4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

[schooling]

If I was to jump on the speculative DD bandwagon. How else would he know if it wasn't DoorDash telling him?

Listening device? That's much more likely. But still squarely inside the realm of conspiracy theory. JMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

Does anyone remember which of the affidavits contained the words - forensically extracted data from BF and DMs phones or devices or something? Do people think those are text messages extracted with metadata (date, time, etc) extracted at the system level vs just plain ol screenshots of said messages (hence the use of forensic) ......or is there something else it could be?

From PCA

....reviews of forensic downloads of records from BF and DM phone.........

Mobile Phone Forensics

This definition explains the meaning of Mobile Phone Forensics and why it matters.

www.techopedia.com

What Does Mobile Phone Forensics Mean?​

Mobile phone forensics is a type of electronic data gathering for legal evidence purposes. Extraction of deleted mobile phone files used as criminal evidence is the primary work of mobile phone forensics investigators.

Types of mobile phone forensics include taped conversations, digital phone pictures, mobile phone texts or emails, phone number lists and sometimes even mobile phone digital video recordings. More often than not, mobile phone forensics are applied to digital data retrieval of deleted communications.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

It's a message forum. You share an idea then the idea might get push back. It's nothing personal or against you. So if I'm one of those folks, my apologies.

The only time I jump on this theory is when people try to attribute magical hacking abilities to BK and DoorDash. When they have no understanding of how zero day exploits work. Who the biggest players in it are. How much they go for on the blackmarket. How security research works. Or how DoorDash's technology would not even be capable to provide a backdoor to do what some people imply BK did. Or how a breach like this would be treated inside of a software company. And how it would be impossible to hide, particularly since DD is a publicly traded company with a responsibility to shareholders.. even with the gag order in place that all still stands true.

It's just a fundamental misunderstanding of how technology works, how software companies work, how software is built, the checks and balances in place, the tools available to internal folks etc. And no matter how many times I share...people totally ignore it and inevitably attribute magical hacking abilities to BK.

Is there something nefarious with the DD timing? Maybe. But IMO it has nothing to do with hacking of any sort.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Thanks for saying that, @schooling. You rock and it's all good, IMO.

I think sometimes it feels personal if what I post is responded to in a way that I wasn't expecting, but I can't speak for others here. JMO.

And yes, I agree BK if he is the killer is not some evil genius with mad skills in things technological, but he could have "played one on TV" if you give his internship application to Pullman LE any credence, on how to help them with cloud-based public notification something or the other. JMO.

 

[schooling]

From PCA

....reviews of forensic downloads of records from BF and DM phone.........

Mobile Phone Forensics

This definition explains the meaning of Mobile Phone Forensics and why it matters.

www.techopedia.com

What Does Mobile Phone Forensics Mean?​

Mobile phone forensics is a type of electronic data gathering for legal evidence purposes. Extraction of deleted mobile phone files used as criminal evidence is the primary work of mobile phone forensics investigators.

Types of mobile phone forensics include taped conversations, digital phone pictures, mobile phone texts or emails, phone number lists and sometimes even mobile phone digital video recordings. More often than not, mobile phone forensics are applied to digital data retrieval of deleted communications.

So maybe it's like I said above. That they are referring to text message exchanges between DM and BF that were 'extracted' forensically from the phone intact. Instead of utilizing a screenshot. Apple's Messages are not accessible by cellular providers. It's encrypted on both ends. So they couldn't request an official transcript from anyone. This would be their only option.

 

[schooling]

Thanks for saying that, @schooling. You rock and it's all good, IMO.

I think sometimes it feels personal if what I post is responded to in a way that I wasn't expecting, but I can't speak for others here. JMO.

And yes, I agree BK if he is the killer is not some evil genius with mad skills in things technological, but he could have "played one on TV" if you give his internship application to Pullman LE any credence, on how to help them with cloud-based public notification something or the other. JMO.

If you believe the reporting on the classmate...

