4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

[BeginnerSleuther]

Look at the June 22, 2023 filing and there are many, many articles online about this and it has already been linked here in Websleuths. Google "Bryan Kohberger no connection to victims" to read the articles. The exact quote is this: “There is no connection between Mr. Kohberger and the victims. There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohberger's apartment, office, home, or vehicle.” Basically the defense is arguing that the state targeted their client without having sufficient evidence to do so. It is extremely concerning. Defense attorneys are not going to lie in a document that is filed with the court because they could be in serious trouble for doing so, they could be fined or even disbarred and none of that has occurred, so we have to take this very seriously.

Yeah, I find the notion that AT is playing word games in official court filings to be unrealistic. JMO

 

[SpiderFalcon]

Let’s put it this way: if a lawyer can say that “it all depends on the meaning of the word ‘is’” then another lawyer will have almost infinite scope to play around with the meaning of ‘connection.’ We’d have to be very trusting to think that ‘no connection’ meant ‘no connection at all.’

MOO

There is one BRUTAL and PUBLIC connection, which defies her statement of "no connection". His DNA on the sheath. THAT'S A CONNECTION. Verified.

 

[Boxer]

The timetable seems very doable to me. With a knife like that an attacking people that are half-asleep and/or half drunk in a moment of surprise, he could do that easily in under 8 to 10 minutes. (Try and exercise.. .make a motion to stab repeatedly let's say 20 times, then see how long that took. Or count to 60 seconds ... that is a LONG time.

From the other comment, I sure hope they have more of his DNA or their DNA from his apartment, his car or elsewhere.

I still think that even if he bleach cleaned the car thoroughly, he still left some evidence.

MOO BK would know better than to use bleach.

There are better available OTC evidence destroying agents -
Not sure if they leave as much evidence of use as bleach does.

 

[Boxer]

Yeah, I find the notion that AT is playing word games in official court filings to be unrealistic. JMO

Finding a way to challenge the state's evidence is her job if her client is pleading not guilty.
(Which he made the judge do for him)
She is going to find ways to to do that.



Overstating absence of evidence "where it would be expected" is one way.
I don't expect much physical evidence really, he had time, crime education and some rudimentary military style training on cleaning.
As far as AT is concerned she needs to stomp out the DNA, as it is the big connection.

Speaking of which, hanging around a house of people you have no connection to, is a connection just one the people.are unaware of.

 

[maskedwoman]

There is one BRUTAL and PUBLIC connection, which defies her statement of "no connection". His DNA on the sheath. THAT'S A CONNECTION. Verified.

You're right. The DNA is verified, no question about it. The fact that Logsdon made that assertion after the whole world knows about the DNA is actually what makes me think he's defining "connection" very specifically. Like a school connection, work connection, friends in common, etc. IIRC, he is the same attorney who is so aggressive with his language in other filings.

He also said "There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohberger’s apartment, office, home, or vehicle", which is very aggressive and a little disingenuous. Frankly, I would have been shocked if LE found the victims DNA in Kohbergers office at a school none of them attended, or at his home roughly 2300 miles away. And, as someone else already said, Logsdon's assertions are worded in such a way that they leave a lot of room for evidence we don't yet know about without being accused of lying. MOOooo

 

[jepop]

You're right. The DNA is verified, no question about it. The fact that Logsdon made that assertion after the whole world knows about the DNA is actually what makes me think he's defining "connection" very specifically. Like a school connection, work connection, friends in common, etc. IIRC, he is the same attorney who is so aggressive with his language in other filings.

He also said "There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohberger’s apartment, office, home, or vehicle", which is very aggressive and a little disingenuous. Frankly, I would have been shocked if LE found the victims DNA in Kohbergers office at a school none of them attended, or at his home roughly 2300 miles away. And, as someone else already said, Logsdon's assertions are worded in such a way that they leave a lot of room for evidence we don't yet know about without being accused of lying. MOOooo

Spot on, well said. Moo

 

[Megnut]

Murphy is a (floppy, friendly, lovable mop of a darling) dog. Dogs hear things.

Two things happened very close together, after the house had likely been very still for perhaps an hour or more -- a doordash vehicle arrived at the front of the house, with a person coming to the door, and a vehicle parked at the rear, with another person coming to a different door. Many a dog will perk up for that. Ears up. Some dogs a stance, some a low growl...

Sadly LE knows how K was found. Possibly she was found in such a way that it's virtually impossible she saw or heard or reacted to sounds.... but it also seems possible she heard Murphy and having heard Murphy had occasion to look out a window and saw one of the two persons approaching one of the two doors, told M, and climbed in bed next to her, not altogether worried.

It's like a -- sorry -- slasher film where the victims are unaware, the slasher is gaining on them, and the viewer is screaming at the TV --

Why on earth would K think they had minutes left to live, just because Murphy was on alert, if he was? One person approaching the house was perfectly harmless....

