4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #89

[girlhasnoname]

His middle school friend said they BOTH felt frustrated with the dating scene, with the ghosting phenomenon, not with women in general, big difference. Who would not be?
The question is how far did those frustrations go and what language was used? Was anything Bryan said violent or particularly worrying?
How many teenage boys (and grown men, for that matter) have this experience? Don’t women also have this experience?
We've all complained with our friends. Wish I had a dollar for all the "Ugh I hate men" conversations I've had over the years. I have a guy who struggles with matching on dating apps and experiencing romantic relationships. He complains about it all the time, but NEVER shows ill will, aggression or derogatory views towards women.
Being frustrated with dating is different to hating women and wanting to inflict pain and punish them. I haven't seen anything so far that confirms that he was a women hating incels the media so desperately portrays.
Many of the stories that attack BK's character are vague and lack context, a lot are not even first accounts. They hone in on words like frustrated and aggressive without giving examples of what actually was said or done. Since his arrest, the media has been clearly dishonest when reporting about BK, twisting words to fit to their narrative and give the articles sensationalist headlines to gain clicks.

BBM

Whatever BK did regarding the 2 girls in the class was worrying enough to move him to field of study (HVAC I believe) that had no female participants. That is not 'normal or nominal behavior' in my book.

This was a first hand account of a situation, so I'm going with it's truthful, and it will probably come up in trial as one example of BK's behavior toward girls and women in general. I do believe there will be many more, including the others that we've heard about and some that we haven't.

MOO

 

[maskedwoman]

<snipped> Interesting, maybe BK blamed his failures on women?

One of Kohberger's former friends, JB, also spoke to Fox Nation about the case and the arrest, saying that Kohberger was often frustrated with women. JB also said that Kohberger expressed issues to him about his dating life and how he would be "ghosted a lot" by females.

Bryan Kohberger was moved away from female students, administrator reveals

For me, this has put a new perspective on that young woman who said she went out with BK once and pretended to become ill to get him to leave. I would love to know what happened with those female students but it must have been pretty straightforward for him to take the action of removing him. Bravo to the school for taking action.

Sadly, I suspect we will eventually receive confirmation that there was a long history of escalating warning signs that BK could be/was extremely dangerous. We've already had quite a few hints of this. MOOooo

 

[Trebor5591]

It seems to be the case that BK was directing his training and education directly towards a career in law enforcement. If he had been roundly rejected by LE in his recent application, it could be the case that there was verbal feedback or informal feedback we don't know about where they gave him their reasoning. I wonder if some things from his past would permanently preclude him from a career in LE and he hadn't realised that until he made the application? I wonder if he had been told to re-direct his efforts as LE or Govt departments would never progress him? This could have been devastating information, in combination with being removed from his academic teaching placement.

JMO MOO speculation as we have not been informed of what the feedback or results of his application to LE was.

Perhaps his heroin addiction in high school would have disqualified him from a career in law enforcement? JMO

 

[Chloegirl]

Perhaps his heroin addiction in high school would have disqualified him from a career in law enforcement? JMO

Here's the thing. There have been red flags throughout for BK. Lots of support, guidance, rehab, tummy tuck, female feedback, women distancing from him. He appears to have refused to get the message. He was not able to become an army ranger or something adjacent so he's not getting the message there either. People around him are telling him things and he's not absorbing.

He was probably well supported by family (possibly even coddled after discovery or diagnosis). But once out on his own, his grievances would become too many.

I think we will learn lots of unsettling things about BK as time progresses (making delay of the process not a good approach). Opportunities were missed to intervene. This makes these heinous murders even more frustrating. JMOO

 

[Justice101]

Here's the thing. There have been red flags throughout for BK. Lots of support, guidance, rehab, tummy tuck, female feedback, women distancing from him. He appears to have refused to get the message. He was not able to become an army ranger or something adjacent so he's not getting the message there either. People around him are telling him things and he's not absorbing.

He was probably well supported by family (possibly even coddled after discovery or diagnosis). But once out on his own, his grievances would become too many.