BK is more of a social engineering hacker (this is an actual thing). Most of the biggest hacks in the world have been a result of social engineering. Which is essentially convincing someone else to invite you into the place you're trying to get gain access to. Essentially giving you the keys (literal keys, or a password, or opening the door, or a piece of information you need, or changing a 2fa SMS number or or or etc etc) under false pretenses. The most common thing you see is to send a fake phishing email to get a password or make a phone call to customer service pretending to be someone else. The latter is how Uber was hacked. It's also how most celebrity cell phones are hacked (hot sim swapping via tricked customer support agents).

BK did something similar (if you believe the reporting). He convinced his classmate to invite him into her home. Convinced her to give up her WIFI. Set up a camera. I could see him having her sign up for an account (to allow for outside internet access to the camera) with her own digital credentials and username and password. Probably even looked the other way. Which gave her a false sense of security and the appearance that his intentions were pure and that he had no access once he left.

But what he didn't tell her is that since he could get on her WIFI he could see the cameras as a local user and didn't need an official account (to Arlo or ecobee or whatever it was). So all he had to do was sit outside connected and he could see everything that happened inside.

IMO there's even evidence int he warrants that BK tried something like this with Snapchat. As the warrant explicitly asks for customer support chats and/or complaints (can't remember exactly) that involve BK and the victims.

Any theories that propose social engineering hacking I'm all for. Maybe he had a password to one of their accounts or he had access to the house at some point or he pretended to be X or Y or Z...and then used that to exploit readily available technology...those theories are a lot more plausible to me.

 

[Cool Cats]

May 22, 2023, so that means that 220 (183+37) days later would be December 28, 2023.

Trial is still scheduled for October 2nd - the Stay was granted and does not ADD any time, it simply stops counting the days.

Judge said this motion does not affect any other aspect of the case or the scheduled start date of the trial. Kohberger's trial is still set to begin on Oct. 2, but could be moved if the defense decides those extra 37 days are necessary to prepare for trial.

The court also acknowledged Kohberger's right to a speedy trial and ordered a stay in the running of the speedy trial clock until Aug. 1. This allows him 37 extra days to review the material without giving up his right to a speedy trial.

Judge in Bryan Kohberger case issues 37-day stay on the speedy trial clock

An indefinite stay of proceedings was ultimately denied, but a Latah County judge did grant a 37-day stay to allow Kohberger to review the grand jury material.

www.king5.com

 

[schooling]

Trial is still scheduled for October 2nd - the Stay was granted and does not ADD any time, it simply stops counting the days.

Judge said this motion does not affect any other aspect of the case or the scheduled start date of the trial. Kohberger's trial is still set to begin on Oct. 2, but could be moved if the defense decides those extra 37 days are necessary to prepare for trial.

The court also acknowledged Kohberger's right to a speedy trial and ordered a stay in the running of the speedy trial clock until Aug. 1. This allows him 37 extra days to review the material without giving up his right to a speedy trial.

Judge in Bryan Kohberger case issues 37-day stay on the speedy trial clock

An indefinite stay of proceedings was ultimately denied, but a Latah County judge did grant a 37-day stay to allow Kohberger to review the grand jury material.

www.king5.com

It's seems like they are burying the lede with the alibi deadline. The tweet someone shared above is the only highlighted reference I've seen to it so far.

 

[Boxer]

Trial is still scheduled for October 2nd - the Stay was granted and does not ADD any time, it simply stops counting the days.

Judge said this motion does not affect any other aspect of the case or the scheduled start date of the trial. Kohberger's trial is still set to begin on Oct. 2, but could be moved if the defense decides those extra 37 days are necessary to prepare for trial.

The court also acknowledged Kohberger's right to a speedy trial and ordered a stay in the running of the speedy trial clock until Aug. 1. This allows him 37 extra days to review the material without giving up his right to a speedy trial.

Judge in Bryan Kohberger case issues 37-day stay on the speedy trial clock

An indefinite stay of proceedings was ultimately denied, but a Latah County judge did grant a 37-day stay to allow Kohberger to review the grand jury material.

www.king5.com

Thanks.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

If you believe the reporting on the classmate...

