4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

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Defense is trying their case in the news media because it will be much harder once the trial begins and the prosecution reveals their evidence. It's a shame if the taxpayers are having to bear the cost of all this.
I don't understand your reasoning; the defense has asked for the strictest interpretation of the gag order at every turn. I don't recall anyone from the defense speaking openly to the media.

It isn't AT's fault that her pleadings are public record by law; nor is it her fault that sharper posters than I gleam all sorts of info from those filings.
 
I don't understand your reasoning; the defense has asked for the strictest interpretation of the gag order at every turn. I don't recall anyone from the defense speaking openly to the media.

It isn't AT's fault that her pleadings are public record by law; nor is it her fault that sharper posters than I gleam all sorts of info from those filings.
One thing I've noticed is that in the publicly available portions of the State's pre-trial motions that I've read, the language and style is straight-forward, respectful, factual and non-dramatic.Moo. Or at least that is the tone, Imo. Substance but not drama. The same cannot be said for some of the Defense's motions Moo- especially in regard to style and drama, Imo. I'm talking about some of D's responses in its motions to the State not its motions concerning the media and the gag order. And I'm only referencing style and what Imo is dramatics in written motions. I understand that at trial and hearings dramatics occur. Jay Logsdon's wording, style and dramatic language stand out to me especially in parts of the following. And this reminds me of the style of media reporting to which both the Defense and the State have objected to.


Moo.
 
RE: Missing Motion for Street Clothes

Surprised me too @Seattle1 I searched a couple times for BK's/Defendant's Motion to Appear in Street Clothes; found nothing unless it's one of those motions under seal before June 9.

Doubt many other inmates have the same media concerns as BK. So. Apparently street clothes are not considered a privilege but a fair-trial-necessity if cameras are allowed, even for delayed viewing. Get it, jury pool contamination concerns.
AFAIK a motion would be required for any deviation from standard procedure, wouldn't it?
Could AT just not bother to file a motion for street clothes? Maybe AT and Thompson agreed in person/in camera with the judge -- but wouldn't an order still be recorded? IMO Not filing a motion or receiving an order would be the privilege few would receive.

Compare Lori Daybell: Even Co-Defendant Vallow Daybell filed a motion to appear in street clothes on September 9, 2022 which the State had to agree to. State agreed but a month later in October requested in relation to the media’s access to images of the Defendants, the State’s concern regarding jury contamination has been dispelled, and the State would request absent a finding to deviate from the standard procedures, the Defendants no longer be allowed to appear in street clothes. Lori Vallow Daybell street clothes motion page 19

Confused JMO

I believe you're correct that this must have been a defense Motion filed during the period they were under seal. This is definitely a ruling rendered by the Court and not something that could be agreed to by the attorneys. At best, the Prosecutor may have indicated to the defense that he wouldn't oppose the defense Motion. As for the jury pool, I'm reading there's little doubt one side or the other is expected to request a change of venue -- perhaps as far as Boise which is about 300 miles away.

For an example of the defendant wearing civilian clothes, in the case of UT''s Kouri Richins, last month the prosecutor filed a Motion for a Gag Order similar to the Gag Order imposed on BK's case, while the defense filed a Motion described as follows:

Then on Thursday, defense attorneys filed a motion asking that Richins be allowed “to appear at all in-court proceedings in civilian clothes instead of a prison uniform and without restraint by any means, including shackles.”

In addition, the defense is asking that once the trial begins, that measures be taken to make sure jurors never see Richins in restraints either in or outside the courtroom, and that should their client be found guilty, that the same rules continue to apply during a sentencing hearing.

“Due to the nature of the charges in this case and the publicity the case has generated, media coverage of the accused dressed in prison garb creates a great potential for harm,” the defense argues in its motion. “Ms. Richins contends that the death penalty’s unique nature heightens her right to be free from these impairments.”


While the Judge granted the defense Motion for the defendant to dress out for Court, the request for no restraints/shackles was denied where the Court provided that the County Sheriff is responsible for courtroom security services. Here, I trust the BK's defense also relied on the subject of the death penalty in the defense's Motion for civilian clothes. MOO

 
So am I to gather then, that the more heinous the crime one commits, the nicer you're allowed dress?

