4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

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Thankfully I believe most juries are mindful of the seriousness of their duties and would hopefully not be unduly influenced by a defendant's capacity to wear a suit. I doubt appearance ends up counting for much at the end of the day with a mindful and well instructed jury. Though perhaps for a sentencing jury with the DP a possibility, appearance may have a more subtle influence, Idk. Moo

On a more general note, if trials are viewed as productions then the production of the drama has begun early for the defense Imo. It includes using a certain dramatic style and language in some pre-trial motions not requested to be sealed and therefore available for public consumption. MSM report accordingly Imo. The nascent dynamic production is then disseminated into the public mind and into the minds of potential jurors. Moo

Moo
Sadly, a lot of people working as public defenders either have a closet at their work full of donated clothes or even pull from their own wardrobes for clients with no resources because how a client presents DOES have an effect on a jury, and something as simple as not wearing a tie or a buttoned shirt can make a profound difference. As much as we like to think we'll be impartial, we are subconsciously influenced by how an individual dresses and grooms themselves. Being able to put your client in a dress shirt rather than them wearing prison garb or sweats can mean the difference between a custodial sentence and not (not in murder, but with other offenses). It shouldn't, but it does. Dressing your client 'for success' isn't an unfair advantage, it's leveling the field a little.

MOO
 
Sadly, a lot of people working as public defenders either have a closet at their work full of donated clothes or even pull from their own wardrobes for clients with no resources because how a client presents DOES have an effect on a jury, and something as simple as not wearing a tie or a buttoned shirt can make a profound difference. As much as we like to think we'll be impartial, we are subconsciously influenced by how an individual dresses and grooms themselves. Being able to put your client in a dress shirt rather than them wearing prison garb or sweats can mean the difference between a custodial sentence and not (not in murder, but with other offenses). It shouldn't, but it does. Dressing your client 'for success' isn't an unfair advantage, it's leveling the field a little.

MOO
Yes, but ideally a jury would not find a defendant not guilty because of his attire - hopefully the most weight is given to the evidence. With sentencing for DP it may have more of an influence.Jmo.
 
One might also argue that she's "having it both ways". She knows what she's doing. JMO

I, for one, would not like to be AT. Sure, this furthers her career but to what end? If she lives in the victims families community it's not going to be comfortable. Certainly, BK deserves representation. I think we're seeing her step cautiously here but still defend him. The prosecution should have taken more exception, and I would like to see them step their game up! Right now they are in protective mode and maybe can't. JMOO
 
Yes, but ideally a jury would not find a defendant not guilty because of his attire - hopefully the most weight is given to the evidence. With sentencing for DP it may have more of an influence.Jmo.
Ideally, yes. I'd want to hope we could come up with a system that treats everybody equally. Unfortunately, the world we live in is imperfect, as are all of us. I know the clothing thing is probably a big deal for a lot of people on here, and you don't like that he gets 'real' clothing when others wouldn't. To me, the clothing in general isn't a problem, because, like I said, his lawyer knows it makes an impression. But it does point out the inequality in the system. He has resources, has a nice suit he can wear if allowed. Many defendants don't have the resources to do that, even if it's technically allowed.

MOO
 
Thankfully I believe most juries are mindful of the seriousness of their duties and would hopefully not be unduly influenced by a defendant's capacity to wear a suit. I doubt appearance ends up counting for much at the end of the day with a mindful and well instructed jury. Though perhaps for a sentencing jury with the DP a possibility, appearance may have a more subtle influence, Idk. Moo

On a more general note, if trials are viewed as productions then the production of the drama has begun early for the defense Imo. It includes using a certain dramatic style and language in some pre-trial motions not requested to be sealed and therefore available for public consumption. MSM report accordingly Imo. The nascent dynamic production is then disseminated into the public mind and into the minds of potential jurors. Moo

Moo
I agree. Probably part of the prosecution's job is to continually bring the focus back to the victims, and the crimes committed against them. Murder doesn't have to be made into a production, although it likely still is to some effect, on both sides. All I think about when I see BK in his suit is how he seemingly worked so hard to be on the right side of the law, but now, it's like he's playing dress up. JMO. But I've been bitter lately...
 
