4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #87

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't think you are correct about what the FBI is entitled to do - but you certainly are entitled to view it that way. No way to prove that the FBI doesn't sometimes use those databases. I've mostly seen the FBI say, "Nope, we got what we got, and they aren't in our databases).

Do you have any news articles or other information saying that the FBI is regularly breaking the rules of known contracts? Or that any genetic genealogy companies have allowed it? Does the FBI hack in or do they just show up? I simply can't envision how it could happen and I do not believe the FBI would risk cases (except maybe very very cold ones) with that kind of tactic.

So, I think you need to back your statement up with facts - this is not what FBI (or any LE) does, IMO. That's certainly not what they are taught to do. And it would be illegal, IMO.

Which databases are unregulated? Can you give an example? What actual cans of worms have there been?

TIA. I agree that the window (if it was ever open) is closing for unfettered access to large online databases (I am very familiar with Ancestry and 23andme and would like to think I've read about ALL of the cases in which they allowed LE to use their databases without a warrant - for 23, it's zero cases (and only 1 warrant last time I checked) and Ancestry also requires a warrant - but has responded to half a dozen of those warrants.

Requiring a warrant is a form of regulation. 23andme and its Board of Directors have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars battling LE on this issue and have won (and kept their records to themselves) every time (always requiring a warrant, no cooperation whatsoever, otherwise).

That would not keep an end user from sharing their own results with whomever they wished, though. If I thought a relative of mine was a murderer, I could upload my DNA to Othram (which I would do) and then contact LE and tell them to "go for it." Othram tells all end users that they will use the data for forensic purposes. However, even if you combined 23, Ancestry and Othram, it would come no where close to most people - because there are many repeated data sets (90% or more of Othram or Parabon's customers had their DNA run via saliva samples with Ancestry or 23).

IMO.
Exactly. There are laws, and this all comes out in court. There was one case I can recall when law enforcement did use (I think) 23 and me. But they changed their policies.

You get a DNA test from Ancestry or another company, and you’re able to download it, then upload it to a site like GED Match. Opt in, and they can use it. I have, because if someone in my family rapes or murders someone, they deserve to go down.
 
I made a similar reference on another site this morning. My brain is currently too mushy to follow the minutiae of the legal documents, but my BS meter is pretty reliable.

They’ve managed to get a lot of social media users “concerned”, though, so the stage-magic part has been effective to some degree.
People are freaking out for no reason. I don’t think this trial happens until late 2024. When it does, it will be a slam dunk.
 
I wonder if BK is demanding a speedy trial, and his defense team hasn't been able to talk him out of it as of yet, and the only way they can meet that request theoretically is to file a motion to stay which gives the defense more time to prepare the case before going to trial.

On the other hand, if it is the defense team and not BK that is insisting on a speedy trial, I wonder why they are doing this. Maybe early on it was strategic, but now not so much and in September BK will waive his right to a speedy trial.

If it is the defense team's decision, what could be motivating their insistence on a speedy trial? If it is BK"s decision, what could be motivating his insistence on a speedy trial?

And will the motivations/strategies have changed now, months later as the court case progresses.
I really do think it was BK who initially demanded his right to a speedy trial so the Defense jumped on board with both feet and strategically crafted many prophetic Motions to see exactly what the State has. They didn't get to see it in a PH so they pushed hard for everything they thought they might have gotten by crossing the State's witnesses in a PH.

I also believe AT thought she would keep getting her Motion's to Stay, in order to firm up the alibi that wasn't. She's good, she got a lot. But now the Judge has called the Defense's hand, and basically said put up or shut up. Which I think was the right call finally. They can't have it both ways: speedy, stay, speedy, stay.

Come Sept 8th, I believe BK will waive his right to a speedy trial and that will afford the Defense to craft a proper strategy for a DP case. If he doesn't, then I think he's a man who wants to play the game.

JMO
 
I made a similar reference on another site this morning. My brain is currently too mushy to follow the minutiae of the legal documents, but my BS meter is pretty reliable.

