4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

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Agree about Dateline but .....

I don't believe AT would tell the jury that
"Yes the prosecution has a solid DNA match to Mr Kohberger and we don't dispute that since he did handle the sheath and the knife but decided not to purchase them."

The prosecution is doing everything they can to distance BK from the DNA - not confirm it is his DNA.

“There is no connection between Mr. Kohberger and the victims.”

“Presumably, the Defense is expected to accept at face value that the sheath had touch DNA just waiting for testing by all the FBI’s myriad resources,” the filing scoffs.

The defense’s argument also points out several perceived gaps in the prosecution’s case, including the “total lack of DNA evidence from the victims” in the suspect’s apartment and car, as well as the genetic material of three additional unknown males that was found at the murder scene.
None of this DNA matches that of Bryan Kohberger.

“The state apparently only wants to prevent Mr. Kohberger from seeing how the investigative genetic genealogy profile was created and how many other people the FBI chose to ignore during their investigation.”


Bryan Kohberger Says DNA From 3 Men, Mystery Glove at Murder Scene
Bryan Kohberger has ‘no connection’ to University of Idaho murder victims, defense claims
BBM. That's a pretty lame argument considering none of the unknown males matches the DNA found on the knife sheath found with two of the victims. I also don't know how she could possibly know there is "no connection" between BK and the victims. His DNA on the knife sheath next to victims is a pretty strong "connection" as are his bushy eyebrows and general description given by the eyewitness.

JMO
 
My own view on what might have "triggered" the murders on that weekend run more to the cumulative stressors in Kohberger's life.

Lots of people who are into true crime are also into thinking about crime. We even joke here on WS about "writing a novel" about crime and using some of the specifics of real crimes. People who spend a lot of time thinking about crime and studying crime end up knowing way more about crime.

Do such people sometimes fantasize about committing crimes? Yes.

IOW, I think Kohberger had put in hours of thinking about crime, about how people get caught, what he would do if he wanted to go homicidal. I also have a theory that this type of fantasy helped him self-soothe. Made him less anxious. It's well-known that fantasies can reduce uncomfortable or undesirable drives that lead to undesirable behaviors.

In terms of narrowing down why he finally went off the rails (which he may not have intended to do when he used those crime fantasies are part of his personal stress reduction system), I think it's important to look at the structural conditions of his life - in other words, really obvious facts.

He had vastly increased his "opportunity" window by moving out of his parents' home and across the country. I believe he began thinking about peeping, creeping and more while back in PA, but that he was immediately engaged in this kind of "recon" when he got to the dual campuses in WA and ID. The absence, at last, of parental supervision (and maybe even sisterly comment) was achieved.

But it was also a very high stress environment for him. I believe he wanted to excel in school, in criminology. He felt he had loads and loads of insight to offer (why was that? Because he felt he had a criminal mind that he had "turned to the good.") Why do I believe that? Because I've met several people who thought this way and who are criminals (two of them are criminal cops).

When it became clear that he was not accepted in a special group of people (fellow criminologists), he was hurt, outraged and on edge. He wanted to "show 'em."

This state could have gone on longer without him killing but something (perhaps the near certainty of losing his TA-ship) pushed him into overdrive. We don't know if he had targets elsewhere, if that woman in his program who allowed him into her apartment escaped by the skin of her teeth, or not.

So, my thinking is that he resisted certain other stalked targets (and was probably thinking about young women as targets day-in and day-out) and focused on a few other factors that are often spoken of under the topic of "victimology." How does a killer choose their targets?

I think he knew crimes committed in another jurisdiction (than where one's own ID shows a residence) are less likely to be solved. So he likely focused on Moscow as his fantasy crime target. I think he had shifting targets in his mind and may still have been pondering exactly who to pick on that night in November. And here's where this thinking has led me:

The murderer was filled with anger and resentment at a particular situation and particular targets. Specifically, he was jealous of the free and easy, ordinary college life of 18-22 year olds, especially ones regarded as beautiful, handsome and popular. I believe he had been to the party scene in Moscow and found himself (once again) on the outside. He likely was unable to focus on his own interpersonal skills as part of this; there were real barriers to being accepted by undergrads because...of his intensity, and his actual age. He may even have pictured university life to be a more...academic experience. What he found instead was tons of underage drinking, superficial silliness on weekends, junk food eating, general partying - and probably, quite a bit of sexual license.