I think it's reasonable to consider that D did not have perfect recall of the sounds, words and order of events because that's asking A LOT of a young person who didn't know recall would be critical, who was roused from sleep, may have been less than fully awake. Given all that, IMO she did an extraordinary job recollecting what she did. I can't fathom the emotional load she was under, the shock and grief, plus the realization she interacted with a murderer -- I don't know how you EVER shake that terror.

I think it's quite telling that the murderer brutally killed four people in a span of about as many minutes and then WALKED out of the house. WALKED. No wonder none of it computed for D. Bizarre. Big leap from bizarre to bethejustdestroyedfourpeople.

I suspect BK approached the house in the same manner. Unhurried. Like he belonged there. Walked up, walked in.

Consider: X received and ate her food and then went to the kitchen, to drop off her debris, wash her hands and BK comes up behind her. Knife to neck. It's okay, I'm here to help you meaning, if you scream, you'll die as he walks her back to her room. Whimper, cry....thud.

Was he walking because that's how he operates, like an automaton? Was he trying not to drip blood?

Why, once in his car, did he switch speeds? Peeled rubber....did an image of D standing there take time to form and he realized he needed to vacate the vicinity fast? In the Wisconsin abduction I've referenced previously, the culprit murdered the victim's parents, kidnapped the young teen and drove away from the crime scene, nice and orderly, even pulling over to allow LE by, en route to the scene, the girl in his trunk. Unbelievably his vehicle never registered as a tip, the only vehicle within minutes of the crime scene within minutes of the 911 call originating from the same. Why did BK speed away? Does he feel buttressed in his car somehow, invisible, invincible? Whatever his intent, he made himself conspicuous.

I've seen some creative defenses -- from mountain lions to sweatered ninjas -- so maybe we'll hear about a psychotic break where he will claim a fugue state, coming to with blood om his hands, unaware. Heck, HE might even see himself as good.Bryan and bad Bryan, switching between helper and avenger, like some misguided avatar from a video universe.... and while some of that might explain why he did it, none of it will save him from conviction.

His digital trail is going to look like runway lights.

JMO

 

[Chloegirl]

Let’s put it this way: if a lawyer can say that “it all depends on the meaning of the word ‘is’” then another lawyer will have almost infinite scope to play around with the meaning of ‘connection.’ We’d have to be very trusting to think that ‘no connection’ meant ‘no connection at all.’

MOO

I was so going to bring this up!

 

[Zinn]

This is a real curiosity to me. I understand KG had a history sort of doing that, but even when you set that aside it's still really interesting. That many calls and that short of time from both phones makes you wonder if they heard something, saw something (that was maybe left for them while they were out?), or I wonder further if they were threatened by someone. I would almost think they came home to discover someone attacked IF there was no DoorDash I could consider that, but it does not fit.

I think this is a very significant issue that has been downplayed but there's something behind it. It could have been as easy as hacking into their accounts and they wanted to know what to do about it, maybe they could tell that someone was outside. It just has to be explained at trial. JMOO

The Grub Truck video suggests they’d been drinking, and photos of the bar they departed just before this suggest the recipient of the later phone calls was at the bar at that time. Does not seem odd to me that KG, being briefly in town and having just seen her ex, might have called him repeatedly after returning home. KG’s family characterized this repetitive calling behavior as typical of KG and said one of her voicemail messages asked her ex to come over, emphasizing they had a dog together. KG’s mother also said they (KG and ex) had been talking on the phone daily despite their recent breakup. KG’s family said her ex missed (did not answer) these calls. Calling from MM’s phone does not seem unusual to me as it might have been an attempt to get KG’s ex to pick up in case he was ignoring KG. JMO.

 

[Zinn]

Does anyone else on this case ponder at the oddness of a door dash to occur at the approximation of the time of the murders? What are the odds of this? It makes someone pause and think someone had to be diligently observing the comings and goings, cellphone activity, etc. I mean you don't wanna go in and murder a bunch of folks if you are gonna risk being seen by some erroneous delivery person. It is almost like the perpetrator knew all cellphone activity or wifi activity.

It bothers me that the suspect vehicle was in the vicinity of JITB (Stadium Way location in Pullman) from 2:44-2:53am, that a DoorDash delivery is reported to have occurred at around 4am, and that a JITB bag addressed to XK was in the kitchen. That bag might not have been related to the DD order at 4am but the possibility bothers me. I am not suggesting a specific scenario, but the potential coincidence bothers me. JMO.

