4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #87

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Pretty sure everyone thinks he was indeed out driving around that night.

Makes sense, doesn't it? It's the truth. It's just not an actual alibi, as instead of placing him away from the scene, it moves him out of his apartment and allows of him being in Moscow.

That's my problem with it. It's not exonerating and it's not an alibi. But I agree that it's the truth.

IMO.

Spot on imo, and a great post.

As was stated by him in the alibi, he was awake, he was out, and he was behind the wheel of that Elantra.

Only Q is did he make a "stop" in between because he's already admitted (or committed) to the other statements. Seems to me from what we've seen of the public facing information that he probably did.

But all jmo
 
I think that's a good point. Atm the alibi is essentially 'was driving around between late hours Nov 12th and and early hours Nov 13th". That is vague in itself but it indicates, along with the explanation that follows, that D is looking for supporting evidence to show BK was elsewhere at the time of the murders - that is what an alibi is. When they mention expert witnessess that may be called I think that's an option open tactic - looking for video footage of other white sedans that are anywhere but in King Road neighbourhood between 3.30 and 4.25pm. If footage like that is found, as long as it is not so far away that it makes it impossible for BK and his phone and car to be on Highway 95 at 4.50am,my feeling is defense will then call some expert to say that said white sedan could be an elantra and therefore that is support for BK's alibi, albeit weak and as you suggest also suspect in terms of cart before the horse. But D will try to hold off on the details until they find the 'support'. But the question is - will ICR rules/judge allow this much extending of the time while the D keeps looking. And if they do - time is going to have to be given to the P to counter - all prior to trial. Moo

My understanding is that the judge can allow for this alibi defense even once the trial has started, it is up to the judge's discretion in Idaho with regard to the alibi rule. In order to give the prosecution time to get up to speed, though, they would likely need a continuance ordered by the judge - or requested by the prosecution or the defense - or both.


Edited to change state to Idaho
and spelling
 
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If he is right handed, then I wouldn't be surprised if he flipped hands for any behaviour or signing etc in front of LE or in public after the murders because he'll be trying to imply he doesn't use his right hand (which might have been the one that did the murders). His video footage from the car stop might give some clues.
Only around 1% of the population are genuinely ambidextrous and it is considered to be inborn in those persons. 90% of the world is right handed.


I just had surgery on my left (and dominant) hand. I have always been a bit of an oddity though. Anything requiring fine motor skill like writing, eating, sewing, etc., is strictly a left-handed skill for me, but I bowl, play soft ball and shoot right handed. I taught myself to do a lot of things like eating with a fork, flipping food will cooking and taking care of personal needs right-handed in prep for the surgery. My left thumb is in a hard brace for 6 weeks, so I really had no other choice. However, I cannot write with my right hand because my brain keeps giving the left-handed moves to my right hand.

So, if BK truly can write with both hands, he's something of a unicorn. :) MOOooo
 
My understanding is that the judge can allow for this alibi defense even once the trail has started, it is up to the judge's discretion in Ohio with regard to the alibi rule. In order to give the prosecution time to get up to speed, though, they would likely need a continuance ordered by the judge - or requested by the prosecution or the defense - or both.

This is how I read Idaho too. And, I would think he'll allow them great deference. Alibi aside, they are allowed to cross any state witness. They are also allowed to call their own. He won't want to make a ruling on evidence that they can appeal. Which is why this whole alibi though, isn't really an alibi imo and the proper thing would have been to not submit any alibi defense at all.

jmo
 
i do not understand this theory that BK is so strongly influencing strategy. clients get to decide whether to plea or go to trial, whether to testify, and whether to appeal. that’s it. strategy is left to the lawyer. i suppose there’s a hail mary/nothing better to say aspect to this, but i think it’s a terrible decision MOO

We don't know if BK has insisted to his defense attorney that the information about him driving around in the middle of the night be included in an alibi defense filing. He may have insisted and even though his attorney didn't want to go in that direction or file an alibi defense, she would have had to if BK was totally insistent. If she didn't, then he would have grounds to change lawyers and maybe even include misrepresentation in an appeal if he was later found guilty (IANAL, just speculating on this).