But even among these (to his mind) bacchanalian students, he was unacceptable. Even when drunk, sorority girls ignored him and turned to others. He could not find the magic way that other young men had of entering fully into university society and so, he was very angry at university society and part of his motivation was landing blows on that very society.

The victims in this crime go beyond the murder victims. I don't think Kohberger is the type who spends a lot of time in compassion towards others or thinks about souls or the value of human life. The dead are dead. But the families live on.

So, part of what snapped in Kohberger lashed out at parents and siblings of his victims as well. This includes his own family, whom he made into victims and, well, pariahs. He hated college students, young beautiful blonde women (see Elliot Rodger manifesto), hard drinking university students, undergraduates who weren't working hard/struggling to do their best (as he felt he had done). He hated the families of these people - and somewhere inside, he also hated/hates his own family. Mom is massively anti-death penalty; her son goes to a place that has the DP and commits a DP crime (with no insanity defense available). He struck fear into the "party types" across America. He also committed his crimes in a small town; he struck fear into people in less urban places everywhere (like the killers in "In Cold Blood").

He terrorized the college age community and I think the affects are still there (there are maybe 10 online forums about this crime, most of the participants seem to be college age - and I'm sure I haven't counted all of them).

He did this in the midst of an interesting cultural transition in the US (fewer young people are getting married; fewer are having sex; women in particular are having less sex/planning not to ever marry/ planning not to have children). Men are expressing frustration and anger (and entitlement) about this situation every where I go (including my classroom - I'd say that nearly all the men say they won't consider a serious dating relationship with a woman who does not want at least 3 children - preferably more; meanwhile the women have been adamant for the past 20 years that with rare exceptions, they want only 2 - and right now, 20% say they want zero; the men and women argue pretty intensely over this).

Like Elliot Rodger, Kohberger had reasons behind his various targets and I won't be surprised if we eventually learn he had alternate targets (I think he's planning to talk about all this once the trial is over - at least to a criminologist; he may want co-authorship of articles as well).

IOW, there were both personal/structural issues coming to a head; the limits of his already-envisioned plan and already-chosen fantasy targets; PLUS there's an ideological thing going on as well - his targets are not merely personal, he thinks he's some kind of activist. I don't think he charged into King Road with this activism in the forefront of his mind - it's in the background. I do think the troubles at WSU that week/month led directly to him losing it right before the students started trickling away for the holidays. I think the students on King Road were in some sense "stand-ins" for the students he hated back at WSU and also that they were stand-ins for the life he never led and the women who wouldn't have him.

He had envisioned a whole new start in grad school (doesn't everyone?) and felt grad school gave him a Badge of Honor that would trigger a better social life than what he'd had. Instead, he still felt helpless, disoriented, and misunderstood. He likely used the same psychological techniques to amp himself up that he had been using for years in his creeper/stalker phase.

ALL my own SPECULATION and hoping some find this readable or a place to jump off of - as we wait for what is likely to be a trial postponed and a lot of months of very little new information.

TL;DR. Kohberger felt entitled and inadequate; developed real hatred for undergrads and women; acted out for reasons we can only guess at.
Do you foresee the prosecution using the same ideas you have noted as the 'MOTIVE'?
 
Only responding to this question as an exercise in trying to find creative answers to that problem:

- Maybe he didn't care too much about possibly being caught and was only making a half-assed attempt (either consciously / unconsciously);

- Maybe he was under the influence of chemical substances that made him reckless and spontaneous;

- Maybe he was in a state of rage or driven by compulsion so strong that it over-rode usual caution;

- Maybe he had made a plan so meticulous he believed he'd never be suspected, never mind caught;

- Maybe he was well aware of every traffic camera and public camera and street and door camera in the area and implicitly knew his car wouldn't be sighted; (seems rather unlikely)

- Maybe he thought he knew how phone tracking worked and that he was beating the system and not at risk of being identified;

- Maybe he was under some delusion or psychosis and was following some profoundly deranged scheme or plot that couldn't make sense to the rest of us;

- Maybe he was in collaboration with someone else and doing what he was instructed / suggested;

- Maybe he wanted to be close to being caught and have a hunt for him knowing that some of his clues were out there? Thrill of being hunted?