I think we will learn lots of unsettling things about BK as time progresses (making delay of the process not a good approach). Opportunities were missed to intervene. This makes these heinous murders even more frustrating. JMOO

spot on. His behavior was probably in check in PA because his parents were around. In Idaho, he's on his own and probably spiraled out of control quickly. His secret obsessions could be fulfilled.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Perhaps his heroin addiction in high school would have disqualified him from a career in law enforcement? JMO

I suspect so. Especially if there were any connected crimes or criminal data held against BK that LE are / were aware of but weren't pushed forwards to an arrest or charge or prosecution. He may not have been aware that this data was held.

Here in the UK, the London Metropolitan Police have a system called 'Crimint' (Criminal Intelligence Database) on which officers record any interactions or information or reports about people who are considered to be 'suspicious' in any way whatsoever and they don't have to be convicted criminals or even have ever been charged with anything. It could cause a problem if applying for LE roles or any type of government job or responsibility.

 

[Sozo]

BBM

Whatever BK did regarding the 2 girls in the class was worrying enough to move him to field of study (HVAC I believe) that had no female participants. That is not 'normal or nominal behavior' in my book.

This was a first hand account of a situation, so I'm going with it's truthful, and it will probably come up in trial as one example of BK's behavior toward girls and women in general. I do believe there will be many more, including the others that we've heard about and some that we haven't.

MOO

I don't get this story.
On one hand the incidents were not criminal, not bold, not aggressive according to Carmella-Beers, and she wouldn't kicked him out if it was up to her, and she also said this about him:
"He appeared to be the total package, and he was," Carmella-Beers said. "Other than that incident, Bryan was a very strong student, peformed well and he took his program seriously. His uniform was immaculate every day, everything about him was perfect so to speak, everything."
On the other hand this incident lead to them not allowing BK in programs where there were girls. Can a school do this at all?
Why he needed to be separated from girls, if it was between him and one or two particular girl not with every girls who crossed his path. Its like if a white kid had a conflict with a black kid and from then on he couldn't be amongst the black kids in the school or vica verca. Not one scool can do this without repercussions.
Something isn't right with this whole story. Interesting in her first interview this woman didn't mention that they only allowed him to enroll in program where there were no girls after this incident and she said there was only one incident.
I don't know why she is speaking about it at all. She knew full well she can't disclose details so why say anything. Giving just enough to get people's imagination going. Very unprofessional, unethical.

 

[Arkay]

Other than that incident, Bryan was a very strong student, peformed well and he took his program seriously. His uniform was immaculate every day, everything about him was perfect so to speak, everything."

To me this teacher sounds like “other than that incident with John Wilkes Booth assassinating Lincoln, he was a very fine actor.”

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

I suspect so. Especially if there were any connected crimes or criminal data held against BK that LE are / were aware of but weren't pushed forwards to an arrest or charge or prosecution. He may not have been aware that this data was held.

Here in the UK, the London Metropolitan Police have a system called 'Crimint' (Criminal Intelligence Database) on which officers record any interactions or information or reports about people who are considered to be 'suspicious' in any way whatsoever and they don't have to be convicted criminals or even have ever been charged with anything. It could cause a problem if applying for LE roles or any type of government job or responsibility.

Oooh, good catch. Since the facts came out in non-chronological order, I am not sure this has been discussed here. We learned that he had been excluded from his proposed "digital forensics" internship with Pullman PD, which is a big blow to a person with a master's in criminal justice and who is also a doctoral student in criminology. These internships are usually designed specifically for the students at the local university.

But, if like most LEA's, they ran an FBI background check, his expunged and/or juvenile records would still show up. Further, every police application I've ever seen asks for disclosure by the candidate of ANY criminal history and usually has language that goes, "Even if expunged, you must state it; if it is discovered that you checked the box for "No criminal history" but that you have criminal matters in your records, that will disqualify you from working for us." And they mean it - it's a permanent disqualification. So if he failed to disclose AND they found his theft misdemeanor, he was toast.

