4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #89

[Cool Cats]

Okay, so...what the heck?

They actually want a public hearing, in which autopsies will likely be discussed and pictures shown?

The public is not going to pick up on "Kohberger was just out driving around, he didn't do it" in the midst of all the sensational evidence that will almost certainly hit MSM as salacious evidence that BK is guilty. It's true that the Defense benefits by getting the State's strategy in advance of trial (and then making a zillion more motions and trying to exclude even more evidence).

IOW, a massive ploy to make the trial as far in the future as possible. The only reason I can think of for the Defense to want that is...they think him staying in Latah County Jail indefinitely is better than being on Death Row. From the point of view of an ethical defense attorney, that is of course a better outcome.

Speculative hopes and predictions ahead:

I'd love for the PH to start with a witness from WSU who had interacted with BK and noticed his Vans.

Then the FBI footprint expert, who in addition to confirming the brand, also says the foot shape and size (and toe sizes) are consistent with Kohberger. They must surely have GPS and better cell data by now, as well. And that second trip to 1122 King later that morning! THEN walk the Judge through what LE found when they entered the house, with all its horror. That same foot stepping in the blood.

Even without a witness to the brand of the shoe, the amount of info about foot, arch, heel and toe shape should be considerable. Of course, the State probably has a much better place to start, I'm just hoping for some great footprint analysis.

The fact that a white Elantra circles the house several times and disappears into a dark and camera-less area right next to 1122 and then later shows up again in broad daylight (carrying Kohberger's phone in it for these journeys). Yikes. I can just see the headlines.

And that's what the Defense wants??

YIKES again. IMO.

In cases I have followed I have never heard of bloody shoe prints giving out that much information. I don't see how all that could be deduced. I know you have mentioned in the past a slew of information shoe prints give out but I'm wondering how it is possible to get more than the foot size.

 

[Balthazar]

<snipped> Interesting, maybe BK blamed his failures on women?

One of Kohberger's former friends, JB, also spoke to Fox Nation about the case and the arrest, saying that Kohberger was often frustrated with women. JB also said that Kohberger expressed issues to him about his dating life and how he would be "ghosted a lot" by females.

Bryan Kohberger was moved away from female students, administrator reveals

We have to remember JB was friends with Kohberger in MIDDLE SCHOOL. Not sure how much actual "dating" goes on in Middle School?

 

[Boxer]

Hah, when I learn a new word I try and use it in a sentence that day. I guess I'll have to wait until someone sealions me.

Why. Honestly just why?

 

[Lilibet]

“Do you have a link?”

I can see we’ve been sealioned on the same threads!

 

[girlhasnoname]

In cases I have followed I have never heard of bloody shoe prints giving out that much information. I don't see how all that could be deduced. I know you have mentioned in the past a slew of information shoe prints give out but I'm wondering how it is possible to get more than the foot size.

If there was a tread 'wear' pattern available they could match to shoe would be great, but I bet those shoes are long gone. If they can find a pic or someone can testify to him owning a size 13 Vans would be a good piece of circumstantial evidence. Not a common size for men in the US.

MOO

 

[Sozo]

His middle school friend said they BOTH felt frustrated with the dating scene, with the ghosting phenomenon, not with women in general, big difference. Who would not be?
The question is how far did those frustrations go and what language was used? Was anything Bryan said violent or particularly worrying?
How many teenage boys (and grown men, for that matter) have this experience? Don’t women also have this experience?
We've all complained with our friends. Wish I had a dollar for all the "Ugh I hate men" conversations I've had over the years. I have a guy who struggles with matching on dating apps and experiencing romantic relationships. He complains about it all the time, but NEVER shows ill will, aggression or derogatory views towards women.
Being frustrated with dating is different to hating women and wanting to inflict pain and punish them. I haven't seen anything so far that confirms that he was a women hating incels the media so desperately portrays.
Many of the stories that attack BK's character are vague and lack context, a lot are not even first accounts. They hone in on words like frustrated and aggressive without giving examples of what actually was said or done. Since his arrest, the media has been clearly dishonest when reporting about BK, twisting words to fit to their narrative and give the articles sensationalist headlines to gain clicks.