Ideally, yes. I'd want to hope we could come up with a system that treats everybody equally. Unfortunately, the world we live in is imperfect, as are all of us. I know the clothing thing is probably a big deal for a lot of people on here, and you don't like that he gets 'real' clothing when others wouldn't. To me, the clothing in general isn't a problem, because, like I said, his lawyer knows it makes an impression. But it does point out the inequality in the system. He has resources, has a nice suit he can wear if allowed. Many defendants don't have the resources to do that, even if it's technically allowed.

MOO
I also agree with what you're saying. My MIL would find him Not Guilty if his suit was expensive enough.
 
I can hardly tolerate seeing alleged murderers all gussied up in a suit for a trial- a suit of course, which they never wore until they were a criminal defendant- but I digress-

What is the point of getting gussied up for a pre-trial hearing? there isn't a point. I can understand defense attorneys doing whatever they can to present their client in a better light FOR A TRIAL
It's for the million of views on MSM and SM of BK coming into and out of court and sitting during the hearing that are replayed over and over.

I'd bet the farm AT requested that he be allowed to wear civilian clothing during trial and the Judge agreed. She's doing her job even though it makes me mad. The bolded part makes me feel better about it.

<snipped & BBM>

"Wearing an orange prison jumpsuit or handcuffs is prejudicial, and juries implicitly believe that a defendant is guilty despite the presumption of innocence. That's why defense lawyers almost always put their clients in formal or business attire, and judges regularly grant defense requests for the same," Rahmani told Newsweek.

Michael McAuliffe, an elected state attorney and former federal prosecutor, told Newsweek on Wednesday that Kohberger wearing a suit "doesn't change the quantum of evidence against the defendant for the four murders or the fact that the State is seeking to execute him."

Bryan Kohberger's court hearing shows striking difference in appearance

MOO
 
One thing I've noticed is that in the publicly available portions of the State's pre-trial motions that I've read, the language and style is straight-forward, respectful, factual and non-dramatic.Moo. Or at least that is the tone, Imo. Substance but not drama. The same cannot be said for some of the Defense's motions Moo- especially in regard to style and drama, Imo. I'm talking about some of D's responses in its motions to the State not its motions concerning the media and the gag order. And I'm only referencing style and what Imo is dramatics in written motions. I understand that at trial and hearings dramatics occur. Jay Logsdon's wording, style and dramatic language stand out to me especially in parts of the following. And this reminds me of the style of media reporting to which both the Defense and the State have objected to.


Moo.
ITA J, I was shocked to see how flagrantly fast and loose he was in his wordings against the State. :mad:
 
I don't care if the standard for the accused is to wear a uniform or a business suit or clown suit. But I believe they should all have the same standard. It is an unfair advantage if it's leveling the field a little for some and not all.

If prison garb is the standard then why is BK allowed to rise above that? Are not all accused considered innocent until proven guilty or are some considered more innocent than others - depending upon the public interest in their crime spree?
 
It's for the million of views on MSM and SM of BK coming into and out of court and sitting during the hearing that are replayed over and over.

I'd bet the farm AT requested that he be allowed to wear civilian clothing during trial and the Judge agreed. She's doing her job even though it makes me mad. The bolded part makes me feel better about it.

<snipped & BBM>

"Wearing an orange prison jumpsuit or handcuffs is prejudicial, and juries implicitly believe that a defendant is guilty despite the presumption of innocence. That's why defense lawyers almost always put their clients in formal or business attire, and judges regularly grant defense requests for the same," Rahmani told Newsweek.

Michael McAuliffe, an elected state attorney and former federal prosecutor, told Newsweek on Wednesday that Kohberger wearing a suit "doesn't change the quantum of evidence against the defendant for the four murders or the fact that the State is seeking to execute him."