BK is more of a social engineering hacker (this is an actual thing). Most of the biggest hacks in the world have been a result of social engineering. Which is essentially convincing someone else to invite you into the place you're trying to get gain access to. Essentially giving you the keys (literal keys, or a password, or opening the door, or a piece of information you need, or changing a 2fa SMS number or or or etc etc) under false pretenses. The most common thing you see is to send a fake phishing email to get a password or make a phone call to customer service pretending to be someone else. The latter is how Uber was hacked. It's also how most celebrity cell phones are hacked (hot sim swapping via tricked customer support agents).

BK did something similar (if you believe the reporting). He convinced his classmate to invite him into her home. Convinced her to give up her WIFI. Set up a camera. I could see him having her sign up for an account (to allow for outside internet access to the camera) with her own digital credentials and username and password. Probably even looked the other way. Which gave her a false sense of security and the appearance that his intentions were pure and that he had no access once he left.

But what he didn't tell her is that since he could get on her WIFI he could see the cameras as a local user and didn't need an official account (to Arlo or ecobee or whatever it was). So all he had to do was sit outside connected and he could see everything that happened inside.

IMO there's even evidence int he warrants that BK tried something like this with Snapchat. As the warrant explicitly asks for customer support chats and/or complaints (can't remember exactly) that involve BK and the victims.

Any theories that propose social engineering hacking I'm all for. Maybe he had a password to one of their accounts or he had access to the house at some point or he pretended to be X or Y or Z...and then used that to exploit readily available technology...those theories are a lot more plausible to me.

Yes, good points, if I believe stuff. I may have posted before in response to your tech knowledgeable posts (IMO), that I work in a corporate environment, and I have to watch and sign off on having watched "social engineering" instructional videos on a regular basis. They are hosted and scripted by a former hacker that knows what of he speaks of. Just sayin' I hear you.

Bringing it back on topic, I believe BK had some pretty good understanding of the basics of internet and SM usage, and perhaps something more (like hacking), and he also had entirely too much time on his hands, so could have delved into all kinds of things on the web before their murders, like viewing the victims SM accounts and messaging them. JMO.

 

[Balthazar]

There is one BRUTAL and PUBLIC connection, which defies her statement of "no connection". His DNA on the sheath. THAT'S A CONNECTION. Verified.

But it's not because the DNA on the sheath could have been deposited on the sheath at any time before the murders not just on the day of the murders. BK could have sold or traded the knife and sheath or it may not have ever belonged to him - he might have held the sheath at some point in time such as in a store or at a friend's house. There are literally a million ways BK's DNA could have come to be on the sheath that don't involve him being the murderer. And that is a huge problem for the prosecution.

I hope that the prosecution has something solid but they have not revealed it to the defense thus far and the trial is quite soon so I'm very concerned.

Bryan Kohberger Says DNA From 3 Men, Mystery Glove at Murder Scene

Kohberger and his lawyer filed this objection because they are seeking a detailed breakdown of how genetic genealogy was utilized to help the FBI initially identify Kohberger as a person of interest in the case.

www.insideedition.com

I think the WIFI waa mention as being "touched" by BK. MOO that just means recognition and potential for connection should the wifi be responded to and password be used.

Mentioned by SG not LE, but apparently NOT in any of the discovery the defense was given. Or possibly something explainable (and provable) by the defense in a way that LE and the prosecution has not considered.

Does anyone remember which of the affidavits contained the words - forensically extracted data from BF and DMs phones or devices or something? Do people think those are text messages extracted with metadata (date, time, etc) extracted at the system level vs just plain ol screenshots of said messages (hence the use of forensic) ......or is there something else it could be?

There is much more to forensically extracting data than just the devices. LE would have extracted at the carrier level. Legally carriers are required to keep all original messages for two years and LE subpeona's them to see what was actually sent on what date and what time compared to what appears on the devices. By doing this, LE can also see if an effort was made to change the message, send date or time or all 3 in some way by the device user. If there is a company between the carrier and device, LE would subpoena them as well because, they too, are required to keep all messages for 2 years. This gives LE the ability to see the full range of custody of the message and anything that may have happened to the message between the time it was originally sent and when LE took it into evidence. LE will typically subpoena messages for a specific date and time range, so even messages that were deleted on the device are visible to LE.