- Maybe he was completely convinced he'd put someone else in the frame and they'd be the one charged?

Just ideas... feel free to add...
If the perpetrator was BK, he indeed, must have driven his own car.
Your third option, "....driven by compulsion so strong that it over-rode usual caution" has always seemed to be the most likely to me.

Having said that, I am rather fond of your seventh suggestion - "Maybe he was under some delusion or psychosis and was following some profoundly deranged scheme or plot that couldn't make sense to the rest of us".

Another thought - Maybe he didn't do it! (JK)
JMO MOO
 
New episode of the ABC “King Road Killings” podcast is up. I think it’s the last one before the trial. They cover some evidence stuff (here’s the evidence we know about, here’s how the defense will likely try to counter it), but they also have a nice interview with Ethan’s family in the back half.

Surprised at how much enjoyed the podcast, unclear just why and embarrassed to admit that my standards seem way too high, easily loose interest and usually it’s simply their voice.

Interview with Ethan’s parents very moving, emotions sent my mind wondering, “how” and “what if”. I so admire the strength and grace, pure class shown by the parents who have spoken publicly. I realize one’s faith can conquer all but honestly not sure I could overcome the anger phase (still despise ex-husband ) especially within just a few months to properly honor my child as I’ve witnessed them so generously accomplish with their community initiatives (Maddie May Day, Scholarship, the Tulip project for Ethan Smiles [IIRC], etc. Their heartfelt acts of benefiting others after suffering such a horrific loss in such a public forum while also seeking justice makes this case even more tragic. Opportunity was viciously silenced, never to realize the full potential for life in the 4 young adults who were obviously raised and guided by these amazing parents to achieve personal greatness- true loss to society.
Not trying to label as saintly but as loving and caring with expectations of truly giving from the heart, which is the greatest gift one can bestow on a child. What if life was just that honest and sincere, how would those characteristics have influenced November 2022?

Guess way too much emotion scattered with wishful thinking for simply sharing my personal opinion on a podcast- a must listen
 
If the perpetrator was BK, he indeed, must have driven his own car.
Your third option, "....driven by compulsion so strong that it over-rode usual caution" has always seemed to be the most likely to me.

Having said that, I am rather fond of your seventh suggestion - "Maybe he was under some delusion or psychosis and was following some profoundly deranged scheme or plot that couldn't make sense to the rest of us".

Another thought - Maybe he didn't do it! (JK)
JMO MOO

Ah yes, I should have said 'if guilty' of course

I'm currently reading Elliot Rodgers autobiography / manifesto online, since a forum member mentioned it and having got already 67 pages in of 137, started doing some research and watched the interview with his father. I'm starting to understand the 'incel' stuff in a way that I've never comprehended. It's heartbreaking and compelling to get to grips with. That people suffering this type of hurt are processing it in the way that they want to kill as many people as possible.

I can see why people keep speculating this about BK now.
 
His PA tag was still valid and current until the following early part of 2023 IIRC. Some have speculated he had to change his plates to WA either by law (X amount of days after moving to a new state, but he had been in WA since June) or for some student financial advantage.

I don't know if those are facts, just what I remember from being discussed way back when. :)

I personally think he changed them 5 days after the murders to throw suspicion off his car, especially regarding front and back license plates.

MOO
How odd this was to change his plate ( effective nov18 ) and yet a few weeks later … Dec 14 I think, move with father all the way back to PA . I don’t know if he was creating the intention to go back to Washington but I had the impression he left his place tidy and presumably didn’t know at that stage he had lost his TA position.
I’m guessing he thought he wouldn’t be caught and come January he’d just return to Pullman…. But why sell a PA car in PA with Washington plates?
 
His PA tag was still valid and current until the following early part of 2023 IIRC. Some have speculated he had to change his plates to WA either by law (X amount of days after moving to a new state, but he had been in WA since June) or for some student financial advantage.