Bryan Kohberger's court hearing shows striking difference in appearance

MOO
This discussion on clothing worn in court reminds me of a couple of cases. Jose Baez had Casey Anthony wear tops whose sleeves were too long, making her look like a smaller person, perhaps more childlike. And it was discussed that while sitting at the defense table, her chair was positioned lower than the others, creating a similar effect. The Menendez brothers wore shirts with sweaters, making them seem boyish, kind of old-school frat boys perhaps, and they were often referred to as "boys". Clothes can give off these subliminal messages. But having served as a juror 3 times in 2 different states, I will say that it's the evidence presented that convicts, or frees.
 
It is totally impractical to have a suit / civilian clothes laundered and ready by the prison/jail for each and every defendant's court appearance. Think about the complications.

Have to keep each's clothes separate, pants, shoes, socks, underwear, etc.

Uniforms are there for a good reason. Your size is all that matters after laundering.

JMO
I have a nice, easy compromise. Defendants can wear whatever they were wearing when they were arrested.

We might see an uptick in well-dressed criminals. Plan ahead.

Jmo
 
I think the victims themselves can greatly assist in shutting down any challenge by the defense specific to the time of death. For example, the victims were all out late leaving a relatively small window of time when their deaths in their bedrooms were even possible, supported by the victims' use of their electronics, and the surviving roommate's knowledge of when she saw the intruder. The surviving roommate is critical here because she's the only direct evidence -- all the rest is circumstantial. And this ^^ is before you add the ME's report, the timestamped surveillance of BK's vehicle, and BK's cell phone forensics linking him to the crime scene location.

It's not like BK was a student at ISU who lived nearby for the defense to rationalize why BK could be detected in the area during the odd hour! I think it would be an ill-conceived strategy for the defense to even think of challenging the evidence of BK's vehicle passing the house more than once. Actually, it would be downright stupid! MOO

Exactly. It would be hard to believe that while Xana and Ethan were still up and active in the house, that they wouldn't have noticed if an intruder had already been there for an hour or two. I mean, maybe. But even that does little to exonerate Kohberger, unless they could prove it.

Surviving roommate is indeed critical to this timeline. Totally agree about the Defense challenging the video/car/phone evidence (doing that will make the jury think the defense is just a bunch of liars).

IMO.

I've had a mailbox without interruption for 30+ years and they've come a long way.

In addition to being able to see an image of the mail that's waiting for you in your box, any courier service such as FedEx, UPS, DHL, (Amazon, and Ebay), can also deliver to your PO Box by the box holder using the Post Office's street address where the shipment is received directly by the Postal staff (who puts the delivered item in your box or holds it for pickup). Believe me, it was a godsend during COVID!

Also, relative to ordering from Amazon -- there's also the option to collect your order at a
Locker -- or send someone to collect it for you. JMO

Today I learned. I just found out that while it may be *possible* for FedEx and UPS to deliver to a Post Office Box, I went to 3 different branches (2 FedEx, 1 UPS) just this week and they would *not* ship to a P.O. Box. I wish they'd told me that if I could come up with the street address of the PO in Tennessee to which I needed to overnight something, I could have done it. Wish I'd known - thank you! I'm pretty sure the staff at UPS nearest my house has no clue about this.

The Amazon system would work perfectly for someone like Kohberger to collect whatever he wished without anyone else in his family knowing. By car, it's about 12-14 minutes from his house. There's another one more or less on the way to DeSales.

And reminds me that we don't know whether Kohberger visited Pullman before August 2022, do we? If he did go earlier or if he went to visit in June, he had another Amazon option on the table. I'm also guessing that most Amazon locker set-ups have cameras, or at least I'd think so.