 

[10ofRods]

In cases I have followed I have never heard of bloody shoe prints giving out that much information. I don't see how all that could be deduced. I know you have mentioned in the past a slew of information shoe prints give out but I'm wondering how it is possible to get more than the foot size.

Hmm. Well, we use the information in forensic anthropology all the time. I would assume the FBI would provide this analysis (but maybe not, who knows?)

We're talking close analysis of the latent or bloody footprint. It will show whether the person has a high arch or a medium one or a low one. It will also show the relative length of the toes (in most cases). This would be true whether the footprint was in water or blood or some other substance. We have deduced tons of information about ancient hominids due to their foot prints

Aside from size of foot, there's also weight. The heel typically hits first and its impression is related to weight. But there are strong correlations between footprint length and height.

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic and maybe such forensic techniques peaked back when I was just out of grad school (it's not necessarily easy to find a top notch footprint analyst).

Here's a link (but just scroll down and look at the pictures).

https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ar.b.20025

I'm sure you notice how the middle toes form a black block (and all pressed into the floor/medium). The length of the toes beyond the rest of the foot can be measured (indeed, down to very close measurements). Whether all this measurement took place in this case, I don't know.

Reveals whether the shoes are new, at the very least. But also reveals the way in which the foot proceeds in walking. Some of us lead with our big toes, some of us don't. Etc.

From the article above:

Footwear impressions reflect the real activities of individuals and can reveal patterns of activity in the order in which they occurred despite lack of other documentation of the crime scene. Impression evidence can be of two kinds, as can many other types of forensic evidence. The first is class, which refers to the general type of a footwear impression. Class characters include such information as the type of tread on the bottom of a piece of footwear. This is usually specific to a brand of manufacturer, and often to a single line or model of footgear. Other kinds of information that would fall into the category of class include the movement pattern of a person at a walk, trot, or run. Sizing of footwear also provides class information. These attributes have features in common with items from one or more groups, but do not necessarily characterize the activities of a specific individual or item.

The second kind of information is more specific and is often possible to discern in addition to class characteristics. Examples of specific identifiers for footgear would include unique wear patterns, cuts or defects in sole impressions, and the contents of scrapings from treads or other parts. When an individual item of footwear shows characteristics that are unique, it can be associated with the crime scene to the exclusion of all others of the same class, and this constitutes making a positive identification. In other words, this object and this one only was responsible for the marks at the crime scene, proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that it was present, as was the person wearing it at the time. This specific piece of evidence might become a key in determining what happened. In proceeding from analyzing the general to the specific, students learn the skills of deductive reasoning, and how to organize information into hierarchical patterns.

https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ar.b.20025

I can't call my position a "bias" because I have science on my side, but I'll admit that I am very fond of the forensic anthropology of footprints (I am not an expert in that little corner, by any means). The areas where it's been used most are larger urban areas - but the FBI was called in for a reason.

Are they brand new shoes? Older shoes? More weight on the ball of the foot (even if new shoes). Etc. Of course, defense will be fighting the inclusion of foot patterns post-arrest (but...hopefully, Idaho has achieved the usual - which would be more footprints, latent footprints, etc). Hopefully. Most footwear has characteristics almost as unique as fingerprints.

OTOH, if the Delphi case is an example of current LE "issues," then all bets off.

WHen there's a slew of circumstantial evidence (and the Defense realizes that), footprint analysis can fall by the wayside. Or appear late in trial. But, it can be a great opener for the State.

At any rate, if the State doesn't want to reveal much of its hand in a possible GJ or PH situation, footprints can be great evidence. And can convince a Judge, for sure.

IMO. Footprints provide height, weight and specific ID info (arch, toes, etc). Not as good as fingerprint, but very well studied and definitely can point to a particular defendant.

Here are some links:

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

 

[Ghostwheel]

In cases I have followed I have never heard of bloody shoe prints giving out that much information. I don't see how all that could be deduced. I know you have mentioned in the past a slew of information shoe prints give out but I'm wondering how it is possible to get more than the foot size.