I don't know if those are facts, just what I remember from being discussed way back when. :)

I personally think he changed them 5 days after the murders to throw suspicion off his car, especially regarding front and back license plates.

MOO
BBM

"Kohberger registered his white Elantra in Washington state on Nov. 18 -- five days after the murders -- and received a new license plate, according to the documents. The car had previously been registered in Pennsylvania and his Pennsylvania plate was set to expire on Nov. 30."

His tags would have expired before his trip back home to PA.

from:
 
Ah yes, I should have said 'if guilty' of course

I'm currently reading Elliot Rodgers autobiography / manifesto online, since a forum member mentioned it and having got already 67 pages in of 137, started doing some research and watched the interview with his father. I'm starting to understand the 'incel' stuff in a way that I've never comprehended. It's heartbreaking and compelling to get to grips with. That people suffering this type of hurt are processing it in the way that they want to kill as many people as possible.

I can see why people keep speculating this about BK now.
I am one of those that are intrigued by the parallels between Rodgers and BK. In the case of Rodgers he was in therapy many times yet never diagnosed with a mental illness. 10ofRods has done a great job of providing some insight into the mental aspects of the human mind and possibly what drove BK. We still come backi to the same conclusion that we do not really understand what happens to some people to go off the rails and do what they do. JMO
 
New episode of the ABC “King Road Killings” podcast is up. I think it’s the last one before the trial. They cover some evidence stuff (here’s the evidence we know about, here’s how the defense will likely try to counter it), but they also have a nice interview with Ethan’s family in the back half.
Thank you - and especially thank you for letting us know that the podcast included an interview with Ethan's parents (beginning at 28:22). It was a repeat of an interview they gave at the Tulip Valley Farm in April (date and location from the podcast), but it was well worth listening to again (despite causing instant tears).

I also listened to Ben Mogen say that (if found guilty) life in prison might be enough... (at abt 19:50), which doesn't match the media claim that Maddie's family wants the death penalty, so I found that interesting. Thank you again.

Link 1:
Idaho murder victims' parents divided over death penalty for killer

and Newsweek links their source for that info from this article:
Death penalty sought for accused Idaho student killer

The link to this ABC podcast is:
The King Road Killings: An Idaho Murder Mystery: Unresolved on Apple Podcasts
 
Surprised at how much enjoyed the podcast, unclear just why and embarrassed to admit that my standards seem way too high, easily loose interest and usually it’s simply their voice.

Interview with Ethan’s parents very moving, emotions sent my mind wondering, “how” and “what if”. I so admire the strength and grace, pure class shown by the parents who have spoken publicly. I realize one’s faith can conquer all but honestly not sure I could overcome the anger phase (still despise ex-husband ) especially within just a few months to properly honor my child as I’ve witnessed them so generously accomplish with their community initiatives (Maddie May Day, Scholarship, the Tulip project for Ethan Smiles [IIRC], etc. Their heartfelt acts of benefiting others after suffering such a horrific loss in such a public forum while also seeking justice makes this case even more tragic. Opportunity was viciously silenced, never to realize the full potential for life in the 4 young adults who were obviously raised and guided by these amazing parents to achieve personal greatness- true loss to society.
Not trying to label as saintly but as loving and caring with expectations of truly giving from the heart, which is the greatest gift one can bestow on a child. What if life was just that honest and sincere, how would those characteristics have influenced November 2022?

Guess way too much emotion scattered with wishful thinking for simply sharing my personal opinion on a podcast- a must listen
DBM - you've said it all so beautifully
 
I’m hoping there might be evidence in the form of messages from roommates (individually or on a group text) that pinpoint when a commotion was heard and/or when the masked person was seen. For example, messages asking others to keep the noise level down, or asking to confirm if someone was believed to be in the house, or asking if everything is okay due to hearing crying or other sounds of potential distress, or commenting about the sighting of a man in a mask. Absence of that type of info in the PCA does not necessarily mean it doesn’t exist. JMO.