Yep, they do have cameras right over the screen where the person enters their code:


IMO
 
This discussion on clothing worn in court reminds me of a couple of cases. Jose Baez had Casey Anthony wear tops whose sleeves were too long, making her look like a smaller person, perhaps more childlike. And it was discussed that while sitting at the defense table, her chair was positioned lower than the others, creating a similar effect. The Menendez brothers wore shirts with sweaters, making them seem boyish, kind of old-school frat boys perhaps, and they were often referred to as "boys". Clothes can give off these subliminal messages. But having served as a juror 3 times in 2 different states, I will say that it's the evidence presented that convicts, or frees.
Anyone who's seen the Netflix special on Sally McNeil, her attorneys, if I recall correctly, ordered her to not work out at all in prison to reduce her bulk for trial and make her look more delicate. I think she'd still get done for manslaughter at the very least if she was in court for the same crime tomorrow (the second shot to the face some time after the first to the body is inescapable), but I think that she'd get a more balanced trial today. We understand domestic abuse much more these days, as well as the effects of steroids, and the original trial and media around the case was full of a LOT of what was essentially transphobia in a different hat. (Though Sally is a cisgender woman, she was a bodybuilder, as was the abusive boyfriend she killed. It made it hard for people to see her as a 'battered woman', though she undoubtedly was one.) Despite that, I think the advice from her lawyers would be much the same today as it was then - lose bulk, act demure, don't take the stand. Sally ignored that last one, and it was probably why she got the sentence she did. She did not do well on the stand, and opened the door for stuff the prosecution could not have otherwise mentioned.

If BK has any sense, he'll stick with being well groomed, dressing nicely when he's allowed, being polite to the judge, and not taking the stand under any circs. Whether his ego allows it remains to be seen.

MOO
 
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This discussion on clothing worn in court reminds me of a couple of cases. Jose Baez had Casey Anthony wear tops whose sleeves were too long, making her look like a smaller person, perhaps more childlike. And it was discussed that while sitting at the defense table, her chair was positioned lower than the others, creating a similar effect. The Menendez brothers wore shirts with sweaters, making them seem boyish, kind of old-school frat boys perhaps, and they were often referred to as "boys". Clothes can give off these subliminal messages. But having served as a juror 3 times in 2 different states, I will say that it's the evidence presented that convicts, or frees.

Fascinating.

Kohberger's clothes IMO position him as if he were a sharply dressed part of the team of lawyers.

It's not just any suit, it's fairly well fitted to him and makes him look as if he had some authority. I was just going over the literature on suit-wearing recently (for an entirely different reason) and while there's nothing really recent on the topic, I think we all know what a man in a suit messages. He looks "well put together."

One thing I find interesting about suit-wearing Kohberger is that the jury will eventually learn that he is in fact, a student. He is dressed up and playing an adult in court, basically. The suit does make him look more mature, IOW. He'll look even older by the time this comes to trial.

Isn't there a motion to stop the clock on speedy trial while they handle however many Defense motions may arise?

This isn't going to go to trial in October, IMO. The legal dance has to be done first and I expect the Court will stop the clock for the motions, but would love to hear others' views. It's interesting to think that the Defense has a budget for all of this. But that budget cannot be unlimited, IMO.

Do you foresee the prosecution using the same ideas you have noted as the 'MOTIVE'?

Motive is not needed for First Degree Murder in this case. Prosecution would run the risk of developing a more sympathetic view for the jury. Defense is clearly committed, so far, to presenting him as "normal." However, I do believe that when he is convicted (and the more stalling done by the Defense, and the more spin they try to use, the more I'm convinced he'll be convicted), then they'll use that part of the story.

If I'm right about how Kohberger handles stress, it's partly a form of self-harm and self-risk and partly giant acting out against society, small towns, students, and his own family. It's in keeping with him doing stuff like stealing his sister's phone - but now at a level that is almost unbelievable. I didn't realize until this case came along that homicidal ideation is uncommon in adolescence - but that it peaks at 15, appears more often in males, and it is much higher in people with certain conditions (the list of conditions is not fully known). There is something adolescent about Kohberger's behavior in that traffic stop with the woman policeman. There was something adolescent about him in general, which may be why he has that little fan club.

But when he wears the suit to court, he looks fully grown up and mature. Sharp and competent.