I would think, and this is MOO, that you might be able to get a pattern wear that could be linked to the same pattern wear on another pair of shoes. When I was younger, I had such severe supination in my ankles that the wear pattern on all of my shoes was the same. When I broke my foot, that pattern changed, but now I have a different wear pattern that bridges across all my shoes. As an example, a size 13 Vans with a distinctive wear pattern on the heel or toe or side would be a specific piece of important circumstantial evidence. It would rule out anyone with a size 13 vans shoe that did NOT have that wear pattern. Or a stepping pattern (toe walker, heel strike). Those are some things I can think that might be possible to be deduced.

 

[Trebor5591]

Kohberger case: Judge hears arguments on cameras in courtroom | Vargas Reports​

Wow I cant believe that Elizabeth Vargas, the news anchor, stated she could not believe how the opinions of the families of the murder victims were not solicited by the court (regarding the issue of cameras in the courtroom)! Is she a neophyte in covering criminal trials? Because mu understanding is, that unless victim's family members are called as witnesses during a criminal trial, the only formal input they will have is after the trial is over, when victim impact statements are read before the court. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I would think, and this is MOO, that you might be able to get a pattern wear that could be linked to the same pattern wear on another pair of shoes. When I was younger, I had such severe supination in my ankles that the wear pattern on all of my shoes was the same. When I broke my foot, that pattern changed, but now I have a different wear pattern that bridges across all my shoes. As an example, a size 13 Vans with a distinctive wear pattern on the heel or toe or side would be a specific piece of important circumstantial evidence. It would rule out anyone with a size 13 vans shoe that did NOT have that wear pattern. Or a stepping pattern (toe walker, heel strike). Those are some things I can think that might be possible to be deduced.

Definitely the wear pattern would show up. My shoes wear like the way I walk with more pressure on the outside of my feet like this supination:



Walking on the inside of your feet is overpronation.

What is Foot Supination?

Foot supination is when your foot rolls outward toward the edges of your feet. Learn about the causes, symptoms, and treatment options for this condition today.

www.webmd.com

 

[10ofRods]

His middle school friend said they BOTH felt frustrated with the dating scene, with the ghosting phenomenon, not with women in general, big difference. Who would not be?
The question is how far did those frustrations go and what language was used? Was anything Bryan said violent or particularly worrying?
How many teenage boys (and grown men, for that matter) have this experience? Don’t women also have this experience?
We've all complained with our friends. Wish I had a dollar for all the "Ugh I hate men" conversations I've had over the years. I have a guy who struggles with matching on dating apps and experiencing romantic relationships. He complains about it all the time, but NEVER shows ill will, aggression or derogatory views towards women.
Being frustrated with dating is different to hating women and wanting to inflict pain and punish them. I haven't seen anything so far that confirms that he was a women hating incels the media so desperately portrays.
Many of the stories that attack BK's character are vague and lack context, a lot are not even first accounts. They hone in on words like frustrated and aggressive without giving examples of what actually was said or done. Since his arrest, the media has been clearly dishonest when reporting about BK, twisting words to fit to their narrative and give the articles sensationalist headlines to gain clicks.

I dunno. I have taught and done research among middle schoolers. LOTS of children are not interested in "dating." In middle school, nor in high school.

A lot of people would barely notice "ghosting". Only an eager dater would notice, IMO.

I teach young adults (18-27) and they seem NOT frustrated by the current "dating" scene. It's complex. Lots of books being written and some already in publication.

Not everyone has complained to their friends. I do think more women are criticising men than in earlier times - but neither I nor my daughters nor my students have had lots of "I hate men" conversations (I see that on reddit - but it's college women, and I do believe they are in a special circumstance - so perhaps pertinent to this case).

I agree that being frustrated with dating is one thing. But NORMAL people do not generalize to "I hate all men" or "I hate all women." IMO.

Of course, here in my world (lots and lots of students - L.A. area, some have dating apps, a lot do NOT), my anecdotal research (40 years of it), I am more interested in the actual case facts.

I'm too exhausted to go back over the "altercations" and the words of the women in his class - did you listen/watch about the woman who had to practically lock her bathroom door to be rid of him? Did you see that he was being ejected from his grad program (HUGE deal, all kinds of protections for him - and yet HR decided he had to go).

Let me ask you this. Do you think the murderer (whoever it is) LIKED women??