On the other hand, maybe the alibi defense information is the decision of his attorneys, and there are things we don't know that they are planning as part of their strategy going forward.

Just want to affirm that a defendant has a right to help determine strategy and participate in decisions at all levels of his/her defense.
 
... Just want to affirm that a defendant has a right to help determine strategy and participate in decisions at all levels of his/her defense.
[snipped by me] Agree. Or risk an ineffective assistance of counsel claim, probably not successful though imo because there are no exculpatory witnesses to investigate or call for which the failure would rise to an ineffective assistance claim. It's the state's witnesses, which the defense has a right to examine anyway. So, the filing is window dressing of a non-existent alibi in the traditional sense of what we know an alibi to be.

jmo
 
Only around 1% of the population are genuinely ambidextrous and it is considered to be inborn in those persons. 90% of the world is right handed.


I just had surgery on my left (and dominant) hand. I have always been a bit of an oddity though. Anything requiring fine motor skill like writing, eating, sewing, etc., is strictly a left-handed skill for me, but I bowl, play soft ball and shoot right handed. I taught myself to do a lot of things like eating with a fork, flipping food will cooking and taking care of personal needs right-handed in prep for the surgery. My left thumb is in a hard brace for 6 weeks, so I really had no other choice. However, I cannot write with my right hand because my brain keeps giving the left-handed moves to my right hand.

So, if BK truly can write with both hands, he's something of a unicorn. :) MOOooo

My husband is a ambidextrous, was forced to use his right hand in primary school although he was left-handed then. He switches back and forth for different things, as you described that you do.
 
It is an alibi if the defense can prove that he was not at the king road house, that he was driving somewhere else.
Yes, and I believe that claim was specifically a part of the alibi - that yes, he was out driving alone but not near King Rd at all. The problem for LE is, there were 22,000 Elantras in the area with the original date range given by LE, which means, conservatively, there are probably more than 33,000+ Elantras in the final date range in the area. They have no video of BK's car on the highway between Pullman or Moscow, nor any video of his car entering Moscow. BK's car is also NOT the only white Hyundai Elantra in the area missing a front license plate. LE does not seem to know exactly how the vehicle got near Blaine or exactly how it left Moscow. So it seems to be possible that LE has mistaken one vehicle for another and that is where I believe the defense is going with this alibi.
 
Yes, and I believe that claim was specifically a part of the alibi - that yes, he was out driving alone but not near King Rd at all. The problem for LE is, there were 22,000 Elantras in the area with the original date range given by LE, which means, conservatively, there are probably more than 33,000+ Elantras in the final date range in the area. They have no video of BK's car on the highway between Pullman or Moscow, nor any video of his car entering Moscow. BK's car is also NOT the only white Hyundai Elantra in the area missing a front license plate. LE does not seem to know exactly how the vehicle got near Blaine or exactly how it left Moscow. So it seems to be possible that LE has mistaken one vehicle for another and that is where I believe the defense is going with this alibi.

If that is where the defense may be going with their alibi, then they must think they can somehow discredit the state's cell phone evidence, perhaps with their own cell phone experts who claim the cell phone evidence is ambiguous or not absolute?
 
TL;DR: The difference between a 'hot prowl' and 'home invasion' is not usually in the law. Both are breaking and entering where I live, AKA burglary.

The "hot prowl" was made famous here in California by GSK (Joe DeAngelo, finally caught decades after his rapes and murders via genetic genealogy). Even before he was caught, it was clear that the Visalia Ransacker had started with cold prowling, then moved on to "ransacking" (in which he mostly disturbed contents of the house, but also took certain things - coin collections, Green and Blue stamp collections).

A cold prowl is when someone comes in and cases your home while you're not there. That has personally happened to me and has also happened to other women I know. In one case, the guy actually ate food from the fridge, watched TV and used the shower/restroom (this happened to a friend of mine, at first she thought she was going crazy, then she was truly terrified and of course moved - to a new job and to a new apartment). I have interviewed cold prowlers (they were in jail ultimately for burglary/theft of some kind).