Studies of convicted (young) murderers show that they have a history of homicidal ideation and one other symptom (paranoia) is consistently associated with homicidal ideation. One study found that motives were divided almost equally between "criminal" (homicide in the commission of some criminal act) and "conflict-based," meaning there was a perceived interpersonal conflict going on between young murderer and victim (usually a family member).


I am not sure why I find the literature on younger murderers intriguing, in this case, as obviously Kohberger was almost 30. I guess I'm thinking about other similar crimes and how Kohberger seems like he's at a younger stage of development than most 30 year olds in terms of his impulsivity and reactivity to events - including his altercations with the professor, his making others uncomfortable etc).

This is not a man possessed of a great deal of insight. He may also have a tendency to believe that others think as he does or that whatever comes into his mind is true and accurate (he probably thinks he has a lot of mental discipline and that by commanding himself to think about one thing or another, he's being "normal" and "prudent"). Since he obviously loses control over behaviors that can't possibly benefit himself or others, his mental self-control is necessary, but it's not "normal." Most people with homicidal ideas never act out on them.

There's still a very long way to go with this kind of research and it's one of the hardest areas of psychiatry/psychology to study experimentally. It almost compels some kind of clinical research. But most people who murder have not sought out clinical treatment beforehand.

IMO.
 
I have a nice, easy compromise. Defendants can wear whatever they were wearing when they were arrested.

We might see an uptick in well-dressed criminals. Plan ahead.

Jmo
Might also see a lot more than we'd like - not everyone is clothed when arrested. Might have to make an exception to 'all rise for the jury'. Please, stay behind the table, sir...

MOO
 
I agree with those attorneys! Logically, I understand allowing defendants to wear a suit at trial but being accused of a more high-profile, more heinous crime shouldn't mean you get to put a better foot forward all the way through. If other defendants wear their orange jumpsuits to court for hearings, then so should he.

That reminds me of when they put makeup over the dark shadows around Zach Adams' eyes so he didn't look like a freak from a horror movie during his trial for murdering Holly Bobo. That's not putting on a defense, it's mounting a Production. Why don't we just start giving out awards? Best makeup in a Defense Production, for heaven's sake. Grr.

You make some really good points. Now I'm feeling embarrassed about my earlier legal consulting (which was for civil cases but still). I was hired to help plaintiffs appear and act better in court. Before I took the job, the firm had other people doing it (one was a private investigator - and he was retiring and he basically trained me and helped me figure out what to do). I was called in most of the time to reframe how women plaintiffs looked and acted, but did work with men as well.

We had a makeup artist on call. Our goal of course was the opposite of making someone look more normal.

If a plaintiff had a limp and a big ole scar from their terrible accident, we wanted the jury to see that.

In one case, the plaintiff had terrible burn scars that she absolutely did not want to have seen in public and yet my job was to assist/help/persuade her to let the scars be seen. I actually found another burn victim (from a case a decade prior) who would come in and sit with her in court. That person was offered pay by the law firm, but she refused, as she and the plaintiff-victim had bonded and were supporting each other. It was very sad. It was actually awful.

However, at the end of that case (she won a huge amount of money), we facilitated her finding yet another plastic surgeon as well as professional makeup help in wig-making and scar-covering. She was very happy with that. And the other burn victim who accompanied her got the same consultation and the same wigs/makeup purchases courtesy of the law firm. At the time, we had some other clients who were frequently at the offices for other reasons and they were flight attendants and pilots - all of them very attractive. So I also coordinated with the lawyers' admins to make sure that our two burn victims did not have to encounter them. The lead attorney took them to court himself, with his Mercedes and his tinted windows.

So yeah, attorneys do have their out-of-court tactics. One goal in the Kohberger situation, I imagine, is to keep him relatively calm and manageable in jail. Giving him a suit is probably a very good idea from that point of view, even if he can only wear it on his (many) court dates. Adds a layer of ordinary human life to his otherwise bleak existence. Also provides something that can be taken away if he doesn't behave. Having a client show up looking calm, poised and relaxed as possible in court is definitely an important strategy - and one used by attorneys in both civil and criminal cases, on both the complaining and the defending sides.