 

[Chloegirl]

It bothers me that the suspect vehicle was in the vicinity of JITB (Stadium Way location in Pullman) from 2:44-2:53am, that a DoorDash delivery is reported to have occurred at around 4am, and that a JITB bag addressed to XK was in the kitchen. That bag might not have been related to the DD order at 4am but the possibility bothers me. I am not suggesting a specific scenario, but the potential coincidence bothers me. JMO.

Like he was hanging out at the restaurant to confirm an order came in before heading over? This is definitely an odd "coincidence". Reconnaissance?, potentially befriending/chats folks up at JITB at 3am, you would think that would have stood out and been investigated. IDK

 

[Boxer]

Does anyone else on this case ponder at the oddness of a door dash to occur at the approximation of the time of the murders? What are the odds of this? It makes someone pause and think someone had to be diligently observing the comings and goings, cellphone activity, etc. I mean you don't wanna go in and murder a bunch of folks if you are gonna risk being seen by some erroneous delivery person. It is almost like the perpetrator knew all cellphone activity or wifi activity.

MOO I think they DD'd often so not too surprising. Apparently nothing after 2am, so DD TB.

 

[Zinn]

Murphy is a (floppy, friendly, lovable mop of a darling) dog. Dogs hear things.

Two things happened very close together, after the house had likely been very still for perhaps an hour or more -- a doordash vehicle arrived at the front of the house, with a person coming to the door, and a vehicle parked at the rear, with another person coming to a different door. Many a dog will perk up for that. Ears up. Some dogs a stance, some a low growl...

Sadly LE knows how K was found. Possibly she was found in such a way that it's virtually impossible she saw or heard or reacted to sounds.... but it also seems possible she heard Murphy and having heard Murphy had occasion to look out a window and saw one of the two persons approaching one of the two doors, told M, and climbed in bed next to her, not altogether worried.

It's like a -- sorry -- slasher film where the victims are unaware, the slasher is gaining on them, and the viewer is screaming at the TV --

Why on earth would K think they had minutes left to live, just because Murphy was on alert, if he was? One person approaching the house was perfectly harmless....

I think it's reasonable to consider that D did not have perfect recall of the sounds, words and order of events because that's asking A LOT of a young person who didn't know recall would be critical, who was roused from sleep, may have been less than fully awake. Given all that, IMO she did an extraordinary job recollecting what she did. I can't fathom the emotional load she was under, the shock and grief, plus the realization she interacted with a murderer -- I don't know how you EVER shake that terror.

I think it's quite telling that the murderer brutally killed four people in a span of about as many minutes and then WALKED out of the house. WALKED. No wonder none of it computed for D. Bizarre. Big leap from bizarre to bethejustdestroyedfourpeople.

I suspect BK approached the house in the same manner. Unhurried. Like he belonged there. Walked up, walked in.

Consider: X received and ate her food and then went to the kitchen, to drop off her debris, wash her hands and BK comes up behind her. Knife to neck. It's okay, I'm here to help you meaning, if you scream, you'll die as he walks her back to her room. Whimper, cry....thud.

Was he walking because that's how he operates, like an automaton? Was he trying not to drip blood?

Why, once in his car, did he switch speeds? Peeled rubber....did an image of D standing there take time to form and he realized he needed to vacate the vicinity fast? In the Wisconsin abduction I've referenced previously, the culprit murdered the victim's parents, kidnapped the young teen and drove away from the crime scene, nice and orderly, even pulling over to allow LE by, en route to the scene, the girl in his trunk. Unbelievably his vehicle never registered as a tip, the only vehicle within minutes of the crime scene within minutes of the 911 call originating from the same. Why did BK speed away? Does he feel buttressed in his car somehow, invisible, invincible? Whatever his intent, he made himself conspicuous.

I've seen some creative defenses -- from mountain lions to sweatered ninjas -- so maybe we'll hear about a psychotic break where he will claim a fugue state, coming to with blood om his hands, unaware. Heck, HE might even see himself as good.Bryan and bad Bryan, switching between helper and avenger, like some misguided avatar from a video universe.... and while some of that might explain why he did it, none of it will save him from conviction.

His digital trail is going to look like runway lights.

JMO

Kaylee’s room was directly over the sliding door. I would think she and Murphy would be likely to hear/feel it operating if someone entered that way. Not inconceivable to me that hearing/seeing someone enter might prompt a person to go to the nearest room with an occupant. I actually did that once myself during an attempted break-in to wake/warn the other person and (tbh) to not be alone in such a panic. It could be that MM and KG had fallen asleep in MMs room together, but I think also possible KG heard/saw something and traveled to MM’s room to alert her. JMO.

Because DM’s room was below MM’s room, I think it’s possible DM heard KG alerting MM, whether she was already in MM’s room or had just traveled there. I think mentioning it might have been XK’s voice was a way to cover bases, just in case, but could also make sense to me that the investigation revealed it could not have been KG due to timeline. Again, JMO.