The only MSM that reported any communication immediately after BK walked past roommate was in the Daily Mail, February 5, 2023. The article states roommate DM called each roommate but went unanswered.
I’m having trouble attaching that article. As with other reporting not supported by LE release of info not sure if accurate.
 
The only MSM that reported any communication immediately after BK walked past roommate was in the Daily Mail, February 5, 2023. The article states roommate DM called each roommate but went unanswered.
I’m having trouble attaching that article. As with other reporting not supported by LE release of info not sure if accurate.
We do not know yet what other evidence LE may have about all text messages. I am sure they have much more than what has been released. MOO
 
The only MSM that reported any communication immediately after BK walked past roommate was in the Daily Mail, February 5, 2023. The article states roommate DM called each roommate but went unanswered.
I’m having trouble attaching that article. As with other reporting not supported by LE release of info not sure if accurate.
DailyMail is doing what NewsNation is doing and scraping Reddit for rumors/gossip/innuendo the day of and the day after the murders. The official subreddit of Moscow Idaho was filled with early details, some which eventually made the PCA. As friends of the victims and other college students were gathering there to share what they knew. This is typical of any mass event or tragedy on Reddit. People congregate to the local sub.

Moderators of that subreddit severely cracked down in the days following the murders, banning, locking and deleting in mass. They essentially forced people into the newly created subreddits specifically dedicated to the crime. There, most of the 1st hand / 2nd hand information was drown out by true crime sleuths and rampant speculation. The people with 1st and 2nd hand information either lost interest or were driven off.

A great example is that DMs story was widely shared as early as 11/14. But people were in such disbelief that someone could wait that long to call the police that they largely dismissed it as implausible. It wasn't until the PCA was released that people saw that it was in fact true.

The DailyMail tends to include screenshots from Reddit when doing things like this. I've seen NewsNation stories that wholesale take posts word for word and attribute it to "sources are saying".

MOO
 
There is a building that houses over 2000 “boxes”, most in the name of LLCs, in my industry. It makes it very difficult for them to be sued. Many are slumlords who skirt any system, and have lawyers that make it difficult to sue. However, I don’t think that anyone is receiving packages to the PO Boxes there. Just checks.

I’ve had Amazon issues when delivering to hinky addresses. Will Amazon deliver to a PO Box? I know I even had to fudge the address for my kid’s college packages and write it differently.
All private box providers are considered commercial mail‐receiving agencies. In order for the USPS to recognize them as a valid address and deliver mail there they need to follow all of the laws/rules and guidelines. Including requiring two forms of ID from all box owners. This includes LLC holders. So hiding behind a registered agent isn't even going to work.

I'm not saying that these boxes aren't still used for nefarious means. As is inherent in anything that is used to obscure personal information. But you gotta commit to full blown federal mail fraud and identity fraud to pull it off.

As far as I know, USPS is the only carrier that delivers to PO boxes.
Can confirm. I opted for a UPS mailbox for my business specifically because I could receive parcels to it. It was open 24/7 and every inch was covered in cameras. It was still shady and creepy showing up at midnight though.
 
We do not know yet what other evidence LE may have about all text messages. I am sure they have much more than what has been released. MOO
He had a Android device. If he was using native SMS then LE likely has access to all of his text messages as those are routed unencrypted to AT&T and catalogued by them. If he was using RCS (low adoption thus far on Android) they still might be able to access said messages. As encryption is done by Google off of the phone and a local encryption standard and method is still being figured out.

If he used WhatsApp and deleted his messages then they are likely gone.

Messages on iOS provides end to end encryption at all points. So deleting them pretty much means they are gone for good in most cases. Let's all celebrate the fact that BK didn't have an iPhone.

EDIT: I see you're referring to the victims. My bad. I think they'll likely have access to all of the victims messages. There are complications of course. Without their passcodes (if they had any) it will be really difficult to get into the phone on an Apple device. Apple tends to not play nice with Law Enforcement without the permission of the phone owner. Meaning the phone would wipe itself before LE could guess the right password.

One saving grace is that these are all college students who's parents are likely paying for their phones or have them under a family plan. So they should be able to provide that permission.
 
