4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[Chloegirl]

BBM. Phone+car+DNA on sheath+everything we haven't been told.

What you call "strong", I call, "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt." It is why his Defense is so desperate.

JMO

With most stories, the truth likely lies in between defense and prosecution. I am hopeful that there are a rabbits to pull out of the prosecution's hat, because the defense is going to be trying to get things thrown out. I just hope in the end we learn a little bit more than we did yesterday, sort of a waste of time. JMOO

 

[10ofRods]

That clip was taken before the judge made the request.

Thank you. It's one thing to criticize the media, it's another to accuse it of disobeying a judge.

IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

You said:

I'm saying I can't be sure he's guilty and I'm voting not guilty. It takes one juror

I took this to mean you see him as innocent.

A juror voting not guilty means they think he is innocent or not enough evidence.

So you think he is guilty but not BARD.

Only a trial can prove BARD, that I agree with.

Yes. I have said all along that the EVIDENCE (that we know about) isn't BARD. I've probably said it about a million times (very slight exaggeration) since his arrest and I always add "based on what we know."

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

No doubt he did wear his own shoes. I suspect he only had a finite amount of money and I think he was going to the house to kill one person where he could control the amount of blood on the floor so that his shoe prints would not be an issue.

I think it escalated in the dark that there were 2 people in the first bed and then 2 more that showed up looking at what was causing the sounds.

Vans shoes were never collected, as far as we know. It isn't on any of the inventory lists that I saw.

 

[MyBelle]

With most stories, the truth likely lies in between defense and prosecution. I am hopeful that there are a rabbits to pull out of the prosecution's hat, because the defense is going to be trying to get things thrown out. I just hope in the end we learn a little bit more than we did yesterday, sort of a waste of time. JMOO

I seriously doubt the defense will be successful in getting the car video, phone data, or the DNA on the sheath thrown out. I think there is such an abundance of evidence, the best the defense can do is to take a plea deal to get the DP off the table.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

With most stories, the truth likely lies in between defense and prosecution. I am hopeful that there are a rabbits to pull out of the prosecution's hat, because the defense is going to be trying to get things thrown out. I just hope in the end we learn a little bit more than we did yesterday, sort of a waste of time. JMOO

Strong disagree in a murder case. With most murder stories, there is a murder and the person or persons who did are clearly and plainly on the wrong side of the human ledger. The truth may lie outside the courtroom, I suppose, but it's certainly in the hands of the jury - who are supposed to find for ONE side of the argument or refuse to return a verdict.

I don't know how many trials you've watched, but there's absolutely nothing weak about the State's case at this point in time. And so far, the Defense has gotten no evidence "thrown out." (An odd term, really). There will be LOTS of evidence that the State puts on its list for trial - and even if the Judge approves it, they may not bring all the evidence. They will judge that as the trial unfolds.

But the Defense has a bigger problem. That is, many of the angles suggested here on WS would require that Kohberger testify on his own behalf. Risky. But juries are human and they are selected because they showed up (as responsible people do) for jury duty (many people shirk it). They answered questions at voir dire (and behind the scenes, are being researched by paralegals, possibly on both sides - but certainly the Defense has an interest in doing this - may even hire a consultant). So the jury will be reasonable, adult humans who want to do their duty. They may end up in a draw, but I doubt it. They will decide for one side or the other.

The idea that the State needs rabbits is odd to me. It's the Defense that needs to pray for a miracle. Just the remaining latent prints (both kinds) alone are going to put another finger on the scale; if the size of those Van prints didn't match Kohberger's feet (and likely matched in some detail), or other similar forms of evidence do not match up to Kohberger, I doubt the GJ would have indicted. But even if you believe that the "truth is somewhere in the middle" (How does that look? Kohberger kind of halfway did it? Did it but was in a fugue state? Because "didn't do it at all" is not "in the middle" to me), the Judge is being given an opportunity, as always, to pore over the evidence as well.

There's a motion to dismiss, isn't there? Let's wait until the Judge ways in. Because, IME, what the Judge has actually heard (on the phone, in chambers) off the record PLUS what the GJ heard is going to take this case to trial. And Judges do not decide to spend State resources capriciously. There will be a fair trial.

But it's going to be an uphill battle for this defendant. I think there will be some real bombshells, as always in a murder trial. I also think the list of witnesses will be surprising to some, but the work done here by the document-reading WSers have convinced me that there are going to be several further layers to the evidence, of the type used long before DNA was ever heard of.

