4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

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al66pine said:
"Know" the Victims?

snipped for focus. @jepop
And how is the word "know" defined?
Is "knowing" the same as having a "connection?"

Yes, plenty of different poss. interps re connection. Ditto, for "know."

ETA: I forgot to MOO.
Click to expand...
For sure and ofcourse, it could go on and on! I essentially used the word in the conventional sense to indicate these were "stranger" murders. However, I believe the defendant knew of the victims through a combination of internet and in -real-life stalking. But the victims did not 'know of' the defendant - Moo.

I think the point of using a word like connection- undefined and loosely- in a motion such as this made by defense is to make a general statement without having to bother, at this point, with specifics. Taking a guess, which is quite difficult owing to the obfustcating context in the paragraph (is it deliberately unclear as to context?) - dna at the crime scene could be considered a connection yet the sheath is not mentioned just lack of victim dna in defendant's appartment, parent's residence and vehicle - I think it's possible the D means that BK did not "know" the victims - that is have a connection with the victims in the conventional sense ie acquaintance, friend/on-line facebook friend, colleague, local shop owner, study buddy etc. If by connection they were referring to the one way connection/knowing of that I mentioned above I believe they would have been more specific. So I do not think they are asserting there is no digital data/evidence connecting BK to the victims - that is evidence of BK 'knowing of them ' in a one-way stalking manner. Moo

The statement is essentially saying Imoo that from the D's point of view there is no victim dna in BK-centric places (nice term!) and BK and the victims did not know each other in the conventional sense and therefore there is no 'connection'. I realise that's a massive read between the lines - but as the statement is vague and has a certain drama value - Moo, that's the substance I speculate that can be extrapolated from it. Moo
 
wendy44 said:
As a juror, the idea that there would be no dna from the victims found in the car would give me pause. But it reminds me of the Heather Elvis case. The prosecution contended she was murdered by the Moorers in their truck, yet none of her dna was found in that truck. This did bother me.

At trial, the prosecution did such a good job of laying it out. There was video of their truck traveling to the landing where Heather's car was found. Video traveling from the landing back to their home. Similar to this case, the defense disputed the expert's analysis that it was the Moorer truck in the video, but the time and the remoted location made that very unlikely.

The prosecution showed the receipts from purchases of cleaning supplies within days of the disappearance. Then there was video footage from a home security system showing them cleaning that truck for hours and putting all the materials they used to clean it in a burn pit. That convinced me they were cleaning that car to remove evidence--why else would you burn the stuff you used to clean it.

And--it convinced me that it's possible to clean a car enough to remove any trace of victim dna.
Click to expand...
The car being clean of contact DNA from clothing or hands and feet?
Clothing and gloves taken off standing in a leaf bag, then donning waiting garments, new shoes and entering a prepared car with some plastic over all use areas would do the rtrick.in my opinion.
MOO Somewhere in rural Idaho below Moscow there is a hole with plastic, a knife, Vans, a hat, mask,gloves and black clothes
I would not expect a student of criminology to leave beginner level error DNA.

My personal belief about the sheath is the the killer is physical but does work physically so was unaware that when exerting a lot of strength almost anything not tied in will pop out of any pocket no matter how deep.
And once lost might have not been missed for a minute or which meant it could be anywhere along his route. MOO he knew he cleaned the sheath so he didn't worry about it too much and hoped for the best.

MOO for the last 5-10 years everyone has a sense of biological evidence and also the procedures to prevent it's transfer.
Even lowly bank robbers stop and doff clothes, disposable gloves, masks etc. into leaf bags and get into new transfer free clothes.

MOO big cases solved by bio evidence these days are cold cases from before this awareness was pervasive, which has changed the precautions criminals use to commit premeditated crimes.
 
Boxer said:
The car being clean of contact DNA from clothing or hands and feet?
Clothing and gloves taken off standing in a leaf bag, then donning waiting garments, new shoes and entering a prepared car with some plastic over all use areas would do the rtrick.in my opinion.
MOO Somewhere in rural Idaho below Moscow there is a hole with plastic, a knife, Vans, a hat, mask,gloves and black clothes
I would not expect a student of criminology to leave beginner level error DNA.

My personal belief about the sheath is the the killer is physical but does work physically so was unaware that when exerting a lot of strength almost anything not tied in will pop out of any pocket no matter how deep.
And once lost might have not been missed for a minute or which meant it could be anywhere along his route. MOO he knew he cleaned the sheath so he didn't worry about it too much and hoped for the best.

