4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[kittythehare]

I try hard not to pay attention to the spin. We are privileged here to have the court documents themselves to ponder. I still disagree that the story "lies in between" the fact that Kohberger did it and something else. He either did it or he didn't. If he didn't do it, I"m going to say he's not guilty. Not that he's kinda sorta guilty or somehow in the middle. The Defense so far as said nothing (not even "Not Guilty" although they knew that would be the plea).

He either did it or he didn't do it. There is no middle ground for me. And yes that was my point: the case will ending up looking however it does. But there won't be a middle ground presented at Closing. It will be a black and white argument (unfortunately I want to also add, with lots of RED in the picture as well, to represent the emotion of it). But the Prosecution isn't going to introduce a halfway gray area for this case to stand on - and of course, neither is the Defense.

I read legal documents mostly and yes, I do take them literally. The DNA is real. It's Kohberger's. They got a partial match to one of his relatives. The State wants certain witnesses and people to be screened from public view, perhaps even at trial; and the Defense has similar motives in its requests. But neither is trying to find a gray area or a middle ground. The truth is that some human(s) killed four innocent young people in their beds in the middle of the night apparently without robbery or any other known or typical criminal motive.

I could see a "gray area" for murder if only one person was killed, and the murderer and victim were known to each other and the victim had done something to provoke or even attack the murderer (self-defense; heat of passion) OR there was just one "accidental" stab wound while they were playing a knife game. But this was not an accident. There were multiple wounds on each body. No one was attacking the killer. Killer apparently left none of his own blood at the scene.

This is first degree murder with aggravating circumstances, with all evidence pointing to just one perp. Either that person is Kohberger or it isn't.

IMO.

Exactly this.
How many hundreds of cases have we analysed over the years?
How many trials?
This is a new one for me because I never experienced a defence of defense tactics in such a heinous crime , here or elsewhere and my elsewhere is terrorism cases.
Thanks for your eloquence and patience.
No case ever hung on defense objections IMO.

 

[Nova]

BBM - same here. Not following any longer for accurate depictions of events or facts. IMO twitter (individual investigative reporting) is where you can find factual real time reporting.

To be fair, the MSM has found themselves caught between the gag order on the one hand and, on the other, intense public pressure for info on a particularly heinous crime.

Moreover, before the gag order we heard errors in video-taped recordings from case principals, including family members, police officers and even the DA in a small town unaccustomed to murders of this magnitude. The MSM can only be as good as its sources, and the latter were of uneven quality in the early weeks of the investigation.

But what you propose is to substitute the instant judgment of one reporter with a Twitter account over that of journalists who are conventionally fact-checked and supervised by a team of editors.

That's your prerogative, of course, but surely the past six years have taught us that a Twitter account is no guarantor of truth or wisdom!

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

MOO, but showing him in a suit with gel styled curls and manicured brows is just as manipulative. There are plenty of studies about "suspect attractiveness" creating juror bias. And while I find bk creepy, he oddly has leagues of fans on some of the social media groups I've unfortunately waded into.

Is it manipulative or is it REAL? The MSM should not be in the business of altering reality. He literally wore a suit and had curls. So that's what they should be required to show. Instead, they're being incredibly manipulative and altering reality by showing him in the orange. BK has not been found guilty. The media doesn't get to play judge and jury and then distort reality in order to have everyone else agree with them. And then they whine endlessly about the gag order as if they didn't do it to themselves.

MOO.

 

[kittythehare]

To be fair, the MSM has found themselves caught between the gag order on the one hand and, on the other, intense public pressure for info on a particularly heinous crime.

Moreover, before the gag order we heard errors in video-taped recordings from case principals, including family members, police officers and even the DA in a small town unaccustomed to murders of this magnitude. The MSM can only be as good as its sources, and the latter were of uneven quality in the early weeks of the investigation.

But what you propose is to substitute the instant judgment of one reporter with a Twitter account over that of journalists who are conventionally fact-checked and supervised by a team of editors.