They’ve managed to get a lot of social media users “concerned”, though, so the stage-magic part has been effective to some degree.
Maybe a lot of SM users who are unfamiliar with the legal processes, DNA, etc. in general. I believe all these Defense Motions were a direct strategy to do just that even though the D fought hard for the gag order and not 'trying the case in the media' too.

Fortunately there will be a jury of 12 of BK's peers who will be presented with both sides of the case and the facts as they claim them to be. They will then make a unanimous decision on his guilt or innocence based upon those facts. I have faith a jury will be able to find BK guilty just on what we know now, let alone what is going to come out during the trial.

ALL MOO
 
I wonder if BK is demanding a speedy trial, and his defense team hasn't been able to talk him out of it as of yet, and the only way they can meet that request theoretically is to file a motion to stay which gives the defense more time to prepare the case before going to trial.

On the other hand, if it is the defense team and not BK that is insisting on a speedy trial, I wonder why they are doing this. Maybe early on it was strategic, but now not so much and in September BK will waive his right to a speedy trial.

If it is the defense team's decision, what could be motivating their insistence on a speedy trial? If it is BK"s decision, what could be motivating his insistence on a speedy trial?

And will the motivations/strategies have changed now, months later as the court case progresses.
Thank you @Sundog for always being such an insightful poster and making me truly evaluate my position constantly. I can be a stubborn mule when I feel I've made my mind up, yet you somehow manage to always rethink things. That's a good thing. :)
 
I really do think it was BK who initially demanded his right to a speedy trial so the Defense jumped on board with both feet and strategically crafted many prophetic Motions to see exactly what the State has. They didn't get to see it in a PH so they pushed hard for everything they thought they might have gotten by crossing the State's witnesses in a PH.

I also believe AT thought she would keep getting her Motion's to Stay, in order to firm up the alibi that wasn't. She's good, she got a lot. But now the Judge has called the Defense's hand, and basically said put up or shut up. Which I think was the right call finally. They can't have it both ways: speedy, stay, speedy, stay.

Come Sept 8th, I believe BK will waive his right to a speedy trial and that will afford the Defense to craft a proper strategy for a DP case. If he doesn't, then I think he's a man who wants to play the game.

JMO
And the State played it's role there in calling the Defense's hand. The last motion on the list on Friday was P's motion for scheduling order. Judge John Judge had obviously considered it pre-hearing, concurred and made his decision. Moo
 
It's kind of funny to me, because every case I've followed through trial has been similar. A lot of people seem to think: a) the D is either incompetent or underhanded, b) that anyone who tries to guess the D's strategies is somehow in support of the defendant, and c) the judge is too patient with the D team. Admittedly, I haven't followed a whole lot of cases through trail, so it's just my personal observation and nothing more. I chalk it up to human nature and wanting to see justice for these horrible crimes, but again, that's JMO.

I know I bring up the Mollie Tibbetts trial a lot in comparison to this one, but something really stuck with me from that trial. The D laid out a very unconvincing, even silly, story before the court, so of course, all the above observations came into play. But what stuck with me was when the D was speaking with the media after court one day. They said that this was the story their client had told them consistently. I mean, IMO, they almost sounded defeated when they said that, like they were trying to be convincing and supportive of their client, but they also couldn't fully hide the fact that they KNEW what that story sounded like, even though they were the ones having to tell it. It really opened my eyes to what the D sometimes has to do in order to defend their client, especially when the client isn't forthright. JMO.
 
c) the judge is too patient with the D team.

I’ve only followed a few trials on a day to day basis, but yeah this is a common remark. But on the other hand, there are always other commenters reminding people that it’s better that a judge isn’t seen to show overt bias against the defendant or their lawyers.

I’ve watched a few trials in the last year (Letecia Stauch and Paul Flores) where the respective judges showed the patience of saints with the antics of the defendant or the defense attorneys or both. (And when I say “antics”, for example, Letecia Stauch was doing all sorts of ridiculous things like flipping off witnesses when the judge couldn’t see her.) In both cases I think it was fantastic that the judges stayed calm and professional—it’s setting a good example for the jurors, IMO. They’re not hockey refs.