Incel? I have argued that he's something else. I haven't seen anyone here on WS mention incel-dom for ages.

So you think WSU fired him for no reason?

That's the bottom line. The complaining professor knew what was up. Look up that prof and his background. Read the memo from HR. SOMETHING involving aberrant behavior resulted in BK being EJECTED from being a TA (and therefore, being a grad student, really). It's EXCEEDINGLY rare for that to happen and every single thing has to be documented by multiple people.

I myself have no interest in MSM portrayals of Incels, I think BK falls into a different category (but still ideologically motivated).

There's a database on mass murder. Huge database. After looking at the findings there, it's difficult to come up with any theory that doesn't mention relationships between the sexes (or similar).

I think the Proud Boy ideology is closer to BK's- I am just guessing. I agree that "Stories" about BK in MSM might be misleading. But that's not at all what I'm paying attention to. And it's a wild guess - but I think I have some facts on my side.

If he did commit these murders (which I believe he did), ought we not be "attacking" his "character"?

Can you describe the character of someone who DID commit this crime (SOMEONE did it!) Was it a woman? Do you think that's a possibility? Do you think it was an escapee from a mental hospital? I mean, surely, we have to posit hypotheses about who in fact COULD do this mass murder. It's not just anyone.

If it's not BK who is it?Mass Killing Database

Here's the database:

Mass Killing Database

James Alan Fox, Lipman Family Professor of Criminology, Law, and Public Policy at Northeastern University, teamed up with USA TODAY and the Associated Press to launch the Mass Killings database – a public facing website that uses interactive graphics and visuals to break down data on incidences...

cssh.northeastern.edu

Where does he fit in?

And if he doesn't fit in, what are your views on who might actually kill four vibrant young people? (three of them women - is that insignificant? I think it's very significant).

IMO, there is no such thing as "random killing." There is always a build-up, a reason, even if it's only reasonable to the perpetrator.

But, I could be persuaded. Do you think this quadruple homicide was random?

(No disrespect intended - you're asking questions and I'm giving my own POV).

Not random. Psychologically motivated ( a human brain concocted these terrible murders and that brain is, in my view, not normal - I don't know much about "character" but I do think the personality and character arise in the brain.

This is a young man being fired for...malfeasance...at a job that most grad students can perform without issues (even the murderers and sociopaths that I've studied). If he has some kind of character disorder, I'm somewhat sympathetic. If he has a neurological disorder, even moreso. But that doesn't change his legal situation and those of us who want to write and speak about that should continue to do so.

IOW, I would expect this mass murderer to be atypical. Not normal. To have a bad "character." Very interested in what others would expect or posit.

IMO.

 

[HMSHood]

I looked more into Bryan Kohberger. Some people commented that his demeanor looks similar to Adam Lanza. They have a blank stare.

I have seen this blank stare in others.

Seung-Hui Cho

Casey Anthony

Lori Drew

Salvador Ramos

Beyond the blank stare. They have a cold demeanor, which suggests they are have seated resentment issues that build up over time. That suggests that Bryan Kohberger is not much different from the likes of Elliot Rodger, Jodi Arias, Adam Lanza, Eric Harris, Seung-Hui Cho, Casey Anthony, Lori Drew, Salvador Ramos, Gertrude Baniszewski, Yoselyn Ortega, Vester Flanagan, Panya Khamrab, Martin Bryant, Anders Breivik, Osama bin Laden, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong.

 

[10ofRods]

Definitely the wear pattern would show up. My shoes wear like the way I walk with more pressure on the outside of my feet like this supination:

View attachment 449602

Walking on the inside of your feet is overpronation.

What is Foot Supination?

Foot supination is when your foot rolls outward toward the edges of your feet. Learn about the causes, symptoms, and treatment options for this condition today.

www.webmd.com

Exactly. It's really easy to see pronation and over-pronation (and much else) from a single footprint. Of course, if there's lots of other more pointed evidence, it won't be needed. But if I had to clear the hurdle of a PH, I'd bring the footprint expert in.