That's your prerogative, of course, but surely the past six years have taught us that a Twitter account is no This is the lull time, the time between the arrest and the trial.

The lull time is a tedious time and an exasperating time.
We rely on court documents and trusted sources but we do not have high expectations during the lull time.
I usually avoid the lull times unless something breaks.

The trial is where it's at.

There is no point in trying to put a jigsaw together from miniscule fragments.
For anybody.

 

[Pitsleuth]

However, at the end of the day, they took a cheek swab and it matched the DNA from the sheath at the crime scene.

So the Genealogy data has no impact upon the final match.

Agree, I’m confused why people are so stuck on the genealogy thing. Yes, I realize the moral implications and the gray area that these databases have created. And there needs to be set laws created for these circumstances that arise in the future.
But what do you want? It to get thrown out because of how they got there? The DNA FROM HIS CHEEk matches. That’s the bottom line. It would be really scary, to me at least, for him to walk because some people take issue with how they got his name.
For those who think the genealogy aspect matters, if the DNA gets thrown out and he’s found not guilty, do you want him living next to you? Or your daughter? Knowing his DNA was on the sheath but it couldn’t be used because they used forensic genealogy to get his name?
JMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

seriously, even if they had shown him in a bikini, he's not the priority here, the victims are.

Until he's found guilty, he is the priority. It's his trial. Whether he did it or not is the priority. That doesn't take anything away from the victims.

JMO.

 

[Cindizzi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1674181445097771011

 

[NottaYutz]

Incidentally, this week’s episode of ABC’s King Road Killings podcast sounds like it will be a deep dive into BK’s life, including interviews with people from his past. (I haven’t had time to listen yet, just saw it in my queue.)

Thank you for reminding me about the existence of this podcast. Listening now to the latest episode.

 

[Chloegirl]

The lull time is a tedious time and an exasperating time.
We rely on court documents and trusted sources but we do not have high expectations during the lull time.
I usually avoid the lull times unless something breaks.

The trial is where it's at.

There is no point in trying to put a jigsaw together from miniscule fragments.
For anybody.

So this has been bugging me for a while. Is the WS community investigating the case or are they trying to litigate it? I am often trying to figure out the facts (not argue them in a court of law). It seems like it's more law focused? Which is super interesting, but less investigative. I'm sure they go hand in hand but I'm finding a lot more arguing the case than trying to figure what happened. Newbie here so it's really a humble question.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I am not 100% sure he’s guilty.
But on the other hand, I won’t be surprised if he is.

I think there are more people than realized in that boat, honestly. Here on WS, it's a little different, but IMO, this case has never been a slam dunk because there are many questions outstanding. JMO

 

[MyBelle]

To be fair, the MSM has found themselves caught between the gag order on the one hand and, on the other, intense public pressure for info on a particularly heinous crime.

Moreover, before the gag order we heard errors in video-taped recordings from case principals, including family members, police officers and even the DA in a small town unaccustomed to murders of this magnitude. The MSM can only be as good as its sources, and the latter were of uneven quality in the early weeks of the investigation.

But what you propose is to substitute the instant judgment of one reporter with a Twitter account over that of journalists who are conventionally fact-checked and supervised by a team of editors.

That's your prerogative, of course, but surely the past six years have taught us that a Twitter account is no guarantor of truth or wisdom!

BBM. So true!

iirc, in the early days of this case, investigators weren't saying anything at all and the victim families expressed concern it was going to go cold. That's how professionally the LE agencies were working together to ensure a solid case would be the result. I applaud their effort and bet the victims' families are as well.

I never follow Twitter because I view it as clickbait.

JMO

 

[Balthazar]

BK's phone records go with the car evidence.

The car evidence needs the phone evidence that shows his phone pings on towers where the car is seen. This was the main point in the PCA.

Together this is strong evidence.

Many posters knock the car evidence but won't touch the damning phone evidence with a 10 foot pole.