Both defendants were convicted.
 
People are freaking out for no reason. I don’t think this trial happens until late 2024. When it does, it will be a slam dunk.

I like hearing this. I was dismayed on Friday at the option of get the jury in here. I would like him to waive his rights to a speedy trial so that it's thorough, well researched, and effective for all parties. JMOO
 
Last edited:
I’ve only followed a few trials on a day to day basis, but yeah this is a common remark. But on the other hand, there are always other commenters reminding people that it’s better that a judge isn’t seen to show overt bias against the defendant or their lawyers.

I’ve watched a few trials in the last year (Letecia Stauch and Paul Flores) where the respective judges showed the patience of saints with the antics of the defendant or the defense attorneys or both. (And when I say “antics”, for example, Letecia Stauch was doing all sorts of ridiculous things like flipping off witnesses when the judge couldn’t see her.) In both cases I think it was fantastic that the judges stayed calm and professional—it’s setting a good example for the jurors, IMO. They’re not hockey refs.

Both defendants were convicted.
Agreed. And I've also seen a solid, impartial, and patient judge fire it up during the sentencing hearing, when it's his or her turn to sentence within legal bounds, but with a chance to express some personal feedback to the defendant, as well.
 
Agreed. And I've also seen a solid, impartial, and patient judge fire it up during the sentencing hearing, when it's his or her turn to sentence within legal bounds, but with a chance to express some personal feedback to the defendant, as well.
Alex Murdaugh? Not wanting to go way off topic - just to say that I recall Judge Newman (?) giving some profound (Imo) feedback to him during sentencing. He gave it calmly so not so fired up as such but his complete sincereity of emotion was apparent. Moo
 
Agreed. And I've also seen a solid, impartial, and patient judge fire it up during the sentencing hearing, when it's his or her turn to sentence within legal bounds, but with a chance to express some personal feedback to the defendant, as well.

Good point. Larry Nassar’s judge comes immediately to mind.
 
It's kind of funny to me, because every case I've followed through trial has been similar. A lot of people seem to think: a) the D is either incompetent or underhanded, b) that anyone who tries to guess the D's strategies is somehow in support of the defendant, and c) the judge is too patient with the D team. Admittedly, I haven't followed a whole lot of cases through trail, so it's just my personal observation and nothing more. I chalk it up to human nature and wanting to see justice for these horrible crimes, but again, that's JMO.

I know I bring up the Mollie Tibbetts trial a lot in comparison to this one, but something really stuck with me from that trial. The D laid out a very unconvincing, even silly, story before the court, so of course, all the above observations came into play. But what stuck with me was when the D was speaking with the media after court one day. They said that this was the story their client had told them consistently. I mean, IMO, they almost sounded defeated when they said that, like they were trying to be convincing and supportive of their client, but they also couldn't fully hide the fact that they KNEW what that story sounded like, even though they were the ones having to tell it. It really opened my eyes to what the D sometimes has to do in order to defend their client, especially when the client isn't forthright. JMO.

I've only followed a handful through trial - am doing so more regularly now that I'm almost retired. It is so fascinating. I love trials and legal proceedings (and have spent a lot of time observing court proceedings), but following one of the Big Headline trials is something else. I learn so much. The Murdaugh trial was riveting (and almost unbelievable). Unanimous against Murdaugh, of course - even though I was sitting at home wondering if the jury could see through the "defense." They did.

Locals are positioned uniquely to judge their peers. They know the community and its standards. They know their own levels of faith and they know the kinds of community values and intentions that govern common sense in their region.

Thank you so much for all your Mollie Tibbetts analysis. I didn't follow that one, but learn so much from you here. It was the Letecia Stauch trial where I first saw a defense...collapse? As in, rolling their eyes or looking as if they were asleep or coming in late. General body language stuff. Most of all, mostly avoiding looking at their client. They knew they had no defense. Their expert witness was a huge bust.

