifer Lyon, chief of police.

 

[Cindizzi]

Since the usual purpose of a GJ in criminal matters is to indict and since only the prosecution gives evidence to a GJ, it's odd for me to think that they are having the GJ look at alternate suspects at this point in time. Of course, I don't know the threshold of probable cause for a Monroe Co, PA GJ.

One would think that if there were "no evidence" against a particular person, that person would not be introduced as a subject to a GJ (it would be a waste of their time." What does the Prosecutor say to the GJ in that case?

Someone mentioned an investigative GJ, which I've never heard of. Would love more info on that aspect.

If Dana Smither was stabbed, that still doesn't seem to be enough to warrant having the Kohberger parents in for whatever reason. OTOH, maybe the authorities thought they'd use this technique to loop in some specific testimony from the parents that could not otherwise be gotten.

I've never seen this maneuver before.

IMO

I’ve never heard of an investigative grand jury either.
I posted this last night where BE stresses the fact.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661570860938035201

 

[jepop]

Was looking at grand juries in PA: Apparently they have two types: Investigative and Inditing grand juries: Investigative grand juries look at evidence for potential crimes. MOO

What is a grand jury, and how does it work?

By definition, this process is a one-sided affair; defense lawyers don't have the opportunity to present any evidence or cross-examine witnesses in the grand jury room.

www.pennlive.com

In Pennsylvania, a statewide investigating grand jury is a tool used most often to investigate potential crimes, usually in prosecutor-led probes out of the Attorney General's office.

Nice, this was what I was wondering about earlier. So re BK parents testifying at GJ maybe this is an investigative Grand Jury looking into the Dana Smithers case. Or it could be that this 'story' has been mis-reported in some way and the GJ to which BK's parents are testifying is unrelated to Dana Smithers case and instead is related to a different investigation (I just saw this conjectured in another post and do wonder given the statement by Monroe County Chief of Police on FB). MOO

 

[Diddian]

I've said it before, and I will say it again. There is something to that HVAC van that I can't shake. This may be it, or it may not be. It just didn't belong there while the crime scene was still active IMO. I do not recall any of the media doing live coverage filming when it pulled up. It was always just in the background of their coverage. Someone has to have it.

I've also thought it odd that the HVAC van showed up when it did and your post bringing it up again makes me wonder: Could the rental house at 1122 King Rd have had a wireless thermostat? If so, might BK have hacked into the home's wireless network through that wireless thermostat?

 

[jepop]

I'm pretty sure that Judge John Judge is beating himself up even more than Websleuthers, and I feel for him. I've been imagining putting myself in his position. The pressure would be on BIGTIME. It's one thing to be a Judge in an Idaho court. It's another thing entirely to be centre stage in one of the highest-profile court proceedings ever broadcast live in the free world. If that were me, I would have prepared ad nauseum to cover all bases (and I'm quite sure that Judge Judge did exactly this.) Checking points of law, ensuring that any possible issue which could arise was covered - probably even checked that the mike was working. Thankfully, for me, I don't think I can truly imagine that level of pressure. (As an aside, I have occasionally been required to speak publicly in front of large audiences. The level of pressure which I experienced was probably a zillionth of a percent of what Judge Judge was experiencing, but I was sweating bullets nevertheless.)

Of course he didn't deliberately pronounce the victims' names incorrectly. He is known to be a compassionate (and learned) man, and undoubtedly would be concerned that his miss-pronunciation has caused distress to the victims' loved ones.

Respectfully, IMHO, the Native American Plains proverb "Great Spirit, grant that I may not criticize my neighbour until I have walked a mile in his moccasins" seems particularly relevant here.

For me, the thing that matters most in the end, is that he presides over a fair court which enables justice for the victims to prevail. MOO IMHO

Lovely post. Thank you.

 

[MassGuy]

How do we KNOW, as a fact, that the PA Grand Jury has subpoenaed BK's parents about DANA SMITHERS??? Couldn't they be questioning them about a different case, and it's been wrongly reported?

Wouldn’t put it past the Mail.

 

[MassGuy]

I agree, although I don't think it would have been his last...

Yup. Agree with that two. The BAU must be doing a lot of analysis on him.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

Since the usual purpose of a GJ in criminal matters is to indict and since only the prosecution gives evidence to a GJ, it's odd for me to think that they are having the GJ look at alternate suspects at this point in time. Of course, I don't know the threshold of probable cause for a Monroe Co, PA GJ.

One would think that if there were "no evidence" against a particular person, that person would not be introduced as a subject to a GJ (it would be a waste of their time." What does the Prosecutor say to the GJ in that case?

Someone mentioned an investigative GJ, which I've never heard of. Would love more info on that aspect.

If Dana Smither was stabbed, that still doesn't seem to be enough to warrant having the Kohberger parents in for whatever reason. OTOH, maybe the authorities thought they'd use this technique to loop in some specific testimony from the parents that could not otherwise be gotten.

I've never seen this maneuver before.

IMO

From: What is a grand jury, and how does it work?

The advantage of the grand jury process is two-fold:

It allows police or prosecutors to compel production of documentary evidence; and to force reluctant witnesses to testify through the power of subpoena.

Sometimes those witnesses are granted immunity from prosecution.

All evidence in a grand jury investigation is presented in strict secrecy before the panel, which consists of 23 members of the public selected from a multi-county pool when the jury is authorized.

Once in session, grand juries typically meet for three or four days once a month for 18 months, although the terms can be extended for six months to two full years.

Each grand jury's case log can be long, so it is typical for a session week to be split among several different cases.

 

[x_files]

If this wasn’t his first murder(s), I’ll eat my hat. He’s an outlier.

I agree with you. I could see him being involved in the childhood disappearance of another small child or another girl as a teen. <modsnip: opinion stated as fact>