2 Cents

Reread the PCA. I was horrified to realize that the phone evidence is a big black hole that shows he's in Pullman and then the phone goes off at 2:47am and does not connect with a cell tower again until 4:48am in Blaine. What is concerning to me is that there is zero video of the suspect vehicle entering Moscow. All video mentioned was not until it reached the area of Queen Rd at 3:30am. LE should have been able to trace that vehicle from the time it entered Moscow until it left. But somehow despite all the security cameras out there nowadays, they don't have that (at least as far as we can tell.)

Believe me when I say for the sake of the families and the victims, I wanted this to be a straight forward slam-dunk case. But with what we know so far directly from LE and the Defense, it is anything but that.

All IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

Agree, I’m confused why people are so stuck on the genealogy thing. Yes, I realize the moral implications and the gray area that these databases have created. And there needs to be set laws created for these circumstances that arise in the future.
But what do you want? It to get thrown out because of how they got there? The DNA FROM HIS CHEEk matches. That’s the bottom line. It would be really scary, to me at least, for him to walk because some people take issue with how they got his name.
For those who think the genealogy aspect matters, if the DNA gets thrown out and he’s found not guilty, do you want him living next to you? Or your daughter? Knowing his DNA was on the sheath but it couldn’t be used because they used forensic genealogy to get his name?
JMO.

After 911, The Patriot Act was passed that pretty much gives LE access to anything it wants whether it be our cell phone data or genealogy data. The sheath was next to victims bodies and it had DNA on it. There is no way the DNA from BK's cheek swab is going to get tossed.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I understand the method used to develop a SNP.
I do not understand why it has to be kept secret from the defense. Why ask for a protective order and balk at giving the requested discovery?
I am more interested in the sequence of events and how they relate to the investigation:
The D deserves to know the sequence of events, why they ocurred in that sequence, and how it relates to what else was going on in the investigation at that time. Why did the fbi stop the lab ( a lab that is known for doing great work with genealogy) and decide to do it themselves? When did that happen? Were they just focusing on BK or pursuing other leads. Once the fbi received the snp did they load it up and go directly to a kohberger relative? Or did they proceed normally, not knowing where it would lead and narrow it down to multiple individuals and give LE a tip about each individual? Did LE pursue each individual? Was there only one tip? Did they have Kohberger in their sites at the time? How long did the family tree take to complete? Is it the normal amount of time it usually takes?
IMO the method is important, the process is important, the sequence of events is important, how it relates to the entire investigation is important.
IMO this should not be hidden from the defense.

Why is it important what the sequence of steps were when reati ng the DNA profile? They are not even using that same profile now, so what is the relevance?

The protective order is meant to protect the family members uncovered during the genealogy search, so the public does not threaten or harass them. Why should anyone, defense included, need to know who they are?

Who cares about how many tips there were or how long it took to create the family tree? How does that have anything to do with the defendant's Guilt or Innocence?

 

[ArianeEmory]

So this has been bugging me for a while. Is the WS community investigating the case or are they trying to litigate it? I am often trying to figure out the facts (not argue them in a court of law). It seems like it's more law focused? Which is super interesting, but less investigative. I'm sure they go hand in hand but I'm finding a lot more arguing the case than trying to figure what happened. Newbie here so it's really a humble question.

I think the sifting and sifting and sifting of legal documents in this case is largely driven by pro-BK sentiments. (Trying to find “gotchas” in the proceedings or (in the past) ways to dirty up the victims.)

*Total* misinterpretation of legal docs by lay people defending BK is a pretty common sight elsewhere.

This is a really weird one, overall. A horrifying crime with some deeply unsettling reactions to BK by some people. I’ll be happy when it’s in the rearview mirror.

This is all assuming I got the gist of your post. If so, no, this isn’t typical. I do miss the ability to just discuss the case like it’s any other case, but for some reason we can’t do that with this one.

 

[Chloegirl]

I think the sifting and sifting and sifting of legal documents in this case is largely driven by pro-BK sentiments. (Trying to find “gotchas” in the proceedings or (in the past) ways to dirty up the victims.)