IMO.
 
It might have something to do with Elliott Rodgers Manifesto, particularly pg. 118. I googled Elliott Rodgers manifesto and a pdf came up that is searchable py page number. Very erie.
But the itemized list be LE specifically said "Book". A book with something underlined on Page 118. I don't believe Elliot Rodgers Manifesto was ever made into a book. JMO, I could be wrong.
 
Ideally, yes. I'd want to hope we could come up with a system that treats everybody equally. Unfortunately, the world we live in is imperfect, as are all of us. I know the clothing thing is probably a big deal for a lot of people on here, and you don't like that he gets 'real' clothing when others wouldn't. To me, the clothing in general isn't a problem, because, like I said, his lawyer knows it makes an impression. But it does point out the inequality in the system. He has resources, has a nice suit he can wear if allowed. Many defendants don't have the resources to do that, even if it's technically allowed.

MOO
If the empirical research shows that being dressed in a suit and/or neatly or whatever assists with the public perception of presumption of innocence pre-trial (or alternatively that being in jail garb generates a perception of guilt - which I think is more widely understood) then I agree with @ExpectingUnicorns that all defendants must have the opportunity to wear alternative clothing to jail garb if they choose to. And they should be advised of the benefits by their counsel. If it requires a motion then defendants' counsel should file one. Moo

We don't know if BK's clothing was provided by his own/his family's funds or the defense budget Imo.

For those being publicly defended, if there is enough in the budget for hiring experts to support pre-trial motions on the negative effect of pre-trial publicity then there should be enough in the budget to either purchase or hire appropriate clothing for pre-trial appearences. PDs should have a budget in any event for all defendants who are unable to afford alternative clothing for pre-trial appearances. And it doesn't have to be expensive or necessarily a suit: neat inexpensive clothing would surely suffice. Moo

If there is currently a state of unequal access to alternative pre-trial clothing for public defendants then I don't see why this could not be easily remedied with a slight increase in budgets. Jmo.
 
If the empirical research shows that being dressed in a suit and/or neatly or whatever assists with the public perception of presumption of innocence pre-trial (or alternatively that being in jail garb generates a perception of guilt - which I think is more widely understood) then I agree with @ExpectingUnicorns that all defendants must have the opportunity to wear alternative clothing to jail garb if they choose to. And they should be advised of the benefits by their counsel. If it requires a motion then defendants' counsel should file one. Moo

We don't know if BK's clothing was provided by his own/his family's funds or the defense budget Imo.

For those being publicly defended, if there is enough in the budget for hiring experts to support pre-trial motions on the negative effect of pre-trial publicity then there should be enough in the budget to either purchase or hire appropriate clothing for pre-trial appearences. PDs should have a budget in any event for all defendants who are unable to afford alternative clothing for pre-trial appearances. And it doesn't have to be expensive or necessarily a suit: neat inexpensive clothing would surely suffice. Moo

If there is currently a state of unequal access to alternative pre-trial clothing for public defendants then I don't see why this could not be easily remedied with a slight increase in budgets. Jmo.

I agree in principal, but so many criminal defendants barely even see their lawyers before trial. This is a big DP case, it's not the same. The appeals are certain and expected. Everything will get raised (but not the fact that he was forced to wear an orange jumpsuit).

Many public defenders do manage to get their clients out of jail before trial, so they get to wear whatever clothes they already have (often directed in terms of style by a simple set of instructions from their lawyer - sent by email or given at the 1-2 appointments they do have).

I don't think one can dictate which clothing a defendant can wear, via donation. Since most criminal defendants in the US are in fact wearing their own clothes in trial, we're down to just the few who didn't make bail. And, where I live, if you didn't make bail and have a PD, you are unlikely to get lots of consults and motions out of your PD. This is a death penalty case and has an overall higher budget for the Defense.

I think PD's have to manage their budgets: experts first. But here, I suspect we have a donated suit on Kohberger.

IMO.
 
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