GPS was likely introduced to the GJ. There has to be GPS to go along with the cell tower data (and there are more cell towers and masts whose information could contribute at trial - but likely unneeded if the GPS is there). The Amazon subpoenas got specific enough to make anyone following this case realize there was some sort of trail from Ka-Bar.

At any rate, I am confident that the Judge will not dismiss this case. The fact that the State is going for the death penalty telegraphs something about what they think the strength of their case might be. The number of different kinds of evidence that I believe they have is very long (mostly due to Kohberger not leaving his phone at home - it left, in his car, at the same time he did, from Pullman; the phone will unit Kohberger, car and King Road on multiple occasions, including the night and hour of the murders, and including a return to the scene of the crime).

IMO: Truth is often absolute in a murder case. Four people are dead. That's as absolute as one can get.

And whoever did it is completely responsible for this heinous action. No middle ground for me, anyway. I have to be convinced by the kinds of evidence I"m mentioning but I do not believe that the evidence is absent. It's there. The Grand Jury saw it. Now the Judge will rule on it. I'm also keeping in mind that the GJ evidence presentation is not the same as a trial - there will be more facts put before a jury in a murder trial than for the GJ, IMO.

ICBW. Judge Judge could throw this out -when is that hearing? Can't recall. But it's standard procedure and I don't for a minute believe he will throw this out.

IMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

Yes. I have said all along that the EVIDENCE (that we know about) isn't BARD. I've probably said it about a million times (very slight exaggeration) since his arrest and I always add "based on what we know."

Evidence never gets to BARD level until it all comes out in court.

I think the evidence so far points strongly to guilt but I rely on trials for BARD.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I was surprised by the 4000 tip(email/phone) difference between what MPD reported and what the state has provided the D. Maybe some of those tips went to a different agency?
I think the D would be looking through the tips and comparing them to the investigation process. Which tips were investigated? Were there any significant tips not investigated?
It would be interesting to read that list to see what type of tips (in general) people call/email in and to see the scope of work LE had to do to sift through them.
MOO

I wonder how many tips were made about BK by neighbours and acquaintances when the white car info was released?

What with his strange night owl behaviours and odd demeanour. Maybe there were even some about him before that! Do we know?

JMO

 

[Pyrite]

Based on the PCA and his reported behavior in PA at his parent's house, I am 85% sure he is guilty. Prosecutor is probably 100% sure and the defense, if honest, would probably be 70% sure themselves... but that is not their job. Their job is to serve their client and get the best deal possible.

From listening to Bob Mata on his defense diaries podcast, he mentions in multiple episode that his job as the defense is to make sure the accused’s constitutional rights have not been violated. If that sometimes allow guilty people to walk free, that is on the state for violating those civil rights, not on the defense for pointing it out.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I agree with you that there are serious constitutional questions regarding genetic genealogy that are likely to become subject to court cases for years to come. And I say this as a genetic genealogist (amateur, not professional, helping people find biological family). While my husband has not done a dna kit and therefore has not opted into his dna being used by law enforcement, our kids have done them and he has many relatives who have also. So, even though he hasn't provided his dna and he hasn't given consent for law enforcement to have his dna, they do in fact have access to his dna.

I also agree with those who believe the motions to obtain the materials regarding the genetic genealogy investigation are primarily to look for flaws in the process and to lay a foundation for future court proceedings surrounding civil liberties. They presumably have BK's dna profile. They can load it into GEDmatch and use their own experts to build a tree around it and demonstrate the sample doesn't lead to him if it doesn't. With some decent matches, I could probably come up with his name in a few hours. They may have already done that. So they're going to look for flaws in the process, not the result.

That all said, I also agree with those who think the case is strong. His dna is on the sheath. Do I believe touch dna can come from an uninvolved party--sure. If the dna was from someone who worked in amazon shipping, or at the counter of a store that sells them, I would dismiss the dna evidence completely. Then you have the possibility of the sheath having belonged to BK, but lost and used by someone else to commit the crime. The defense will surely bring that up in the form of questions for the witnesses on the stand--"Could the sheath have been left by someone other than BK?" Unless he testifies, the defense can really only present hypotheticals to explain the presence of his dna--could this have happened, could that have happened? And it will be up to the jury to use their own common sense--does that seem likely? And then you pair it with the movements of his phone that night. It seems less and less likely with each layer of evidence that his dna just happened to be found on the sheath but he wasn't there or responsible.