MOO for the last 5-10 years everyone has a sense of biological evidence and also the procedures to prevent it's transfer.
Even lowly bank robbers stop and doff clothes, disposable gloves, masks etc. into leaf bags and get into new transfer free clothes.

MOO big cases solved by bio evidence these days are cold cases from before this awareness was pervasive, which has changed the precautions criminals use to commit premeditated crimes.
Click to expand...
And it's not like being super prepared to commit 'the perfect crime' is an original idea. Leopold and Loeb is the real famous case from 100 years ago that went on to inspire countless movies, tv shows, and stage plays.

Hell, Columbo even did an episode where they were criminology students trying to murder their professor. And they confidently used everything they learned to try and pull it off.

Also, BK is either brilliant or not brilliant depending on what situation he's put into. Not brilliant when being able to clean a car, but too brilliant to have driven his car to the scene or to have left the sheath. It's all very confusing.
 
I can't find the post to respond to but...

I looked up the assembly for the automatic transmission shifter for the Hyundai Elantra from the relevant year(s). You can't just replace a piece of the knob. The knob is one single piece. This goes for OEM and 3rd party. Meaning if you removed it you'd be left with just a metal rod sticking up. Which is definitely not what we see in the Indiana video.

IMO the Pullman and Indiana video both show the same standard black knob with a slightly glossy black oval that comes stock on every Elantra (the only option is for a leather one if you got leather seats).

Could BK have switched the entire knob? Sure...but he would have done so before the Indiana video as the knob is clearly there. Also, why stop there? He'd probably have to replace the knob trim and everything under it too in case anything dripped into it.

MOO
 
Something I don't think we've discussed...

How did BK intend to access the home?

Did he hack into their wifi somehow, was aware of the DD order and was trying to get in place to slip in behind X? Gain access, drop one victim, ascend to the third floor, to his intended target?

Then because of the costly 3 point turn he missed that point of entry and came in thru the kitchen slider, not having expected it to be unlocked, just his good fortune and their sad detrement?

How could he have known about the DD? College town, watch where it went? Most adults, families with children don't probably order food in the 3am hour? Did he follow the driver from some point in inner Moscow or did he intercept some digital alert? Did he have eyes inside 1122? Pose as a technician, walk in with complete authority, hide cameras? Did he hear X place an order? Or did he screengrab it somehow? Was doordash his planned ticket to access?

From memory, if the bag and drink by the kitchen sink were indeed from that delivery, she/they drank HALF of the beverage... how much of that meal, if any, did she consume? Just half the drink and no food? Half the food? All? Did E have any? Was E ever even aware of that purchase? Did BK enter specifically while X was answering the door down below? How many times did X pass through the kitchen? At what point did BK maneuver through the kitchen/common space, on his way to the top floor? Where was X exactly then? Eerie to imagine him standing in the shadows.

Did he know the slider would be open? Did he cause it to be vulnerable?

That there apparently was no DNA elsewhere on the sheath suggests to me he had cleaned it meticulously and my have left it as a signature of sorts or to implicate a marine. Maybe he had a second sheath, and his weapon was sheathed when he left 1122.

jmo
 
"No Connection?" Again.
girlhasnoname said:
I still believe this is word play by the Defense, super stretching. I take it with a mountain size side of salt. :rolleyes: j
There is a reason the DNA of the victims might not be in his car, office or apartment. He could have been wearing protective covering and discarded it before he reentered his car or apt. He had plenty of time to rid his person of DNA before going back into his office or home in PA. JMO
Click to expand...
@girlhasnoname Thanks for your post.

Wordplay?
Yes.

Taking it w a mountain of salt?
Yes, but doctor says I gotta watch my soldium intake. :-)

And yes, plenty of time to clear the decks, in a manner of speaking.
imo
 
Megnut said:
Something I don't think we've discussed...

How did BK intend to access the home?

Did he hack into their wifi somehow, was aware of the DD order and was trying to get in place to slip in behind X? Gain access, drop one victim, ascend to the third floor, to his intended target?

Then because of the costly 3 point turn he missed that point of entry and came in thru the kitchen slider, not having expected it to be unlocked, just his good fortune and their sad detrement?

How could he have known about the DD? College town, watch where it went? Most adults, families with children don't probably order food in the 3am hour? Did he follow the driver from some point in inner Moscow or did he intercept some digital alert? Did he have eyes inside 1122? Pose as a technician, walk in with complete authority, hide cameras? Did he hear X place an order? Or did he screengrab it somehow? Was doordash his planned ticket to access?