Of course, in CO, they allow an insanity defense, so I worried that one juror would find Letecia insane because, well, here on WS we were all saying, "She's CRAZY" and things like that (she is crazy in the colloquial sense - just not legally insane). I was worried for no reason.

It's the same with some worriers in this case, although I have real confidence in a rapid conviction once the jury gets the case of State v. Bryan Kohberger. As the State layers its various evidence (some of which was not even available at the time of the PCA), it will be riveting, repetitive and the jury will have made up its mind way before it's over (and start to feel numb). The SM records of BK and similar things from his various searches and purchases are going to be ground level circumstantial evidence, upon which ever more concrete and specific evidence will be erected. He admits being out and about that night, on top of everything else.

Since the State also has pairs of his shoes to compare to the wear pattern on the footprints in the house, I wouldn't be surprised if they choose that CE to start with - it will make it clear what the sex, general height - and FOOT TYPE the murderer had (and the evidence is written in the blood of a victim - probably Xana). It will be heartbreaking to hear, but Xana's evidence WILL be heard. Those footprints are real. And provide way more information than most people think.

In the past, before SM and the bizarre expectation that we're supposed to have videos or similar of every criminal action before we convict, those footprints plus the DNA would likely have been enough (and I bet the jury will be thinking the same thing). SOMEONE killed four people - and his footprint will reveal a great deal about who he is. His car will reveal more (by its make and model and its being out on the roads that night, as admitted by this defendant). That's without the DNA. Or the various digital components of this case (phone pings were confined to ATT cell towers in the PCA, as I understand it - by now they also have his GPS - more accurate, and pings/handshakes from various towers and masts). A camera shows him turning into the parking area of 1122 King Road mere minutes before the murders and then speeding off just afterwards.

The State has a strong story to tell. The Defense, so far, has no good alternate story and is already leaning into technicalities (and somehow, trying to impugn LEO's, which is a typical defense strategy but one that many jurors dislike, as we've all been in situations where a wrongdoer blames the person who caught them).

IMO.
 
I like hearing this. I was dismayed on Friday at the option of get the jury in here. I would like him to waive his rights to a speedy trial so that it's thorough, well researched, and effective for all parties. JMOO
And I would prefer a speedy trial, for the sake of the families, who are tenterhooks until this phase of their life is over and done with.

If he waives his right to a speedy trial, I agree with @MassGuy that we're look at late 2024 - or even sometime in 2025. And none of the basic facts will change and there will be nothing to research (the State is polishing its case, not researching it, IMO). The Defense has basically nothing and aside from further legal research, they have little left to do. IMO.

But, there is one way in which waiting until 2025 suits BK and that's that he remains in the public eye. And there may even be a pragmatic reason: he hopes people will forget; that some potential jurors will not have been in Moscow for this ongoing tragedy of immense proportions).

IMO. But I believe that trying to wait for the jury pool to change is not sporting.
 
A critical decision tree led to the police's exclusion of the other unidentified male DNA samples, focusing exclusively on BK. However, it's incorrect for the prosecution to claim they lack results for those three samples, as if that were the case they wouldn't know their gender.

This raises several pressing questions:

Did the investigators conduct any genealogical testing on these three suspects, considering their inclusion in the crime lab analysis, a departure from DOJ guidelines reserving DNA testing for primary crime scene samples? If so, what findings cleared these three individuals as potential suspects?

Are there any established connections between these men and BK, even distant ones, suggesting a possibility that one of them might have known BK without a close relationship, a convenient scenario for a setup?

Conversely, if post-crime lab genealogical testing was not performed on these samples, what was the rationale behind this decision? Somebody made that decision, for a reason.
 
I really do think it was BK who initially demanded his right to a speedy trial so the Defense jumped on board with both feet and strategically crafted many prophetic Motions to see exactly what the State has. They didn't get to see it in a PH so they pushed hard for everything they thought they might have gotten by crossing the State's witnesses in a PH.