Which brings me to the car--my thoughts on revisions regarding what car, what year--to me it all depends on when they received the results for the genetic genealogy investigation. Did they have a name first or settled on the correct car first? I don't think we know? Obviously, if they had a name and then revised what car they were looking for based on what BK drove--complete garbage evidence and would make me side eye everything else. That's putting it mildly but I'll leave it at that lol. If they landed on the correct car/year before having a name--that's solid evidence to me, even if they revised it as they consulted more experts. As a juror, it wouldn't matter to me that they changed their mind as long as they came to their final conclusion before they had BKs name and knew what he drove.

Per MSM reports and the PCA, they changed the date of the Elantra AFTER BK was on their radar. They initially put out a call for the Elantra just to local authorities and then were tipped off by WSU parking attendant about BK on November 29th. By early December, they were still looking for 2011- 2013 (see below). So it was sometime after early December that they changed the dates of the Elantra, and BK's name was known to them at that time.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article269744576.html

Idaho college murders timeline: From off-campus killings to Bryan Kohberger's court appearance

Authorities have provided some information on the killings during the course of the investigation, and a preliminary timeline reveals how those killed spent some of their final hours, as well as the investigative response.

abc7chicago.com

IMO, that's going to come back to bite the prosecution in the butt.

 

[Boxer]

Is Ba

Yes. I have said all along that the EVIDENCE (that we know about) isn't BARD. I've probably said it about a million times (very slight exaggeration) since his arrest and I always add "based on what we know."

MOO its beyond a reasonable doubt now, but of course a single juror can derail a verdict.

 

[Chloegirl]

BBM. Phone+car+DNA on sheath+everything we haven't been told.

What you call "strong", I call, "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt." It is why his Defense is so desperate.

JMO

With most stories, the truth likely lies in between defense and prosecution. I am hopeful that there are a rabbits to pull out of the prosecution's hat, because the defense is going to be trying to get things thrown out. I just hope in the end we learn a little bit more than we did yesterday, sort of a waste of time. JMOO

Strong disagree in a murder case. With most murder stories, there is a murder and the person or persons who did are clearly and plainly on the wrong side of the human ledger. The truth may lie outside the courtroom, I suppose, but it's certainly in the hands of the jury - who are supposed to find for ONE side of the argument or refuse to return a verdict.

I don't know how many trials you've watched, but there's absolutely nothing weak about the State's case at this point in time. And so far, the Defense has gotten no evidence "thrown out." (An odd term, really). There will be LOTS of evidence that the State puts on its list for trial - and even if the Judge approves it, they may not bring all the evidence. They will judge that as the trial unfolds.

But the Defense has a bigger problem. That is, many of the angles suggested here on WS would require that Kohberger testify on his own behalf. Risky. But juries are human and they are selected because they showed up (as responsible people do) for jury duty (many people shirk it). They answered questions at voir dire (and behind the scenes, are being researched by paralegals, possibly on both sides - but certainly the Defense has an interest in doing this - may even hire a consultant). So the jury will be reasonable, adult humans who want to do their duty. They may end up in a draw, but I doubt it. They will decide for one side or the other.

The idea that the State needs rabbits is odd to me. It's the Defense that needs to pray for a miracle. Just the remaining latent prints (both kinds) alone are going to put another finger on the scale; if the size of those Van prints didn't match Kohberger's feet (and likely matched in some detail), or other similar forms of evidence do not match up to Kohberger, I doubt the GJ would have indicted. But even if you believe that the "truth is somewhere in the middle" (How does that look? Kohberger kind of halfway did it? Did it but was in a fugue state? Because "didn't do it at all" is not "in the middle" to me), the Judge is being given an opportunity, as always, to pore over the evidence as well.

There's a motion to dismiss, isn't there? Let's wait until the Judge ways in. Because, IME, what the Judge has actually heard (on the phone, in chambers) off the record PLUS what the GJ heard is going to take this case to trial. And Judges do not decide to spend State resources capriciously. There will be a fair trial.

But it's going to be an uphill battle for this defendant. I think there will be some real bombshells, as always in a murder trial. I also think the list of witnesses will be surprising to some, but the work done here by the document-reading WSers have convinced me that there are going to be several further layers to the evidence, of the type used long before DNA was ever heard of.

GPS was likely introduced to the GJ. There has to be GPS to go along with the cell tower data (and there are more cell towers and masts whose information could contribute at trial - but likely unneeded if the GPS is there). The Amazon subpoenas got specific enough to make anyone following this case realize there was some sort of trail from Ka-Bar.