From memory, if the bag and drink by the kitchen sink were indeed from that delivery, she/they drank HALF of the beverage... how much of that meal, if any, did she consume? Just half the drink and no food? Half the food? All? Did E have any? Was E ever even aware of that purchase? Did BK enter specifically while X was answering the door down below? How many times did X pass through the kitchen? At what point did BK maneuver through the kitchen/common space, on his way to the top floor? Where was X exactly then? Eerie to imagine him standing in the shadows.

Did he know the slider would be open? Did he cause it to be vulnerable?

That there apparently was no DNA elsewhere on the sheath suggests to me he had cleaned it meticulously and my have left it as a signature of sorts or to implicate a marine. Maybe he had a second sheath, and his weapon was sheathed when he left 1122.

jmo
Click to expand...
Anything that involves BK being a super hacker is out IMO. He can not intercept a DD signal or delivery. Or hack their WIFI without knowing or guessing their password. And even if he managed to get onto the WIFI that wouldn't tell him when a DoorDash delivery was coming. And if anyone in the house had an iPhone it would be all that more impossible to tell what they were browsing/looking at aside from watching over their shoulder. As the iPhone scrambles, randomizes and encrypts EVERYTHING.

It's a college town where students are ordering food at all times of night. Personally I don't find the nearly simultaneous (and coincedental IMO) arrivals of DD and BK all that unusual. The probabilities of that happening are a lot likelier than a crazy person entering your home with a knife and murdering 4 people.

MOO
 
jepop said:
I'm actually taking it with a grain of salt. There is plenty of leeway in the interpretation of "connection". The defendant didn't know the victims - so what, Imo. We don't know anything about the digital evidence against him. The defense uses a general term - no- one here is accusing them of lying in documents - Again, no victim dna in defendant's appartment or car? So what? The prosecution's case is going to rest on other evidence. Sure, a stranger murder may be harder to prove and I think the prosecution has known that from the get go. Moo EBM grammar
Click to expand...
@jepop Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
From a more serious angle than my earlier response --->

Yes, the right kind, timing, and content of digital evidence can make a huuuge difference in jury's understanding and can overcome the def.'s argument re lack of vics' DNA in BK-centric places.

Looking forward to learning about the state's digi-evd at trial. Thx for the reminder.
imo
 
al66pine said:
Def. Atty: No Connection between BK & Victims

@ Balthazar Thanks for your repsonse. I understand potentially severe consequences for an atty lying in a court-filed doc.

My basic question: What actions fall within the meaning of connection? Or what "counts" as a connection?

If connecting-actions such as ex's (church attendance, podcast side-chats) in my previous post* "count," she's made a verrry broad stmt. Essentially a negative. Can def. atty prove it? How?
Seems the state could potentially disprove w a extremely t-h-i-n ex., like church or podcast. But is a connecting-action like that within the def. of connection? Depends on how "connection" is DEFINED in this context.

My other question:
Is this strictly a PRE-TRIAL issue? If not, does jury get to see/hear the state pop the bubble (assuming the state can come up w an example? Doubting it, but IDK.

___________________________
* 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85
Click to expand...
In this situation the connection would be any kind of real evidence which connects the defendant to the victims. This would include physical, computer, phone, blood, DNA, physical objects, fibers, hairs, murder weapon, proof of purchase or possession of the murder weapon, video, sound, witness identification, etc.

By law, the prosecution must share 100% of all discovery with the defense and vice versa. To not do so, to willfully hide discovery, is grounds for a mistrial. Neither prosecution nor defense is allowed to surprise each other during a trial and evidence discovered late, such as during the trial may not even be allowed into evidence by the judge.

I suggest you watch the June 27, 2023 hearing - it is available online and very interesting.

This article does a good job of covering the hearing and documents related to it:
www.nbcnews.com

Bryan Kohberger's attorney alleges there is 'no connection' between him and Idaho student victims

Attorney Jay Weston Logsdon critiques authorities’ use of investigative genetic genealogy in the new filing, calling it a “bizarrely complex DNA tree experiment."
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
 
schooling said:
I can't find the post to respond to but...

I looked up the assembly for the automatic transmission shifter for the Hyundai Elantra from the relevant year(s). You can't just replace a piece of the knob. The knob is one single piece. This goes for OEM and 3rd party. Meaning if you removed it you'd be left with just a metal rod sticking up. Which is definitely not what we see in the Indiana video.

IMO the Pullman and Indiana video both show the same standard black knob with a slightly glossy black oval that comes stock on every Elantra (the only option is for a leather one if you got leather seats).