Sometimes, the application forms will say "Excluding traffic violations." If not, the instructions may say, "Include traffic violations and their approximate year." Where I work, we no longer have to report misdemeanors or expunged records (which resulted in the hiring of a vice president who had been convicted of second degree murder in his early 20's - and eventually got the record expunged). Nevertheless, a simple google search of his name on a news paper archive service yielded plenty of information (academics are such snoops - the person who looked him up had her reasons, but she sure didn't keep quiet about it). He performed well at his job, IMO.

SO, what if Kohberger tried to slide into the Pullman PD and they ran a thorough background check (as police usually do) and he had lied on his application? Or, if he told the truth, they decided the theft conviction was enough to exclude him? OR, is there MORE on his record and we just don't know about it. Surely they'd have to be expungements or some reporter some where would have had a scoop.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I don't get this story.
On one hand the incidents were nothing serious, not criminal, not bold, not aggressive according to Carmella-Beers, and she wouldn't kicked him out if it was up to her, and she also said this about him:
"He appeared to be the total package, and he was," Carmella-Beers said. "Other than that incident, Bryan was a very strong student, peformed well and he took his program seriously. His uniform was immaculate every day, everything about him was perfect so to speak, everything."
On the other hand this incident lead to them not allowing BK in programs where there were girls. Can a school do this at all?
Why he needed to be separated from girls, if it was between him and one or two particular girl not with every girls who crossed his path. Its like if a white kid had a conflict with a black kid and from then on he couldn't be amongst the black kids in the school or vica verca. Not one scool can do this without repercussions.
Something isn't right with this whole story. Interesting in her first interview this woman didn't mention that they only allowed him to enroll in program where there were no girls after this incident and she said there was only one incident.
I don't know why she is speaking about it at all. She knew full well she can't disclose details so why say anything. Giving just enough to get people's imagination going. Very unprofessional, unethical.

Who is Carmella-Beers and where can I find an approved source on what she said?

I think what she said is very odd. It’s a kind of “recommendation” that is so OTT that it sounds unprofessional, IMO. How long had she known him? What is her job?

It is perfectly okay for a “school” to do this (it’s really a series of human individuals who make these decisions) IF the participants agree to it. Often, a student will accept a measure like this if the alternative is even worse.

We aren’t privy to the details. I’m not prone to criticizing victims of sexual harassment (or discrimination) or the schools who take action. Things have really changed. Many schools have zero tolerance for acting out that borders on or constitutes sexual harassment/discrimination. You might be surprised at what is NOT allowed on campuses (high school and college) these days.

But most of the time, some kind of compromise agreement is sought as a first measure. If WSU ever decided to call administrators from his prior colleges, that would be interesting to know (and it wouldn’t surprise me if Prof S himself took some initiative - as he allowed to do, as we are all allowed to do in the US).

IMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Who is Carmella-Beers and where can I find an approved source on what she said?

I think what she said is very odd. It’s a kind of “recommendation” that is so OTT that it sounds unprofessional, IMO. How long had she known him? What is her job?

It is perfectly okay for a “school” to do this (it’s really a series of human individuals who make these decisions) IF the participants agree to it. Often, a student will accept a measure like this if the alternative is even worse.

We aren’t privy to the details. I’m not prone to criticizing victims of sexual harassment (or discrimination) or the schools who take action. Things have really changed. Many schools have zero tolerance for acting out that borders on or constitutes sexual harassment/discrimination. You might be surprised at what is NOT allowed on campuses (high school and college) these days.

But most of the time, some kind of compromise agreement is sought as a first measure. If WSU ever decided to call administrators from his prior colleges, that would be interesting to know (and it wouldn’t surprise me if Prof S himself took some initiative - as he allowed to do, as we are all allowed to do in the US).

IMO

<snipped & BBM>

"A situation occurred where a complaint was made and the teacher reported it to me and said ... an investigation needed to be conducted," said Carmella-Beers. "Other students were interviewed, Bryan was interviewed, and, you know, there comes a time when decisions have to be made, whether it's the decision the student wants or not."

Carmella-Beers said that after he was removed from program, Kohberger "transitioned into [the] HVAC [program] and then, at the end of that 11th-grade year is when he decided not to return as a senior."