I believe that DeAngelo started with cold prowling (probably in his teens, many teens do it). When I was 8, two teen age girls took me on a cold prowl. They made it seem like it was "okay" with the little old lady whose house it was. They looked in her refrigerator, took a sip of something (I think it might have been beer) and giggled a lot. We were there for about 5 minutes. They lived just up the street from this lady and knew her and her habits. Neither of these girls went on to become a criminal.

Hot prowling is when the person breaks and enters when people are asleep and just stares at them (often an escalation of peeping tom-ness). It's the next step in their criminal practice. DeAngelo probably hot prowled 10X the people that he actually raped or murdered. He may or may not have taken tokens from some of those houses, he was not made to confess during his plea bargain, so we'll never know. At any rate, hot prowling is psychologically an escalation from peeping tom-ness and from cold prowling).

A home invasion is bent on awakening the people within and terrorizing them, either to give up all their valuables and the cash in the house OR their ATM pin, etc. Home invasion can be by one person, but it is often more than one person. The person is armed, almost always guns are involved. There's been a spate of them near my work recently, two men with guns - they think they've caught one of them and the other has a warrant for his arrest. Home invasions are not usually preceded by any sort of prowling (although I'm sure somewhere, there are people who have escalated from prowling to invading).

The home invader literature and research suggests that houses are chosen by "perceived value," (so big McMansions are targeted as are country club homes, large houses on larger properties, and here in L.A., the most important variable is: proximity to freeway. ALL of the home invasions in my own hometown (we had a series about 5 years ago not far from my house) were right next to the freeway, as in, get off, take first right into neighborhood, see big houses at night with lights out, kick down the door, come in with guns, etc. The three in my area were off three different off ramps, but all of them were the first neighborhood one came to, after getting off the freeway. It is believed they were all the same two guys - no one was ever arrested.

We got a metal framed door, built a (cute) fence/gate for the front yard. There were also some burglaries going on (daytime, cold prowling and burglary), same M/O though - kick in the front door. We had had a security system and cameras already - none of the houses that were burgled OR invaded had either of those. I even know one homeowner who put a trip wire around the edge of his property, which set off lights and an alarm inside his house. They had the most expensive remodeled house in our neighborhood, even though we are not right off the freeway, they were scared.

In my own view, almost every serious criminal starts out "small." Peeping, then cold prowling are common. Going on to hot prowling is major, though. It's fairly rare, and it is usually related to fantasies in the criminal's mind about rape or other horrific crimes. That's the reason that many of us here have commented, in these 80+ threads, about the vulnerability of a "Party House" or a house with windows that are not covered, where the interior is generally somewhat lit at night. A house with people possibly coming and going in the night, anyway (so that everyone is used to various footfalls around the house). The police referred to 1122 King Road as a "fish bowl," IIRC. For the people who are just creepers/peepers, that's an inviting house (and it's possible that some of these creeps actually do interact with each other online - it has happened).

Once a person has broken the creeping/stalking/peeping tabu, I believe that person is at risk for developing even more antisocial behaviors. In a case I was involved with here in my town, a cold prowler/burglar is now in prison for life - because he panicked and stabbed to death a 13 year old boy who happened to surprise him by being in the house, during the day, when he had just broken in. The boy was home sick from school, heard the door open, got up and went toward the kitchen. The killer came out of the kitchen with a knife.

The police were able to link this criminal to several other burglaries (cold prowl style) in which cash and credit cards were stolen. Police believe the killing was unplanned (but not un-thought of).

While creeping and peeping, criminals like DeAngelo collect a lot of information about who is home, who comes home when, etc. DeAngelo even used the phones inside the houses on occasion, drew maps, and preferred tracts of homes where he could know the home lay-outs (he would attend real estate open houses, developer open houses, and of course, he also got to go inside houses to investigate crime, as he was a policeman throughout most of his criminal career).

IMO. IME.

Interesting stuff, thanks for this info.