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I am one of those that are intrigued by the parallels between Rodgers and BK. In the case of Rodgers he was in therapy many times yet never diagnosed with a mental illness. 10ofRods has done a great job of providing some insight into the mental aspects of the human mind and possibly what drove BK. We still come backi to the same conclusion that we do not really understand what happens to some people to go off the rails and do what they do. JMO
Good point, @Ksfarmer8. That's in the back of my mind too, the potential parallels between Rodgers and BK. JMO
 
I wanted to share a comment from a couple of seasoned Idaho attorneys who were guests on a podcast. One attorney is a recently retired prosecutor after more than 30 years.

They are not liking BK being allowed to wear civilian clothes in Court during his pretrial hearings!

It's long-established that Courts will grant defendants permission to dress out (wear civilian clothes) during the trial or whenever the jurors are present so that the defendant is not prejudiced by being seen in Court wearing jail garb which is generally because the defendant was unable to make bail.

What's bothersome to these attorneys about BK dressing out is that other defendants are still wearing their orange jumpsuits to court for pretrial hearings/appearances, and it has the appearance of BK being allowed special privileges.

However, I've also seen this for the first time, defendants dressing out for pretrial hearings, in both Colorado and Utah where it's also very unusual since neither state allows cameras/live streaming but I believe what we are seeing now are concessions the Courts are making that are a direct result of emergency practices Ordered during Covid such as the introduction of virtual hearings via WebEx.

Nonetheless, given the gag order on this case, and the defense wanting cameras banned, I too am surprised that the defendant was granted permission to dress out for court before his trial. So what happened between his arraignment and June 9 when he started dressing out for court? Was this a defense motion I missed? MOO
Wowza, good points @Seattle1 ! If it's 'not normal' for BK to be 'dressing out', it smacks of privilege to me. JMO
 
<modsnip - quoted post contained a quote from a podcast without attribution>


Not finding any news on a Defense Motion but additional MSM comments about BK dressing out:

6/28/23

1688617776086.png

Some social media users have commented on the difference between Bryan Kohberger's orange jumpsuit when he entered the courtroom for his arraignment hearing in Latah County District Court, May 22, 2023, in Moscow, Idaho, and his suited attire when he entered the courtroom for a motion hearing regarding a gag order in Latah County District Court on June 9, 2023, in Moscow, Idaho.

Neama Rahmani, the President of West Coast Trial Lawyers and former federal prosecutor, told Newsweek that he expects Kohberger to arrive in court in a suit and not handcuffed for future appearances and at trial.

"Wearing an orange prison jumpsuit or handcuffs is prejudicial, and juries implicitly believe that a defendant is guilty despite the presumption of innocence. That's why defense lawyers almost always put their clients in formal or business attire, and judges regularly grant defense requests for the same," Rahmani told Newsweek.

Michael McAuliffe, an elected state attorney and former federal prosecutor, told Newsweek on Wednesday that Kohberger wearing a suit "doesn't change the quantum of evidence against the defendant for the four murders or the fact that the State is seeking to execute him."

 
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RE: Missing Motion for Street Clothes

<modsnip - quoted post contained a quote from a podcast without attribution>

I searched a couple times for BK's/Defendant's Motion to Appear in Street Clothes; found nothing unless it's one of those motions under seal before June 9.

Doubt many other inmates have the same media concerns as BK. So. Apparently street clothes are not considered a privilege but a fair-trial-necessity if cameras are allowed, even for delayed viewing. Get it, jury pool contamination concerns.
AFAIK a motion would be required for any deviation from standard procedure, wouldn't it?
Could AT just not bother to file a motion for street clothes? Maybe AT and Thompson agreed in person/in camera with the judge -- but wouldn't an order still be recorded? IMO Not filing a motion or receiving an order would be the privilege few would receive.

Compare Lori Daybell: Even Co-Defendant Vallow Daybell filed a motion to appear in street clothes on September 9, 2022 which the State had to agree to. State agreed but a month later in October requested in relation to the media’s access to images of the Defendants, the State’s concern regarding jury contamination has been dispelled, and the State would request absent a finding to deviate from the standard procedures, the Defendants no longer be allowed to appear in street clothes. Lori Vallow Daybell street clothes motion page 19

Confused JMO
 
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