*Total* misinterpretation of legal docs by lay people defending BK is a pretty common sight elsewhere.

This is a really weird one, overall. A horrifying crime with some deeply unsettling reactions to BK by some people. I’ll be happy when it’s in the rearview mirror.

This is all assuming I got the gist of your post. If so, no, this isn’t typical. I do miss the ability to just discuss the case like it’s any other case, but for some reason we can’t do that with this one.

Okay that's helpful. I started to think did I misunderstand WS intentions? And I'm a local so my interest is in the truth, but also trying to understand why I get certain impressions, etc.

 

[Balthazar]

I also noticed in the video of the hearing yesterday the BK's team were smiling and even glowing about something as they entered the courtroom and even after the judge entered and he sat down, they were still smiling. I wonder why?

 

[MyBelle]

I also noticed in the video of the hearing yesterday the BK's team were smiling and even glowing about something as they entered the courtroom and even after the judge entered and he sat down, they were still smiling. I wonder why?

They were "performing" for the cameras.

JMO

 

[ArianeEmory]

Reread the PCA. I was horrified to realize that the phone evidence is a big black hole that shows he's in Pullman and then the phone goes off at 2:47am and does not connect with a cell tower again until 4:48am in Blaine. What is concerning to me is that there is zero video of the suspect vehicle entering Moscow. All video mentioned was not until it reached the area of Queen Rd at 3:30am. LE should have been able to trace that vehicle from the time it entered Moscow until it left. But somehow despite all the security cameras out there nowadays, they don't have that (at least as far as we can tell.)

It’s a different country, but obviously similar legal systems: in the Dellen Millard/Mark Smich murder trials in Canada, particularly the murder of Tim Bosma, the prosecution turned out to have ridiculously more CCTV and other evidence available than the public knew before trial. (Found guilty.)

In the US, same thing for the recent Letecia Stauch trial. So much more evidence than the public knew—and it was awful. (Guilty.)

I do agree the cellphone blackout that overlays the murders is chilling. Because so many other murderers have done that. (It’s just not a good plan.)

I don’t have any doubt that they have the right guy. JMO and I’m not eligible to be on a jury in any of the states that he may have operated in.

 

[Nila Aella]

To be fair, the MSM has found themselves caught between the gag order on the one hand and, on the other, intense public pressure for info on a particularly heinous crime.

Moreover, before the gag order we heard errors in video-taped recordings from case principals, including family members, police officers and even the DA in a small town unaccustomed to murders of this magnitude. The MSM can only be as good as its sources, and the latter were of uneven quality in the early weeks of the investigation.

But what you propose is to substitute the instant judgment of one reporter with a Twitter account over that of journalists who are conventionally fact-checked and supervised by a team of editors.

That's your prerogative, of course, but surely the past six years have taught us that a Twitter account is no guarantor of truth or wisdom!

I agree that MSM has been faced with significant challenges.

IMO MSM fact checking has also been quite challenged by the need to get the story out there as quickly as possible.

I don't propose substituting one reporter over supervised fact checking journalists. I follow investigative journalists with many years of experience that I feel are reputable journalists. I also follow local journalists who are more intimate with the area the crime was committed in. I follow twitter accounts of multiple lawyers and ex fbi agents that are following this case. I add twitter accounts of individuals in other professions that are knowledgable in a specific area (like CAST) and that can shed light on the evidence being presented. I also view some twitter accounts that are specifically opinionated one side or the other, both professional and non professional individuals. I follow the facebook groups that contain journalists who work for companies like you describe (conventionally fact checked and are supervised by a team of editors).

I feel like when one views MSM - you get added opinions of a variety of "experts", flashy headlines and bylines, attention grabbing content for clicks, etc. I get tired of trying to sift through all the added flash. I do still read those sites, but they are not my first reads.

I also think when a reputable journalist is live tweeting, there is no time for adding in opinion, flash, or click bait.

JMO