Isn't this a manipulation of the potential jury pool? For example, if the state requested an accused wear the old fashioned black and white striped uniform that chain gangs used to wear, rather than the current orange jumpsuit, wouldn't the defense object? So why then is it permitted to upgrade an accused criminal's appearance from the norm?

The potential jury pool can be influenced in either direction - and neither should be acceptable. MOO.
 
So am I to gather then, that the more heinous the crime one commits, the nicer you're allowed dress?

Isn't this a manipulation of the potential jury pool? For example, if the state requested an accused wear the old fashioned black and white striped uniform that chain gangs used to wear, rather than the current orange jumpsuit, wouldn't the defense object? So why then is it permitted to upgrade an accused criminal's appearance from the norm?

The potential jury pool can be influenced in either direction - and neither should be acceptable. MOO.
I believe it has to do with Presumption of innocence:

From the Legal Information Institute - Cornell Law School

The presumption of innocence is not guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution. However, through statutes and court decisions–such as the U.S. Supreme Court case of Taylor v. Kentucky–it has been recognized as one of the most basic requirements of a fair trial.

 
I believe it has to do with Presumption of innocence:

From the Legal Information Institute - Cornell Law School

The presumption of innocence is not guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution. However, through statutes and court decisions–such as the U.S. Supreme Court case of Taylor v. Kentucky–it has been recognized as one of the most basic requirements of a fair trial.

If this is so, then it should be applied across the board.

It should not be contingent upon the severity of the accused crime.

Edited for moo.
 
It is totally impractical to have a suit / civilian clothes laundered and ready by the prison/jail for each and every defendant's court appearance. Think about the complications.

Have to keep each's clothes separate, pants, shoes, socks, underwear, etc.

Uniforms are there for a good reason. Your size is all that matters after laundering.

JMO
 
RE: Missing Motion for Street Clothes

Surprised me too @Seattle1 I searched a couple times for BK's/Defendant's Motion to Appear in Street Clothes; found nothing unless it's one of those motions under seal before June 9.

Doubt many other inmates have the same media concerns as BK. So. Apparently street clothes are not considered a privilege but a fair-trial-necessity if cameras are allowed, even for delayed viewing. Get it, jury pool contamination concerns.
AFAIK a motion would be required for any deviation from standard procedure, wouldn't it?
Could AT just not bother to file a motion for street clothes? Maybe AT and Thompson agreed in person/in camera with the judge -- but wouldn't an order still be recorded? IMO Not filing a motion or receiving an order would be the privilege few would receive.

Compare Lori Daybell: Even Co-Defendant Vallow Daybell filed a motion to appear in street clothes on September 9, 2022 which the State had to agree to. State agreed but a month later in October requested in relation to the media’s access to images of the Defendants, the State’s concern regarding jury contamination has been dispelled, and the State would request absent a finding to deviate from the standard procedures, the Defendants no longer be allowed to appear in street clothes. Lori Vallow Daybell street clothes motion page 19

Confused JMO
Could it be a safety issue? Not as easy a target as an orange jumpsuit?
 
Could it be a safety issue? Not as easy a target as an orange jumpsuit?

What is that old saying? You can put lipstick on a pig, etc.


Either way, that is an unflattering photo. Focus on the individual, the rest is semantics. Or don't focus on his appearance at all, just the facts.
 
<modsnip - quoted post contained a quote from a podcast without attribution>

Logically, I understand allowing defendants to wear a suit at trial but being accused of a more high-profile, more heinous crime shouldn't mean you get to put a better foot forward all the way through. If other defendants wear their orange jumpsuits to court for hearings, then so should he.

That reminds me of when they put makeup over the dark shadows around Zach Adams' eyes so he didn't look like a freak from a horror movie during his trial for murdering Holly Bobo. That's not putting on a defense, it's mounting a Production. Why don't we just start giving out awards? Best makeup in a Defense Production, for heaven's sake. Grr.
 
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It is totally impractical to have a suit / civilian clothes laundered and ready by the prison/jail for each and every defendant's court appearance. Think about the complications.

Have to keep each's clothes separate, pants, shoes, socks, underwear, etc.

Uniforms are there for a good reason. Your size is all that matters after laundering.