Could BK have switched the entire knob? Sure...but he would have done so before the Indiana video as the knob is clearly there. Also, why stop there? He'd probably have to replace the knob trim and everything under it too in case anything dripped into it.

MOO
Click to expand...
MOO There is a plastic cap on the shifter knob I looked up. Not saying his had this kind.

www.ebay.com

Auto Shift Gear Knob Leather for OEM Parts Hyundai 2012-2016 I30 Elantra GT | eBay

Compatible model : - Hyundai 2012-2016 Elantra GT i30. Material : Genuine OEM. - Item must be Sealed and Un-used Original Condition. Quantity and Part Number - 1 ea x 46720A52004X.
www.ebay.com
 
Boxer said:
MOO There is a plastic cap on the shifter knob I looked up. Not saying his had this kind.

www.ebay.com

Auto Shift Gear Knob Leather for OEM Parts Hyundai 2012-2016 I30 Elantra GT | eBay

Compatible model : - Hyundai 2012-2016 Elantra GT i30. Material : Genuine OEM. - Item must be Sealed and Un-used Original Condition. Quantity and Part Number - 1 ea x 46720A52004X.
www.ebay.com
Click to expand...
Yep. That's what I said in my original post. What you shared is the entire knob. It's only one piece. Someone implied earlier that the knob was composed of multiple pieces. And that BK was missing a piece in the Indiana video. Implying that BK removed it after the murders, drove without it and ultimately had it replaced during his service in PA.

That's impossible. Since the knob is a singular piece if it was missing we would be looking at a stub.

This is what is looks like when it's being replaced or missing

So what I was saying in my original post is while it's possible that BK replaced the knob. The Indiana video is not evidence of that.
 
Last edited:
Boxer said:
MOO the plastic piece pops off.
They sell aftermarket cap pieces for style.

CITALL Carbon Fiber Style Interior Gear Shift Lever Knob Cover Trim Fit for Hyundai Elantra 2011-2016 https://a.co/d/hk2OMug
Click to expand...
I'll concede that a 3rd party will sell you anything and eveything. But I stand by that the plastic piece is not missing in the Indiana video.

And BK replacing the plastic piece and keeping the rest of the assembly is kind of silly.

cc6950aad11740c1a3412df2056dbed1_xl.jpg


2016-hyundai-elantra-infotainment-system-carbuzz-482090-1600.jpg
 
Last edited:
Balthazar said:
In this situation the connection would be any kind of real evidence which connects the defendant to the victims. This would include physical, computer, phone, blood, DNA, physical objects, fibers, hairs, murder weapon, proof of purchase or possession of the murder weapon, video, sound, witness identification, etc.

By law, the prosecution must share 100% of all discovery with the defense and vice versa. To not do so, to willfully hide discovery, is grounds for a mistrial. Neither prosecution nor defense is allowed to surprise each other during a trial and evidence discovered late, such as during the trial may not even be allowed into evidence by the judge.

I suggest you watch the June 27, 2023 hearing - it is available online and very interesting.

This article does a good job of covering the hearing and documents related to it:
www.nbcnews.com

Bryan Kohberger's attorney alleges there is 'no connection' between him and Idaho student victims

Attorney Jay Weston Logsdon critiques authorities’ use of investigative genetic genealogy in the new filing, calling it a “bizarrely complex DNA tree experiment."
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
Click to expand...
His car pinpointed being around the 1122 property is a connection. It is in the discovery.
 
Boxer said:
MOO I cannot make out any detail on the gear shift in the Indiana body cam video. If someone found a clear frame it would be interesting.
Click to expand...
There are only a few frames available as the officers arms quickly get in the way.

But I can see the shine off of the shiny black oval plastic piece pretty clearly. In the same place as the shiny black oval is in every Hyundai Elantra from 2011-2018.

Can we assume that those are the same seats and steering wheel and rugs? I think BK did it and will be on death row pretty soon. But I'm going to choose to let common sense prevail here.

MOO of course.
 
Boxer said:
MOO the plastic piece pops off.
They sell aftermarket cap pieces for style.

CITALL Carbon Fiber Style Interior Gear Shift Lever Knob Cover Trim Fit for Hyundai Elantra 2011-2016 https://a.co/d/hk2OMug
Click to expand...
It doesn't come off...what you're looking at is a decorative cover that tapes on the existing shift knob to dress it up. Look at the 7th pic, you can clearly see its a thin cover and it even shows the double sided tape that come with it to stick it over the factory shift knob.
 
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