I also believe AT thought she would keep getting her Motion's to Stay, in order to firm up the alibi that wasn't. She's good, she got a lot. But now the Judge has called the Defense's hand, and basically said put up or shut up. Which I think was the right call finally. They can't have it both ways: speedy, stay, speedy, stay.

Come Sept 8th, I believe BK will waive his right to a speedy trial and that will afford the Defense to craft a proper strategy for a DP case. If he doesn't, then I think he's a man who wants to play the game.

JMO

Yes, I think so too - because, of course, BK wanted his day in court, quickly, to exonerate himself. Which strongly implies an actual alibi. As we have seen, there is no alibi other than his own account of things.

And I agree that they can't have it both ways. I too think they will eventually change their tune and waive the right, as the Court seems quite unconvinced by their Motions to Stay (as the Court should be).

The Defense will attempt to change its approach after that, but nothing in this world is going to turn up major new evidence or witnesses, IMO. What is likely to happen is a fierce behind-the-scenes attempt to get a plea bargain - but I'm not sure the State will ever offer that. If BK was counting on these motions to gain him a plea bargain, I don't think it's working.

IMO.
 
And I would prefer a speedy trial, for the sake of the families, who are tenterhooks until this phase of their life is over and done with.

If he waives his right to a speedy trial, I agree with @MassGuy that we're look at late 2024 - or even sometime in 2025. And none of the basic facts will change and there will be nothing to research (the State is polishing its case, not researching it, IMO). The Defense has basically nothing and aside from further legal research, they have little left to do. IMO.

But, there is one way in which waiting until 2025 suits BK and that's that he remains in the public eye. And there may even be a pragmatic reason: he hopes people will forget; that some potential jurors will not have been in Moscow for this ongoing tragedy of immense proportions).

IMO. But I believe that trying to wait for the jury pool to change is not sporting.
It will definitely be telling if BK waives after all this demanding a speedy trial. I don't want him to waive either - for all the reasons you gave - and also because I'm anxious for all these issues AT is raising to be settled. I'm all for correcting issues that impact a defendant's rights. That issue she took to the Idaho SC and won is an excellent example. Good for her. But I really disliked yesterday's disingenuous posturing (IMO). Trying to sell something your own witness has done for 9 years as "brand new" for example. Essentially throwing mud on all LE and the usage of certain data at all because someone "could" cheat the system. And if I remember correctly, the witness said she had done it herself. Pretty hypocritical to testify to keep other people from doing what you yourself did. Hmph. MOOooo
 
And I would prefer a speedy trial, for the sake of the families, who are tenterhooks until this phase of their life is over and done with.

If he waives his right to a speedy trial, I agree with @MassGuy that we're look at late 2024 - or even sometime in 2025. And none of the basic facts will change and there will be nothing to research (the State is polishing its case, not researching it, IMO). The Defense has basically nothing and aside from further legal research, they have little left to do. IMO.

But, there is one way in which waiting until 2025 suits BK and that's that he remains in the public eye. And there may even be a pragmatic reason: he hopes people will forget; that some potential jurors will not have been in Moscow for this ongoing tragedy of immense proportions).

IMO. But I believe that trying to wait for the jury pool to change is not sporting.

It might be just a little bit different when you live here, or depending upon the mood of things. Tomorrow is the start of classes locally and we had to deal with BK all Friday long, awful smoke from wildfires, all with optimisc students filling the area. Mind you, the courthouse is just blocks away in such a small town. It has been a lot to process.

It may be self-serving to need a break from all of this or to wish it would go to a different county. I also listened to quite a few experts out of Boise who thought that it would and maybe that is why I am disappointed. IDK.

Moscow just hasn't reached the year mark and the trial is going to run into that quickly. I think I could become a little bit more objective with him elsewhere. I haven't shared this thought before but that's how I feel.

Not exactly an opinion but JMOO for the heck of it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
192
Guests online
1,565
Total visitors
1,757

Forum statistics

Threads
599,305
Messages
18,094,336
Members
230,846
Latest member
sidsloth
Back
Top