Carmella-Beers refused to elaborate on the allegations made against the teenaged Kohberger, but did comment that "when I look back on it now," and "what had him removed from the program," his arrest "makes sense."

Bryan Kohberger was moved away from female students, administrator reveals

ETA: I wonder if it involved a knife?

MOO

 

[Sozo]

Who is Carmella-Beers and where can I find an approved source on what she said?

I think what she said is very odd. It’s a kind of “recommendation” that is so OTT that it sounds unprofessional, IMO. How long had she known him? What is her job?

It is perfectly okay for a “school” to do this (it’s really a series of human individuals who make these decisions) IF the participants agree to it. Often, a student will accept a measure like this if the alternative is even worse.

We aren’t privy to the details. I’m not prone to criticizing victims of sexual harassment (or discrimination) or the schools who take action. Things have really changed. Many schools have zero tolerance for acting out that borders on or constitutes sexual harassment/discrimination. You might be surprised at what is NOT allowed on campuses (high school and college) these days.

But most of the time, some kind of compromise agreement is sought as a first measure. If WSU ever decided to call administrators from his prior colleges, that would be interesting to know (and it wouldn’t surprise me if Prof S himself took some initiative - as he allowed to do, as we are all allowed to do in the US).

IMO

Tanya Carmella-Beers, a former administrator at the Monroe Career and Technical Institute. She is the source of the story. Here are some articles.
And she spoke recently on Nancy Grace FOX Nation special: "Bryan Kohberger: I Am Blank."

It seems this program had very strict rules.

“Sometimes, depending on the disciplinary offense and any issues surrounding it, it may not be the student’s choice to be removed from a program — particularly a program that might have many rules and regulations in place,” Carmella-Beer said. “In general, a student can be very strong academically and perform very well in clinical work, but one or more infractions would take the opportunity to participate in that program away.”

Idaho murders suspect was kicked out of program after girls complained

Bryan Kohberger was kicked out of a high school law enforcement program after girls complained about his behavior, one of his former teachers has revealed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Bryan Kohberger was moved away from female students, administrator reveals

One of Kohberger's former friends, Jack Baylis, also spoke to Fox Nation about the case and the arrest, saying that Kohberger often was "frustrated" with women.

www.newsweek.com

Bryan Kohberger Completed High School Online for Reasons That Remain Unclear: Report

Donna Yozwiak tells the Idaho Statesman that the 28-year-old PhD student transitioned to online learning after spending his sophomore and junior years in a technical program offered by his school district.

www.insideedition.com

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

For those interested in reading chapters 9G2 and 12E3 reportedly cited in WSU’s termination letter to BK, you can find them here. Pretty standard & clear, MOO.

https://emailwsu.sharepoint.com/teams/gradschool.documentshare/Shared Documents/Forms/AllItems.aspx?id=/teams/gradschool.documentshare/Shared Documents/Policy and Procedure/Archive P&P Manuals/2022-23-gradschool-policies-procedures-16may2022.pdf&parent=/teams/gradschool.documentshare/Shared Documents/Policy and Procedure/Archive P&P Manuals&p=true&ga=1

HTH

edited to correct grammar (it to them)

Also edited to add 2-10-2023 NYT “University Investigated Idaho Murder Suspect’s Behavior Around Time of Killings” gift link
“Mr. Kohberger began having troubles about a month into the fall semester, his first at Washington State. He had an “altercation” on Sept. 23 with John Snyder, the W.S.U. professor he was assisting, according to the termination letter, a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times.”

BBM

 

[pittsburghgirl]

It seems to be the case that BK was directing his training and education directly towards a career in law enforcement. If he had been roundly rejected by LE in his recent application, it could be the case that there was verbal feedback or informal feedback we don't know about where they gave him their reasoning. I wonder if some things from his past would permanently preclude him from a career in LE and he hadn't realised that until he made the application? I wonder if he had been told to re-direct his efforts as LE or Govt departments would never progress him? This could have been devastating information, in combination with being removed from his academic teaching placement.