At any rate, I am confident that the Judge will not dismiss this case. The fact that the State is going for the death penalty telegraphs something about what they think the strength of their case might be. The number of different kinds of evidence that I believe they have is very long (mostly due to Kohberger not leaving his phone at home - it left, in his car, at the same time he did, from Pullman; the phone will unit Kohberger, car and King Road on multiple occasions, including the night and hour of the murders, and including a return to the scene of the crime).

IMO: Truth is often absolute in a murder case. Four people are dead. That's as absolute as one can get.

And whoever did it is completely responsible for this heinous action. No middle ground for me, anyway. I have to be convinced by the kinds of evidence I"m mentioning but I do not believe that the evidence is absent. It's there. The Grand Jury saw it. Now the Judge will rule on it. I'm also keeping in mind that the GJ evidence presentation is not the same as a trial - there will be more facts put before a jury in a murder trial than for the GJ, IMO.

ICBW. Judge Judge could throw this out -when is that hearing? Can't recall. But it's standard procedure and I don't for a minute believe he will throw this out.

IMO.

This is helpful but you are taking it quite literally. The case will end up looking whatever way it is presented by each side. I am hoping prosecution has LOTS we know nothing about to reinforce what we do know. The facts are the facts and I look forward to those.

In the meantime, there's a lot of spin and you don't know what's going to be in or out of the actual testimony and evidence. That doesn't mean anybody half did anything. To me it's going to come down to what gets presented in court. If things are thrown out (I'm not saying they will be but many here seems to think they're trying and we see evidence of that) it colors the reality differently, i.e. what can be considered by the jurors. It is just too soon to say it is going one way or another as some have implied here. JMOO

Ps. Just hoping for more yesterday feeling frustrated that we're going to wait a long time.

 

[Chloegirl]

I seriously doubt the defense will be successful in getting the car video, phone data, or the DNA on the sheath thrown out. I think there is such an abundance of evidence, the best the defense can do is to take a plea deal to get the DP off the table.

JMO

I agree with that and sometimes it does seem like they're leaning towards that, doesn't it? IDK.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

So, more stalling tactics from AT. No surprises here. I don't like it at all that BK has access to gel for his hair or that he can suddenly wear a suit for that matter. JMO.

He still has rights.

 

[10ofRods]

With most stories, the truth likely lies in between defense and prosecution. I am hopeful that there are a rabbits to pull out of the prosecution's hat, because the defense is going to be trying to get things thrown out. I just hope in the end we learn a little bit more than we did yesterday, sort of a waste of time. JMOO

This is helpful but you are taking it quite literally. The case will end up looking whatever way it is presented by each side. I am hoping prosecution has LOTS we know nothing about to reinforce what we do know. The facts are the facts and I look forward to those.

In the meantime, there's a lot of spin and you don't know what's going to be in or out of the actual testimony and evidence. That doesn't mean anybody half did anything. To me it's going to come down to what gets presented in court. If things are thrown out (I'm not sayingay they will be but many here seems to think they're trying and we see evidence of that) it colors the reality differently, i.e. what can be considered by the jurors. It is just too soon to say it is going one way or another as some have implied here. JMOO

I try hard not to pay attention to the spin. We are privileged here to have the court documents themselves to ponder. I still disagree that the story "lies in between" the fact that Kohberger did it and something else. He either did it or he didn't. If he didn't do it, I"m going to say he's not guilty. Not that he's kinda sorta guilty or somehow in the middle. The Defense so far as said nothing (not even "Not Guilty" although they knew that would be the plea).

He either did it or he didn't do it. There is no middle ground for me. And yes that was my point: the case will ending up looking however it does. But there won't be a middle ground presented at Closing. It will be a black and white argument (unfortunately I want to also add, with lots of RED in the picture as well, to represent the emotion of it). But the Prosecution isn't going to introduce a halfway gray area for this case to stand on - and of course, neither is the Defense.

I read legal documents mostly and yes, I do take them literally. The DNA is real. It's Kohberger's. They got a partial match to one of his relatives. The State wants certain witnesses and people to be screened from public view, perhaps even at trial; and the Defense has similar motives in its requests. But neither is trying to find a gray area or a middle ground. The truth is that some human(s) killed four innocent young people in their beds in the middle of the night apparently without robbery or any other known or typical criminal motive.