JMO

I am presuming he and/or his attorney insisted he wear a suit- I don't understand why he would want to wear a suit for pre-trial hearings- except that he believes he is so special he should be allowed to do that.
 
That reminds me of when they put makeup over the dark shadows around Zach Adams' eyes so he didn't look like a freak from a horror movie during his trial for murdering Holly Bobo. That's not putting on a defense, it's mounting a Production. Why don't we just start giving out awards? Best makeup in a Defense Production, for heaven's sake. Grr.
RSBM

Having read a bunch of historical true crime... it's ALWAYS been a production. Chicago was a contemporaneous commentary on the showbizness of murder trials. The Girls of Murder City was written in recent years about the true cases and events. Clarence Darrow made a storied career as a defense attorney (though his life not without scandal). He opposed the death penalty and had an incredibly good record at saving his clients from it. Using the media has always been done to varying degrees by both sides, especially in DP cases. Nothing new under the sun. But a defense attorney's job in a DP case, first and foremost, is to save their client's life. And if that means giving their client clothing, makeup, a shave or a haircut, or coaching on expressions and body language, then they will do it.

MOO
 
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RSBM

Having read a bunch of historical true crime... it's ALWAYS been a production. Chicago was a contemporaneous commentary on the showbizness of murder trials. The Girls of Murder City was written in recent years about the true cases and events. Clarence Darrow made a storied career as a defense attorney (though his life not without scandal). He opposed the death penalty and had incredibly good record at saving his clients from it. Using the media has always been done to varying dgrees by both sides, especially in DP cases. Nothing new under the sun. But a defense attorney's job in a DP case, first and foremost, is to save their client's life. And if that means giving their client clothing, makeup, a shave or a haircut, or coaching on expressions and body language, then they will do it.

MOO
I can hardly tolerate seeing alleged murderers all gussied up in a suit for a trial- a suit of course, which they never wore until they were a criminal defendant- but I digress-

What is the point of getting gussied up for a pre-trial hearing? there isn't a point. I can understand defense attorneys doing whatever they can to present their client in a better light FOR A TRIAL
 
I don't understand your reasoning; the defense has asked for the strictest interpretation of the gag order at every turn. I don't recall anyone from the defense speaking openly to the media.

It isn't AT's fault that her pleadings are public record by law; nor is it her fault that sharper posters than I gleam all sorts of info from those filings.

One might also argue that she's "having it both ways". She knows what she's doing. JMO
 
I can hardly tolerate seeing alleged murderers all gussied up in a suit for a trial- a suit of course, which they never wore until they were a criminal defendant- but I digress-

What is the point of getting gussied up for a pre-trial hearing? there isn't a point. I can understand defense attorneys doing whatever they can to present their client in a better light FOR A TRIAL
Everything that happens up to the point of a trial has an effect on public perceptions. The defense job starts the moment they're hired for the job, not at jury selection, and that isn't just to do with motions and discovery, it's about working with a client so that they can present them in the most favourable light possible, and that involves working with them to decide on how they're going to present themselves in the courtroom, including the pretrial appearances and hearings. So, that's working with them on styling, on how they walk, sit, speak... all that. And of course, you're going to get some clients more amenable to that than others. BK, at this point, seems to be being compliant and listening to his counsel's advice. That may continue, or he may go off piste once there's a real audience. The fact that he's turning up groomed, attentive, appropriately mannered, is going to, bare minimum, make an impression on the judge. Remember all Letecia Stauch's tantrums and misbehaviours and acting up pretrial? She made such an impression with that that there were orders to do with forcing her compliance, and Judge Werner even asked that the laptops be bolted to the tables at trial so that they weren't able to become projectiles if she kicked off. I don't think we're going to see that kind of acting up with BK. Whatever his intelligence or ego, he seems to have worked out, at this point, anyway, that compliance is the smartest move.

MOO
 
I don't understand your reasoning; the defense has asked for the strictest interpretation of the gag order at every turn. I don't recall anyone from the defense speaking openly to the media.

It isn't AT's fault that her pleadings are public record by law; nor is it her fault that sharper posters than I gleam all sorts of info from those filings.
I agree, AT's just doing the job she's paid to do. As it is, she's got an uphill climb.