JMO MOO speculation as we have not been informed of what the feedback or results of his application to LE was.

I can only speak about my hometown police. They do psychological testing on all hires and they ask a lot of questions when they call references. I don't think they tell ones that don't make it that no one else would hire them. Remember that the police officer who killed Tamir Rice (boy with a toy gun in Cleveland) got hired in another jurisdiction.

 

[10ofRods]

<snipped & BBM>

"A situation occurred where a complaint was made and the teacher reported it to me and said ... an investigation needed to be conducted," said Carmella-Beers. "Other students were interviewed, Bryan was interviewed, and, you know, there comes a time when decisions have to be made, whether it's the decision the student wants or not."

Carmella-Beers said that after he was removed from program, Kohberger "transitioned into [the] HVAC [program] and then, at the end of that 11th-grade year is when he decided not to return as a senior."

Carmella-Beers refused to elaborate on the allegations made against the teenaged Kohberger, but did comment that "when I look back on it now," and "what had him removed from the program," his arrest "makes sense."

Bryan Kohberger was moved away from female students, administrator reveals

ETA: I wonder if it involved a knife?

MOO

Thank you so much! It's even worse. It's an ADMINISTRATOR who says this about him. Cough cough. Okay, so just how much day-to-day interaction does an adminstrator (dean, vp, pres, chancelor; vice chancellor) have with a student (answer = NONE). They just handle complaints. They are PR people.

(Not always though, some adminstrators are honest - but they don't go far).

This person is just reporting what they see in the college-exonerating investigation that was conducted. And here I thought we were going to get words from someone who actually knew him.

She's ONLY talking about the allegations and trying to make sure her own institution isn't sued, IMO.

I doubt it involved a knife! My lord! That's not how colleges and universities work - when a KNIFE appears, the case is police-driven, fortunately. Do any college campuses not have police on campus? I'm not aware of any.

This was an administrator-driven compromise that saved the college from lawsuits, IMO. She has to "look back" on it to see whatever she sees (in her defense, she probably had lots of complaints of this type every semester). She can't elaborate because she's not high enough in the administrator hierarchy to do so.

Whatever it is, she's admitting that it makes rational sense to connect Kohberger to murders.

And that's my take-away from this.

IMO.

 

[Nila Aella]

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest

• 09/08/2023 Order to Seal (Amazon)
• 09/08/2023 Order to Seal (Apple)
• 09/08/2023 Order to Seal (Paypal/Venmo)
• 09/08/2023 Order to Seal (Spotify)
• 09/08/2023 Order to Seal (Youtube)
• 09/12/2023 Reply to Intervenors Opposition to Motion
• 09/14/2023 Redacted Motion to Take Judicial Notice of the Grand Jury Record

 

[10ofRods]

I can only speak about my hometown police. They do psychological testing on all hires and they ask a lot of questions when they call references. I don't think they tell ones that don't make it that no one else would hire them. Remember that the police officer who killed Tamir Rice (boy with a toy gun in Cleveland) got hired in another jurisdiction.

Same here. Hometown police, current town police, all the sheriffs I've ever worked with. I was hired to assist in deciding which tests to use (as well as inventing other, more observational metrics). Something like MMPI is normal. LE who do not do such testing are open to incredible liability/lawsuits. Today, the tests are even better.

No one ever tells the candidates why they weren't hired (lawsuits).

And yes, they get hired elsewhere. I do remember Tamir Rice. I was engaged by LE to investigate some similar cases. The upshot (I'm in SoCal so not universal) was that no one should ever bluntly state that a LEO was a problem - unless they had been actually fired.

Of course, as the investigations went forward, the problem officers got jobs elsewhere. They knew they were in trouble. They avoided being fired. They quit and went elsewhere.

The battery of psychological tests has only improved since those days. Interestingly, I was myself viewed as too "soft" in my recommendations and both the local LE union and its administration opted for more testing (they were right to do so - I was willing to go with only MMPI and maybe it is a bit...soft).