Sex, height, weight, foot size, arch height, toe length, pronation. Does it match? Probable cause when combined with DNA on a knife sheath and the phone traveling from WSU to Moscow with the Elantra, then seen circling the neighborhood of 1122. And he second return (with a phone registered to BK) to 1122

If that's not enough for him to be hauled into court, I don't know what is.

 

[SkyBoomer]

I looked more into Bryan Kohberger. Some people commented that his demeanor looks similar to Adam Lanza. They have a blank stare.

I have seen this blank stare in others.

Seung-Hui Cho

Casey Anthony

Lori Drew

Salvador Ramos

Nothing is more “jump scare” than Adam Lanza. I know, “book, cover, blah blah” but if anyone EVER looked like a dude who should NOT have a gun, that’s him. I honestly could not have slept one wink in the house with him, son or no.

 

[10ofRods]

Definitely the wear pattern would show up. My shoes wear like the way I walk with more pressure on the outside of my feet like this supination:

View attachment 449602

Walking on the inside of your feet is overpronation.

What is Foot Supination?

Foot supination is when your foot rolls outward toward the edges of your feet. Learn about the causes, symptoms, and treatment options for this condition today.

www.webmd.com

Exactly. It's really easy to see pronation and over-pronation (and much else) from a single footprint.

 

[HMSHood]

Nothing is more “jump scare” than Adam Lanza. I know, “book, cover, blah blah” but if anyone EVER looked like a dude who should NOT have a gun, that’s him. I honestly could not have slept one wink in the house with him, son or no.

Adam Lanza was very troubled when I read about him. His anger was building up over time, like with Bryan Kohberger.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Let me ask you this. Do you think the murderer (whoever it is) LIKED women??

I felt a need to chime in. I can't say I think it mattered one way or the other. I think there was a SPECIFIC target and the others were collateral damage. I think the murderer did not like ONE SPECIFIC woman. Or maybe did and decided if they could not have her, no one could.

And if he doesn't fit in, what are your views on who might actually kill four vibrant young people? (three of them women - is that insignificant? I think it's very significant).

Again, take my thought above and then maybe it isn't significant. If the killer hated women so much, why not kill the other two roommates? I believe Xana and Ethan were just up and about at the wrong time. At least Xana was, and Ethan, collateral damage because she went back to the room or called from the room or was going from the bathroom to the room.

IMO, there is no such thing as "random killing." There is always a build-up, a reason, even if it's only reasonable to the perpetrator.

But, I could be persuaded. Do you think this quadruple homicide was random?

The quadrupleness of it may or may not have been random, but nor was it necessarily planned. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It could be a combination. One planned killing. One extra because there was an extra there and it was too late to go back. Another extra because she was up and moving and maybe saw and ran and made herself visible. Last killing because the runner went that way. It wasn't five or six because maybe the roommate in the room that saw the killer was not seen BY the killer. So one planned killing, one by proximity, two rather random because they were just seen and one not random because they were not seen.

IOW, I would expect this mass murderer to be atypical. Not normal. To have a bad "character." Very interested in what others would expect or posit.

IMO.

Not saying you are incorrect, but then how would one explain other murderers (like BTK) who present themselves as not having a bad "Character"? Both mass and serial murderer in that case.

I can see this mass murderer falling under many different categories, having a bad "Character" being one of the possibilities. But also possibly Invisible character, no character. Someone who thought they could commit the crime then fade back in to oblivion because they thought they were not noticeable.

I can make everything fit to BK, or I can make it fit someone else with a few turns. Do I think he went intending to kill everyone in the house? No. Do I think he was heck bent on killing 3 of 5 women? Still no. Do I think he had delusions of grandeur of being a mass murderer? Still no. I think there was one target. The rest was random based on bad circumstances for the rest of the non targets. JMO, as always.

 

[Lilibet]

In my memory, the murder that comes closest to the stabbing deaths of these four University of Idaho students is the July 1966 murder of eight student nurses in Chicago by Richard Speck. He entered the townhome they shared and calmly gathered them all into one room at gunpoint. Then he took each one to another room where he stabbed and/or strangled them one by one.

There was a survivor there too who was able to identify him. He was very disturbed (with brain injuries), alcohol abuse and a long criminal history. He had no connection to any of the victims, and his motive, other than anger about the unfairness of his life, was unknown.