JMO
 
DailyMail is doing what NewsNation is doing and scraping Reddit for rumors/gossip/innuendo the day of and the day after the murders. The official subreddit of Moscow Idaho was filled with early details, some which eventually made the PCA. As friends of the victims and other college students were gathering there to share what they knew. This is typical of any mass event or tragedy on Reddit. People congregate to the local sub.

Moderators of that subreddit severely cracked down in the days following the murders, banning, locking and deleting in mass. They essentially forced people into the newly created subreddits specifically dedicated to the crime. There, most of the 1st hand / 2nd hand information was drown out by true crime sleuths and rampant speculation. The people with 1st and 2nd hand information either lost interest or were driven off.

A great example is that DMs story was widely shared as early as 11/14. But people were in such disbelief that someone could wait that long to call the police that they largely dismissed it as implausible. It wasn't until the PCA was released that people saw that it was in fact true.

The DailyMail tends to include screenshots from Reddit when doing things like this. I've seen NewsNation stories that wholesale take posts word for word and attribute it to "sources are saying".

MOO

Thanks that makes sense.
 
My own view on what might have "triggered" the murders on that weekend run more to the cumulative stressors in Kohberger's life.

Lots of people who are into true crime are also into thinking about crime. We even joke here on WS about "writing a novel" about crime and using some of the specifics of real crimes. People who spend a lot of time thinking about crime and studying crime end up knowing way more about crime.

Do such people sometimes fantasize about committing crimes? Yes.

IOW, I think Kohberger had put in hours of thinking about crime, about how people get caught, what he would do if he wanted to go homicidal. I also have a theory that this type of fantasy helped him self-soothe. Made him less anxious. It's well-known that fantasies can reduce uncomfortable or undesirable drives that lead to undesirable behaviors.

In terms of narrowing down why he finally went off the rails (which he may not have intended to do when he used those crime fantasies are part of his personal stress reduction system), I think it's important to look at the structural conditions of his life - in other words, really obvious facts.

He had vastly increased his "opportunity" window by moving out of his parents' home and across the country. I believe he began thinking about peeping, creeping and more while back in PA, but that he was immediately engaged in this kind of "recon" when he got to the dual campuses in WA and ID. The absence, at last, of parental supervision (and maybe even sisterly comment) was achieved.

But it was also a very high stress environment for him. I believe he wanted to excel in school, in criminology. He felt he had loads and loads of insight to offer (why was that? Because he felt he had a criminal mind that he had "turned to the good.") Why do I believe that? Because I've met several people who thought this way and who are criminals (two of them are criminal cops).

When it became clear that he was not accepted in a special group of people (fellow criminologists), he was hurt, outraged and on edge. He wanted to "show 'em."

This state could have gone on longer without him killing but something (perhaps the near certainty of losing his TA-ship) pushed him into overdrive. We don't know if he had targets elsewhere, if that woman in his program who allowed him into her apartment escaped by the skin of her teeth, or not.

So, my thinking is that he resisted certain other stalked targets (and was probably thinking about young women as targets day-in and day-out) and focused on a few other factors that are often spoken of under the topic of "victimology." How does a killer choose their targets?

I think he knew crimes committed in another jurisdiction (than where one's own ID shows a residence) are less likely to be solved. So he likely focused on Moscow as his fantasy crime target. I think he had shifting targets in his mind and may still have been pondering exactly who to pick on that night in November. And here's where this thinking has led me:

The murderer was filled with anger and resentment at a particular situation and particular targets. Specifically, he was jealous of the free and easy, ordinary college life of 18-22 year olds, especially ones regarded as beautiful, handsome and popular. I believe he had been to the party scene in Moscow and found himself (once again) on the outside. He likely was unable to focus on his own interpersonal skills as part of this; there were real barriers to being accepted by undergrads because...of his intensity, and his actual age. He may even have pictured university life to be a more...academic experience. What he found instead was tons of underage drinking, superficial silliness on weekends, junk food eating, general partying - and probably, quite a bit of sexual license.

But even among these (to his mind) bacchanalian students, he was unacceptable. Even when drunk, sorority girls ignored him and turned to others. He could not find the magic way that other young men had of entering fully into university society and so, he was very angry at university society and part of his motivation was landing blows on that very society.

The victims in this crime go beyond the murder victims. I don't think Kohberger is the type who spends a lot of time in compassion towards others or thinks about souls or the value of human life. The dead are dead. But the families live on.