At any rate, I can't believe that Washington, of all states (very anti-police in the sense that they don't want authoritarian nonsense in their police force) would not have some kind of screening.

imo

 

[10ofRods]

I suspect so. Especially if there were any connected crimes or criminal data held against BK that LE are / were aware of but weren't pushed forwards to an arrest or charge or prosecution. He may not have been aware that this data was held.

Here in the UK, the London Metropolitan Police have a system called 'Crimint' (Criminal Intelligence Database) on which officers record any interactions or information or reports about people who are considered to be 'suspicious' in any way whatsoever and they don't have to be convicted criminals or even have ever been charged with anything. It could cause a problem if applying for LE roles or any type of government job or responsibility.

Oooh, good catch. Since the facts came out in non-chronological order, I am not sure this has been discussed here. We learned that he had been excluded from his proposed "digital forensics" internship with Pullman PD, which is a big blow to a person with a master's in criminal justice and who is also a doctoral student in criminology. These internships are usually designed specifically for the students at the local university.

But, if like most LEA's, they ran an FBI background check, his expunged and/or juvenile records would still show up. Further, every police application I've ever seen asks for disclosure by the candidate of ANY criminal history and usually has language that goes, "Even if expunged, you must state it; if it is discovered that you checked the box for "No criminal history" but that you have criminal matters in your records, that will disqualify you from working for us." And they mean it - it's a permanent disqualification. So if he failed to disclose AND they found his theft misdemeanor, he was toast.

Sometimes, the application forms will say "Excluding traffic violations." If not, the instructions may say, "Include traffic violations and their approximate year." Where I work, we no longer have to report misdemeanors or expunged records (which resulted in the hiring of a vice president who had been convicted of second degree murder in his early 20's - and eventually got the record expunged). Nevertheless, a simple google search of his name on a news paper archive service yielded plenty of information (academics are such snoops - the person who looked him up had her reasons, but she sure didn't keep quiet about it). He performed well at his job, IMO.

SO, what if Kohberger tried to slide into the Pullman PD and they ran a thorough background check (as police usually do) and he had lied on his application? Or, if he told the truth, they decided the theft conviction was enough to exclude him? OR, is there MORE on his record and we just don't know about it. Surely they'd have to be expungements or some reporter some where would have had a scoop.

IMO.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Courtesy of The Argonaut, the University of Idaho student newspaper.

Design charette for Vandal Healing Garden to be held Friday

 

[schooling]

...

But, if like most LEA's, they ran an FBI background check, his expunged and/or juvenile records would still show up. Further, every police application I've ever seen asks for disclosure by the candidate of ANY criminal history and usually has language that goes, "Even if expunged, you must state it; if it is discovered that you checked the box for "No criminal history" but that you have criminal matters in your records, that will disqualify you from working for us." And they mean it - it's a permanent disqualification. So if he failed to disclose AND they found his theft misdemeanor, he was toast.
...

Also worth noting...use of any and all Class A substances, even once, usually disqualifies a candidate from consideration by MOST law enforcement agencies. Even local PD. And it's a question they ask of all applicants. We've all seen the reports about BK and his purported use of heroine.

The "honesty is the best policy" advice that all candidates are given by the overly nice interviewers is a catch 22.

I had a friend who was the prototypical CIA candidate. Top 14 law school, top of her class, exemplary track record as an ADA in one of the Northeast's largest counties. They interviewed neighbors in places she hadn't lived in decades. High School classmates she barely knew. Background check as clean as a whistle.

But she was rejected....

They asked her if she had ever been around any illegal substances. She told them that she had gone to a frat party on day 1 of her freshman year of college and blacked out. Was carried home. Suspected her drink was spiked. At that party there was a class A substance being done out in the open but she only drank alcohol (underaged drinking is not a barrier). They asked her if she did any of the substance. She responded that she was sure that she hadn't. They pointed out that since she had blacked out that she couldn't possibly be 100% sure. She responded that it had been almost 15 years but she was 99.9% positive that she hadn't.

That 0.01% doubt was enough for them to deny her.

Edited: to update the story and reflect that it was the CIA interviewer who made her doubtful of her memory and her experience. also to add that this was during the interview / lie detector test process.