I was just watching a discussion about Charles Manson on youtube (The Behaviour Panel, uploaded 3 days ago). Coincidentally, it was mentioned in this that CM was known for prowling (hot prowling) people's houses and doing weird stuff knowing that they were inside and it would freak them out. For example, he was friends with some quite well known music industry people and he entered their home whilst they were asleep upstairs and moved all their living room furniture around.

ETA: apparently there's a lot more to this in the case of CM and he encouraged his followers to practice doing this as part of their 'training' leading up to murder, calling it 'creepy crawling'. Yuk.
 
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Interesting stuff, thanks for this info.

I was just watching a discussion about Charles Mansion on youtube (The Behaviour Panel, uploaded 3 days ago). Coincidentally, it was mentioned in this that CM was known for prowling (hot prowling) people's houses and doing weird stuff knowing that they were inside and it would freak them out. For example, he was friends with some quite well known music industry people and he entered their home whilst they were asleep upstairs and moved all their living room furniture around.
The Manson Family called it 'creepy crawling'. It's been pretty well described a number of places, not least Bugliosi and Gentry's Helter Skelter.

MOO
 
Yes, and I believe that claim was specifically a part of the alibi - that yes, he was out driving alone but not near King Rd at all. The problem for LE is, there were 22,000 Elantras in the area with the original date range given by LE, which means, conservatively, there are probably more than 33,000+ Elantras in the final date range in the area. They have no video of BK's car on the highway between Pullman or Moscow, nor any video of his car entering Moscow. BK's car is also NOT the only white Hyundai Elantra in the area missing a front license plate. LE does not seem to know exactly how the vehicle got near Blaine or exactly how it left Moscow. So it seems to be possible that LE has mistaken one vehicle for another and that is where I believe the defense is going with this alibi.
Yes, Anne Taylor clearly stated in the document that he was not at the King Road House and they are working on it to prove it and to prove that he was driving somewhere else. It was written in all caps two times in the alibi notice, the NOT being there. She couldn't be clearer than that. That is his alibi he was driving somewhere else. I don't get why people say that the alibi notice was an admission from them that it was his car in the king road neighborhood.
And i don't think at all it is a bad strategy, to telling the truth and not fabricating an elaborate alibi. People can only view this move from the guilty perspective. But what if he is innocent not a bad move all of a sudden.
All in my opinion of course.
 
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Yes, Anne Taylor clearly stated in the document that he was not at the King Road House and they are working on it to prove it. It was written in all caps two times in the alibi notice. That is his alibi he was driving somewhere else. I don't get why people say that the alibi notice was an admission from them that it was his car in the king road neighborhood.
What an odd coincidence that, if he wasn't the driver of the white Hyundai near the King Rd house at the time of the murders, he just so happened to drive by later that morning (before the murders had even been discovered and reported on social media or news). I mean, really, what are the odds and how does he explain that?

Is this where we are headed?
BK went out for a late night/early am drive, took a knife in sheath with him, stopped and parked somewhere in Moscow but not near King Rd, did a little "snow dance" which involved nudity and knife carried in its sheath (because, being nude, there was nothing to secure the sheath to), left (not realizing he'd dropped his sheath), went for a drive south of Moscow and circled back around to Pullman for some sleep, then went back to Moscow to see if his "snow dance" had worked (and perhaps to attempt to find the innocently dropped sheath, without success).

So, some mysterious stranger with bushy eyebrows must have picked up his knife sheath and taken it with them when they murdered the young adults at King Rd. And the nude guy spotted by BF must have been BK snow dancing (but not close to King Rd and having nothing to do with the murderous violence upstairs).

ETA: BK strikes me as one who got away with a lot by telling ridiculous lies to wiggle his way out of being held responsible.
 
My understanding is that the judge can allow for this alibi defense even once the trial has started, it is up to the judge's discretion in Idaho with regard to the alibi rule. In order to give the prosecution time to get up to speed, though, they would likely need a continuance ordered by the judge - or requested by the prosecution or the defense - or both.


Edited to change state to Idaho
and spelling
Continuance a D tactical win.
Could be the whole reason to delay saying the obvious as an alibi, that it is him in his car.