 

[ArianeEmory]

It bothers me that the suspect vehicle was in the vicinity of JITB (Stadium Way location in Pullman) from 2:44-2:53am, that a DoorDash delivery is reported to have occurred at around 4am, and that a JITB bag addressed to XK was in the kitchen. That bag might not have been related to the DD order at 4am but the possibility bothers me. I am not suggesting a specific scenario, but the potential coincidence bothers me. JMO.

JMO but I’m not seeing it. Unless you’re suggesting that BK somehow *was* the DoorDash driver, or impersonating the DoorDash driver.

 

[Boxer]

Kaylee’s room was directly over the sliding door. I would think she and Murphy would be likely to hear/feel it operating if someone entered that way. Not inconceivable to me that hearing/seeing someone enter might prompt a person to go to the nearest room with an occupant. I actually did that once myself during an attempted break-in to wake/warn the other person and (tbh) to not be alone in such a panic. It could be that MM and KG had fallen asleep in MMs room together, but I think also possible KG heard/saw something and traveled to MM’s room to alert her. JMO.

Because DM’s room was below MM’s room, I think it’s possible DM heard KG alerting MM, whether she was already in MM’s room or had just traveled there. I think mentioning it might have been XK’s voice was a way to cover bases, just in case, but could also make sense to me that the investigation revealed it could not have been KG due to timeline. Again, JMO.

Maybe - alcohol, substances, party house, drama, phone calling. MOO Just isn't a suburban household

 

[Chloegirl]

DBM

 

[Boxer]

JMO but I’m not seeing it. Unless you’re suggesting that BK somehow *was* the DoorDash driver, or impersonating the DoorDash driver.

Agree.
Just a note.
Taco Bell Moscow
open till:
1am.Sun-Th
2am Fri-Sat
Take out shuts 10pm every night.

Taco Bell Pullman
open till:
3:30am Sun-Th
4:00am Fri-Sat

Sounds like the go-to for late night DoorDash.

 

[al66pine]

MOO Semantics.
This is a carefully constructed statement which is trying hard not to be a lie.
The DNA is a connection.

@Boxer Hmmm, thinking a bit more expansively about possibilities.

BK's DNA on knife sheath may be a connection to vic's ---
1. A direct connection, if BK was in house the early a.m. of the deaths, was involved in the crimes, & HE or other perp left sheath in bed
or
2. A less direct connection, like one step removed, for anyone believing BK may have handled sheath in a store, did not buy it, and somehow the sheath ended up in bed at 1122 King (sheath magically transported/teleported itself to that address & was not found a month/week/day before the deaths, but hours after the deaths, and so coincidentally close in a victim's bed, beside her remains ???). Or for anyone firmly believing alternative explanation, other than

Yes, a carefully constructed stmt, more carefully phrased than I initially thought.
imo.

Cc: @Balthazar.

 

[schooling]

Does anyone else on this case ponder at the oddness of a door dash to occur at the approximation of the time of the murders? What are the odds of this? It makes someone pause and think someone had to be diligently observing the comings and goings, cellphone activity, etc. I mean you don't wanna go in and murder a bunch of folks if you are gonna risk being seen by some erroneous delivery person. It is almost like the perpetrator knew all cellphone activity or wifi activity.

I can’t think of a way that this would ever be possible.

Edit. Ok. I think of two ways. 1) they had access to whoever’s email received the receipt. 2) usIng a WiFi analyzer like WireShark you’d be able to monitor traffic…kind of….but you would need their WiFi password. But even that wouldn’t give you indication of a completed order. Though having an iPhone would completely privatize any dns data and outgoing requests and make wireshark useless.

For context: im an executive at a software company. As im not officially verified this is MOO, of course.

 

[Zinn]

JMO but I’m not seeing it. Unless you’re suggesting that BK somehow *was* the DoorDash driver, or impersonating the DoorDash driver.

I’m not suggesting a specific scenario. I just find it an odd potential coincidence that the suspect vehicle was spotted twice within blocks of the only open JITB before departing for Moscow, considering DD might also have traveled from the Pullman JITB to the King Rd house slightly later. I understand genuine coincidences happen all the time, and the bagged marked with XK’s name might not have been the 4:00am delivery, but it does bother me, especially considering the unaccounted for location of the vehicle between the 2:44am and 2:53am. Could have been parked and prepping a mile away from JITB, but it bothers me.

I believe it would already be known if BK was the DD driver, but that doesn’t preclude other possibilities, IMO, such as someone slipping in the backdoor while someone else is occupied at the front door. Or someone knocking just after a delivery, pretending to be DD. Or someone lurking and entering when an occupant opened the door to grab their DD order. We only know from the PCA that the DD driver reported a delivery to the residence at “approximately 4:00am.”

Everything is MOO, of course.