So, part of what snapped in Kohberger lashed out at parents and siblings of his victims as well. This includes his own family, whom he made into victims and, well, pariahs. He hated college students, young beautiful blonde women (see Elliot Rodger manifesto), hard drinking university students, undergraduates who weren't working hard/struggling to do their best (as he felt he had done). He hated the families of these people - and somewhere inside, he also hated/hates his own family. Mom is massively anti-death penalty; her son goes to a place that has the DP and commits a DP crime (with no insanity defense available). He struck fear into the "party types" across America. He also committed his crimes in a small town; he struck fear into people in less urban places everywhere (like the killers in "In Cold Blood").

He terrorized the college age community and I think the affects are still there (there are maybe 10 online forums about this crime, most of the participants seem to be college age - and I'm sure I haven't counted all of them).

He did this in the midst of an interesting cultural transition in the US (fewer young people are getting married; fewer are having sex; women in particular are having less sex/planning not to ever marry/ planning not to have children). Men are expressing frustration and anger (and entitlement) about this situation every where I go (including my classroom - I'd say that nearly all the men say they won't consider a serious dating relationship with a woman who does not want at least 3 children - preferably more; meanwhile the women have been adamant for the past 20 years that with rare exceptions, they want only 2 - and right now, 20% say they want zero; the men and women argue pretty intensely over this).

Like Elliot Rodger, Kohberger had reasons behind his various targets and I won't be surprised if we eventually learn he had alternate targets (I think he's planning to talk about all this once the trial is over - at least to a criminologist; he may want co-authorship of articles as well).

IOW, there were both personal/structural issues coming to a head; the limits of his already-envisioned plan and already-chosen fantasy targets; PLUS there's an ideological thing going on as well - his targets are not merely personal, he thinks he's some kind of activist. I don't think he charged into King Road with this activism in the forefront of his mind - it's in the background. I do think the troubles at WSU that week/month led directly to him losing it right before the students started trickling away for the holidays. I think the students on King Road were in some sense "stand-ins" for the students he hated back at WSU and also that they were stand-ins for the life he never led and the women who wouldn't have him.

He had envisioned a whole new start in grad school (doesn't everyone?) and felt grad school gave him a Badge of Honor that would trigger a better social life than what he'd had. Instead, he still felt helpless, disoriented, and misunderstood. He likely used the same psychological techniques to amp himself up that he had been using for years in his creeper/stalker phase.

ALL my own SPECULATION and hoping some find this readable or a place to jump off of - as we wait for what is likely to be a trial postponed and a lot of months of very little new information.

TL;DR. Kohberger felt entitled and inadequate; developed real hatred for undergrads and women; acted out for reasons we can only guess at.
Nailed by you every time! Your post are insightful and am waiting for your book to come out ;). He’s a true narcissist ... is willing to destroy everything and everyone around when feeling hurt or rejection... Moo
 
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RSBM

Having read a bunch of historical true crime... it's ALWAYS been a production. Chicago was a contemporaneous commentary on the showbizness of murder trials. The Girls of Murder City was written in recent years about the true cases and events. Clarence Darrow made a storied career as a defense attorney (though his life not without scandal). He opposed the death penalty and had incredibly good record at saving his clients from it. Using the media has always been done to varying dgrees by both sides, especially in DP cases. Nothing new under the sun. But a defense attorney's job in a DP case, first and foremost, is to save their client's life. And if that means giving their client clothing, makeup, a shave or a haircut, or coaching on expressions and body language, then they will do it.

MOO
Thankfully I believe most juries are mindful of the seriousness of their duties and would hopefully not be unduly influenced by a defendant's capacity to wear a suit. I doubt appearance ends up counting for much at the end of the day with a mindful and well instructed jury. Though perhaps for a sentencing jury with the DP a possibility, appearance may have a more subtle influence, Idk. Moo

On a more general note, if trials are viewed as productions then the production of the drama has begun early for the defense Imo. It includes using a certain dramatic style and language in some pre-trial motions not requested to be sealed and therefore available for public consumption. MSM report accordingly Imo. The nascent dynamic production is then disseminated into the public mind and into the minds of potential jurors. Moo

Moo
 
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