Not a alibi at all.
The motion is just "I was there but I didn't do it. Somebody (BF) said she saw somone else and texted about it, so it wasn't me."

MOO all ATs activity are around this thread. Hope the jury is up to the task of sorting spin from reasonable doubt.
 
I want to add the Linda Lane camera reveals that a pace of human activity all night in that sudent neighborhood, probably happens especially on Saturday night.

So BF seeing someone is going to be in context of, yes, there are people doing things around there at night.
None left their DNA on a killing knife sheath at the crime scene.
 
It is an alibi if the defense can prove that he was not at the king road house, that he was driving somewhere else.

Yes, then it would be. But that's not what they put in their document and that's not how they responded. Instead, they reserve the right to call BK himself to the stand.

That's not a strong alibi. If there's proof he was somewhere else (linked to a cell tower outside Moscow) they would have to produce that right now if they intend to use it in court. If they find it later, then they don't have it right now.

So, from that, I deduce they do not have that right now, as they are required by law in Idaho to give the evidence of the alibi.

IMO>
 
Yes, and I believe that claim was specifically a part of the alibi - that yes, he was out driving alone but not near King Rd at all. The problem for LE is, there were 22,000 Elantras in the area with the original date range given by LE, which means, conservatively, there are probably more than 33,000+ Elantras in the final date range in the area. They have no video of BK's car on the highway between Pullman or Moscow, nor any video of his car entering Moscow. BK's car is also NOT the only white Hyundai Elantra in the area missing a front license plate. LE does not seem to know exactly how the vehicle got near Blaine or exactly how it left Moscow. So it seems to be possible that LE has mistaken one vehicle for another and that is where I believe the defense is going with this alibi.
I think those are all good points/thoughts.

My (broken record) reminder is the PCA was written to establish clear probable cause only. No where near all of the evidence LE had at that time, even, is included. MOO, there’s art & strategy involved in crafting the PCA to establish PC without giving away the store & morphing a PCA into a mini-trial of sorts.

And as other posters have mentioned many times, the investigation continued post-arrest, MOO.

We’re still working with the facts as presented in the PCA & things gleaned from subsequent court filings, but both the State & Defense have boatloads more, MOO.
 
Yes, and I believe that claim was specifically a part of the alibi - that yes, he was out driving alone but not near King Rd at all. The problem for LE is, there were 22,000 Elantras in the area with the original date range given by LE, which means, conservatively, there are probably more than 33,000+ Elantras in the final date range in the area. They have no video of BK's car on the highway between Pullman or Moscow, nor any video of his car entering Moscow. BK's car is also NOT the only white Hyundai Elantra in the area missing a front license plate. LE does not seem to know exactly how the vehicle got near Blaine or exactly how it left Moscow. So it seems to be possible that LE has mistaken one vehicle for another and that is where I believe the defense is going with this alibi.

What is meant by "the area"? That sounds like the number for the entire state of Idaho - is that what is meant by area?

I don't think the position of the car is based only on camera footage. There is a phone, belonging to Kohberger, in the car and it accompanied the car - unless the Defense can figure out how it only seemed to travel with the car for most of two journeys on that night/day.

It's not as if the car sightings on video are the only evidence. The PHONE provides the route by which he traveled to and from Moscow (with the phone turned off for part of it). Fortunately, he provided photographic proof that he and his phone traveled with the car by stopping at Albertson's just hours after the killings.

How does his phone get to Blaine? What possible evidence could the Defense use to show that the phone somehow got there without the car?
 
MOO He said cant remember where he went ...even though he he went there the next morning.
No, there is no mention
anywhere that he doesn't remember where he was driving.
Maybe he remembers just the general area, i imagine. But it is not enough for an alibi. They need to account for the timeframe the murders happened. And if he was in an area where there was no cell phone coverage especially hard to determine.
But how could he recall and say with certainty where he was exactly in those minutes the prosecution claims the murders were commited?
If he is innocent and he was genuinely just out driving those 16 minutes is a fraction of his driving that night, just another night spent with driving around. Who could remember that?
 
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