I could see a "gray area" for murder if only one person was killed, and the murderer and victim were known to each other and the victim had done something to provoke or even attack the murderer (self-defense; heat of passion) OR there was just one "accidental" stab wound while they were playing a knife game. But this was not an accident. There were multiple wounds on each body. No one was attacking the killer. Killer apparently left none of his own blood at the scene.

This is first degree murder with aggravating circumstances, with all evidence pointing to just one perp. Either that person is Kohberger or it isn't.

IMO.

 

[Chloegirl]

So, more stalling tactics from AT. No surprises here. I don't like it at all that BK has access to gel for his hair or that he can suddenly wear a suit for that matter. JMO.

Ultimately it doesn't matter if we do like her, she's got a job to do. Hair gel or no hair gel. I hope she does a good job (but falls short of the goal) because we're looking for the truth here not just vindication. JMOO

 

[Chloegirl]

I try hard not to pay attention to the spin. We are privileged here to have the court documents themselves to ponder. I still disagree that the story "lies in between" the fact that Kohberger did it and something else. He either did it or he didn't. If he didn't do it, I"m going to say he's not guilty. Not that he's kinda sorta guilty or somehow in the middle. The Defense so far as said nothing (not even "Not Guilty" although they knew that would be the plea).

He either did it or he didn't do it. There is no middle ground for me. And yes that was my point: the case will ending up looking however it does. But there won't be a middle ground presented at Closing. It will be a black and white argument (unfortunately I want to also add, with lots of RED in the picture as well, to represent the emotion of it). But the Prosecution isn't going to introduce a halfway gray area for this case to stand on - and of course, neither is the Defense.

I read legal documents mostly and yes, I do take them literally. The DNA is real. It's Kohberger's. They got a partial match to one of his relatives. The State wants certain witnesses and people to be screened from public view, perhaps even at trial; and the Defense has similar motives in its requests. But neither is trying to find a gray area or a middle ground. The truth is that some human(s) killed four innocent young people in their beds in the middle of the night apparently without robbery or any other known or typical criminal motive.

I could see a "gray area" for murder if only one person was killed, and the murderer and victim were known to each other and the victim had done something to provoke or even attack the murderer (self-defense; heat of passion) OR there was just one "accidental" stab wound while they were playing a knife game. But this was not an accident. There were multiple wounds on each body. No one was attacking the killer. Killer apparently left none of his own blood at the scene.

This is first degree murder with aggravating circumstances, with all evidence pointing to just one perp. Either that person is Kohberger or it isn't.

IMO.

I apologize but you misunderstood what I was saying to the other poster so I digress. I never like this thumb wrestling and certainly don't need to do it with someone senior and far more experienced. I know that it's always going to come down to what happens in court.

 

[katydid23]

The article clearly states it didn't match CODIS. The FBI then paid a private company to build a genetic profile (whatever that really means). Once that was created they then were able to match vs. genealogy data which again the defense is going to want to know specifics of.
And THEN the FBI tipped local LE to looks at Bryan K. as a suspect.
Thus, the method and sequence of events becomes very important.

However, at the end of the day, they took a cheek swab and it matched the DNA from the sheath at the crime scene.

So the Genealogy data has no impact upon the final match.

 

[MyBelle]

However, at the end of the day, they took a cheek swab and it matched the DNA from the sheath at the crime scene.

So the Genealogy data has no impact upon the final match.

BBM
Bingo!

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think you're on the right track. And even for parents with the money and knowledge to proactively seek all the help they can find, there is often little that can be done. I know of one situation where a teen threatened to kill his parents multiple times. It was not a bluff. It seems almost inevitable that some parents may become frightened, overwhelmed and exhausted living in such a situation. Such parents may reach a point where placating the child, to have at least some peace, seems like an attractive alternative.

BK telling his Father not to do something stupid and report his theft is chilling. I would be surprised if that sort of intimidation was a one time thing. As a troubled child becomes older, and more conditioned to getting what they want by using certain techniques, "upping the ante" wouldn't be a surprise either.

I hope BK's parents are not torturing themselves by asking each other what stone they left unturned, what else they should have/could have done. Assuming he's guilty as charged, there is likely nothing they could have done to change who BK turned out to be.

The family of BK are victims and I feel for them. I admire his Dad stepping up and doing the right thing in reporting the phone stolen back in 2014.

BK's actions are his own, he and he alone is responsible for those choices and should answer the consequences of those choices.

MOO