If it is an Apple Device, while Apple will not unlock the device, LE can subpoena messages from iCloud which also stores the encryption key which LE can avail itself of.

 

[schooling]

But it's not because the DNA on the sheath could have been deposited on the sheath at any time before the murders not just on the day of the murders. BK could have sold or traded the knife and sheath or it may not have ever belonged to him - he might have held the sheath at some point in time such as in a store or at a friend's house. There are literally a million ways BK's DNA could have come to be on the sheath that don't involve him being the murderer. And that is a huge problem for the prosecution.

I hope that the prosecution has something solid but they have not revealed it to the defense thus far and the trial is quite soon so I'm very concerned.

Bryan Kohberger Says DNA From 3 Men, Mystery Glove at Murder Scene

Kohberger and his lawyer filed this objection because they are seeking a detailed breakdown of how genetic genealogy was utilized to help the FBI initially identify Kohberger as a person of interest in the case.

www.insideedition.com

Mentioned by SG not LE, but apparently NOT in any of the discovery the defense was given. Or possibly something explainable (and provable) by the defense in a way that LE and the prosecution has not considered.

There is much more to forensically extracting data than just the devices. LE would have extracted at the carrier level. Legally carriers are required to keep all original messages for two years and LE subpeona's them to see what was actually sent on what date and what time compared to what appears on the devices. By doing this, LE can also see if an effort was made to change the message, send date or time or all 3 in some way by the device user. If there is a company between the carrier and device, LE would subpoena them as well because, they too, are required to keep all messages for 2 years. This gives LE the ability to see the full range of custody of the message and anything that may have happened to the message between the time it was originally sent and when LE took it into evidence. LE will typically subpoena messages for a specific date and time range, so even messages that were deleted on the device are visible to LE.

If it is an Apple Device, while Apple will not unlock the device, LE can subpoena messages from iCloud which also stores the encryption key which LE can avail itself of.

You’re not saying anything really that I didn’t say. So not sure where the disagreement is. And we’ve already seen LE extract at the carrier level with the BKs phone records. So that an obvious one.

But I don’t think they are going to find much on messaging at the carrier level. How many people under 50 are still using SMS as their main way to message? I don’t think I know one…so carrier messaging data is like going to be largely irrelevant.

I’m also not sure what you mean by middle man. Twilio? 3rd party messaging services that don’t utilize SMS have 0 obligation to provide anything to the carriers or ISP. In fact, Apple and Meta went end to end encryption with their messaging apps to partially stop carriers from invading users privacy.

iMessage, WhatsApp and social media companies handle the majority of the worlds messages now. And those companies get to set their own data retention policies with few exceptions (GDRP, etc). So the 2 year rule is….not sure where that came from.

So what I said in the message you responded to is that LE would extract the messages directly from the device with the metadata (header, time, date) fully intact. With the implication being they got it from the source where it can’t be faked. Assuming they had access to said phone. As iMessages do not exist at the carrier. And it’s end to end encrypted. And unless you explicitly enabled (it’s off by default) iMessage iCloud syncing between your devices they won’t be stored there.

Also, my question about what other forensics wasn’t because I was clueless. It was me asking others to brainstorm what other digital forensics in the context of the lines in the PCA. Besides them texting each other while the crimes were being committed I can’t think of anything else and have run out of ideas that are specific to their phones and the night of. That was my point.


Worth mentioning but inconsequential: Apple’s iCloud now has full end to end local encryption. Unless they have an 0 day exploit kicking around that Apple hasn’t found yet LE doesn’t get access to that either. That feature was released after the crimes were committed though

 

[Balthazar]

You’re not saying anything really that I didn’t say. So not sure where the disagreement is. And we’ve already seen LE extract at the carrier level with the BKs phone records. So that an obvious one.

The point of my post was to enhance what you wrote, not disagree.