BK comes from a much more privileged background, but there is clearly something “off” about him as there was with Speck. I doubt we will ever know BK’s motive unless he reveals it. As with Speck, there may well have been no connection to his victims other than knowing that multiple women lived there. Just like Speck, I believe he intended to kill them all.

Although Speck proclaimed his innocence…

At one point, he freely admits to committing the crime that made him infamous, saying he was high at the time but would have “done it sober.”

“Like I always felt,” Speck answers when asked by whoever is filming how he felt after the killings. “Had no feelings. If you’re asking if I felt sorry ... no.”

Asked why he murdered the women, Speck gave a chilling answer that Martin said “sickens me to this day.”

“It just wasn’t their night,” Speck said.

How Richard Speck's Rampage 50 Years Ago Changed a Nation

A drifter's killing of eight student nurses in Chicago "marked the end of an age of innocence," the man who prosecuted him says.

www.nbcnews.com

Richard Speck | Photos | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

Murderpedia, the free online encyclopedic dictionary of murderers. The largest database about serial killers, mass murderers and spree killers around the world

murderpedia.org

 

[DizzyB]

In my memory, the murder that comes closest to the stabbing deaths of these four University of Idaho students is the July 1966 murder of eight student nurses in Chicago by Richard Speck. He entered the townhome they shared and calmly gathered them all into one room at gunpoint. Then he took each one to another room where he stabbed and/or strangled them one by one.

There was a survivor there too who was able to identify him. He was very disturbed (with brain injuries), alcohol abuse and a long criminal history. He had no connection to any of the victims, and his motive, other than anger about the unfairness of his life, was unknown.

BK comes from a much more privileged background, but there is clearly something “off” about him as there was with Speck. I doubt we will ever know BK’s motive unless he reveals it. As with Speck, there may well have been no connection to his victims other than knowing that multiple women lived there. Just like Speck, I believe he intended to kill them all.

Although Speck proclaimed his innocence…

At one point, he freely admits to committing the crime that made him infamous, saying he was high at the time but would have “done it sober.”

“Like I always felt,” Speck answers when asked by whoever is filming how he felt after the killings. “Had no feelings. If you’re asking if I felt sorry ... no.”

Asked why he murdered the women, Speck gave a chilling answer that Martin said “sickens me to this day.”

“It just wasn’t their night,” Speck said.

How Richard Speck's Rampage 50 Years Ago Changed a Nation

A drifter's killing of eight student nurses in Chicago "marked the end of an age of innocence," the man who prosecuted him says.

www.nbcnews.com

View attachment 449661

Richard Speck | Photos | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

Murderpedia, the free online encyclopedic dictionary of murderers. The largest database about serial killers, mass murderers and spree killers around the world

murderpedia.org

What Richard Speck did colored my childhood. I was barely able to read but got my hands on newspaper accounts of the murders.
I want to delve into BK’s college years-we got a snippet in the online survey he posted. I would love to know about the discussions, any cases that were highlighted, BK’s opinions and if he seemed to focus on any particular crimes, motives, nature/nurture, etc. Basically I’d like to know if he was learning and considering exactly what he wanted his future to be. Can one look back and see the trajectory? Crime or criminology?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What Richard Speck did colored my childhood. I was barely able to read but got my hands on newspaper accounts of the murders.
I want to delve into BK’s college years-we got a snippet in the online survey he posted. I would love to know about the discussions, any cases that were highlighted, BK’s opinions and if he seemed to focus on any particular crimes, motives, nature/nurture, etc. Basically I’d like to know if he was learning and considering exactly what he wanted his future to be. Can one look back and see the trajectory? Crime or criminology?

It seems to be the case that BK was directing his training and education directly towards a career in law enforcement. If he had been roundly rejected by LE in his recent application, it could be the case that there was verbal feedback or informal feedback we don't know about where they gave him their reasoning. I wonder if some things from his past would permanently preclude him from a career in LE and he hadn't realised that until he made the application? I wonder if he had been told to re-direct his efforts as LE or Govt departments would never progress him? This could have been devastating information, in combination with being removed from his academic teaching placement.

JMO MOO speculation as we have not been informed of what the feedback or results of his application to LE was.