 

[jepop]

Did you actually read my response to you that I agree that the interviewer did not insert his opinion after re-reading the PCA? I also explained that combining facts from the interview with the writer's comments about X's phone is what confused me. There was no speculation, simply misunderstanding on my part due to an awkwardly worded paragraph in the PCA.

I re-read you last reply and I confused what you were saying there with the content of your initial post. Sorry for that confusion.

Having said that, we can agree to disagree re what you assert in your last post. I don't think we have any real knowledge of the timing of LE collecting statements from the the surviving roommates other than what I consider to be a rational assumption that their versions of events/recollections would have been wanted by LE as soon as possible after the night of the crime. So for clarity I disagree that it's clear that " LE had certainty of their timeline before questioning DM.". I think the timeline would have been developed over time as more info came to light - for e.g. from the door dash driver, forensic analysis (as you mention of phones); ongoing forensic analysis of the crime scene. On the other hand I think there would have been a priority to get statements from the roomates who were present in the house ASAP. Sure there may have been some follow up questions as the the investigation developed. Moo

EBM for clarity, spelling.

 

[Idaho transplant]

85 threads later, what do you feel are the top 3-5 ideas/discoveries/etc. by the people who have posted here as to helping bring clarity to these murders? In other words, who are the most talented sleuthers and how have their contributions helped the group as a whole?

 

[Cool Cats]

85 threads later, what do you feel are the top 3-5 ideas/discoveries/etc. by the people who have posted here as to helping bring clarity to these murders? In other words, who are the most talented sleuthers and how have their contributions helped the group as a whole?

It takes a village

 

[jepop]

Does anyone remember which of the affidavits contained the words - forensically extracted data from BF and DMs phones or devices or something? Do people think those are text messages extracted with metadata (date, time, etc) extracted at the system level vs just plain ol screenshots of said messages (hence the use of forensic) ......or is there something else it could be?

I think it's from the PCA - just a short statement to support establishment of timeline. Moo Catching up so apologies if already answered down thread.

 

[I'm Nobody]

If you believe the reporting on the classmate...

BK is more of a social engineering hacker (this is an actual thing). Most of the biggest hacks in the world have been a result of social engineering. Which is essentially convincing someone else to invite you into the place you're trying to get gain access to. Essentially giving you the keys (literal keys, or a password, or opening the door, or a piece of information you need, or changing a 2fa SMS number or or or etc etc) under false pretenses. The most common thing you see is to send a fake phishing email to get a password or make a phone call to customer service pretending to be someone else. The latter is how Uber was hacked. It's also how most celebrity cell phones are hacked (hot sim swapping via tricked customer support agents).

BK did something similar (if you believe the reporting). He convinced his classmate to invite him into her home. Convinced her to give up her WIFI. Set up a camera. I could see him having her sign up for an account (to allow for outside internet access to the camera) with her own digital credentials and username and password. Probably even looked the other way. Which gave her a false sense of security and the appearance that his intentions were pure and that he had no access once he left.

But what he didn't tell her is that since he could get on her WIFI he could see the cameras as a local user and didn't need an official account (to Arlo or ecobee or whatever it was). So all he had to do was sit outside connected and he could see everything that happened inside.

IMO there's even evidence int he warrants that BK tried something like this with Snapchat. As the warrant explicitly asks for customer support chats and/or complaints (can't remember exactly) that involve BK and the victims.

Any theories that propose social engineering hacking I'm all for. Maybe he had a password to one of their accounts or he had access to the house at some point or he pretended to be X or Y or Z...and then used that to exploit readily available technology...those theories are a lot more plausible to me.

Thanks @schooling I am clueless about this tech stuff. A DailyMail photo of the monitor(s) at 1122, 18 days after the murders, shows how clearly visible one monitor was from the window. Cops left it on after they took the hard drives. Not really sure which window this is. The monitor appears to be right next to the window. Assuming that computer was in the same/similar spot in the common area where the good vibes sign was because of other pics in this article. Could BK have gotten passwords/enough info from his stalking to hack in? He could have watched to see what websites roommates visited. Frightening now to think BK could have been watching so much of their lives.

I have been to homes where there is a sign with WIFI password next to the computer so anyone can use it. A party house might have had something similar posted if this was in the common area.
My passwords are all little stars so I don't even know what they are.
JMO

DailyMail.com pictures show the inside of the 1122 house in Moscow, Idaho, looking in from the outside. Sorry old article from December 2022. Good pictures.

 

[Cool Cats]

But it's not because the DNA on the sheath could have been deposited on the sheath at any time before the murders not just on the day of the murders. BK could have sold or traded the knife and sheath or it may not have ever belonged to him - he might have held the sheath at some point in time such as in a store or at a friend's house. There are literally a million ways BK's DNA could have come to be on the sheath that don't involve him being the murderer. And that is a huge problem for the prosecution.

I hope that the prosecution has something solid but they have not revealed it to the defense thus far and the trial is quite soon so I'm very concerned.

Defense says there is no DNA connection between BK and the victims, they are not going to say it is BK's DNA on the sheath. The defense is trying to distance BK from the DNA not confirm that the prosecution got it right and pin pointed their client. A terrible defense that most likely would convince the jury that it is reasonable to assume that BK left the sheath while stabbing the victims.

For this to work as a defense the defense would have to explain how BK's DNA ended up on the sheath and they can't do that because then they are confirming to the jury that:

"Yes, the prosecution is correct, this is Mr Kohberger's DNA on the sheath, he opened the sheath to get to the knife when he was in Walmart on such and such date, here is proof....

No wait, we have no proof but rest assured we concur with the prosecution's DNA results, that yes this is our client's DNA on a knife sheath found under a victim who was stabbed with a knife."

2 Cents

 

[jepop]

Thanks @schooling I am clueless about this tech stuff. A DailyMail photo of the monitor(s) at 1122, 18 days after the murders, shows how clearly visible one monitor was from the window. Cops left it on after they took the hard drives. Not really sure which window this is. The monitor appears to be right next to the window. Assuming that computer was in the same/similar spot in the common area where the good vibes sign was because of other pics in this article. Could BK have gotten passwords/enough info from his stalking to hack in? He could have watched to see what websites roommates visited. Frightening now to think BK could have been watching so much of their lives.

I have been to homes where there is a sign with WIFI password next to the computer so anyone can use it. A party house might have had something similar posted if this was in the common area.
My passwords are all little stars so I don't even know what they are.
JMO

DailyMail.com pictures show the inside of the 1122 house in Moscow, Idaho, looking in from the outside. Sorry old article from December 2022. Good pictures.

RBBM: From memory that monitor was visible from the top (third) floor window on the west side - so I think KG's room? I'm sure there's a photo somewhere in press album here that will confirm that with a whole-of-house perspective. (as an aside, I think the three windows on third floor east to west were floor three bathroom, hallway and KG's master bedroom.) Moo

I think the Good Vibes sign was on second (middle floor) in the living area - close to the little hallway on that floor that leads to the stairs up to floor three (south), the kitchen entrance (west) and DM's room( east). The Daily M article indicates the Good Vibes sign was in the living room and I'm almost %100 certain that I've seen photos in the press album thread here to confirm this. Moo Can re-post those when I get a chance
EBM spelling x2

 

[Cool Cats]

RBBM: From memory that monitor was visible from the top (third) floor window on the west side - so I think KG's room? I'm sure there's a photo somewhere in press album here that will confirm that with a whole-of-house persepctive. (as an aside, I think the three windows on third floor east to west were floor three bathroom, hallway and KG's master bedroom.) Moo

I think the Good Vibes sign was on second (middle floor) in the living area - close to the little hallway on that floor that leads to the stairs up to floor three (south), the kitchen entrance (west) and DM's room( east). The Daily M article indicates the Good Vibes sign was in the living room and I'm almost %100 certain that I've seen photos on in the press album thread here to confirm this. Moo Can re-post those when I get a chance
EBM spelling

Thanks for mentioning this - hadn't seen it before:

Press photo album (compilation courtesy of WS member cujenn81)