4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #89

[Baby baby Jane]

I think BK (Moscow murders arrestee) has the grand slam evidence of his DNA on the knife sheath where the strongest evidence against RA (Delphi murders) is him placing himself on the trail in the clothing of "Bridge Guy" that day and his confessions to his wife and another person (recorded phone calls).

I think at this point, BOTH individuals have a 90% chance of conviction based on what I know and what other evidence is likely to be submitted at trial (if they ever make it that far and don't end with a plea agreements).

There will be a lot of data from Idaho. Like Murdaugh they will produce minute by minute of phone on and off, car on doorbell, dash cam snd cctv cameras. His web browsing. BH in shops, online buying stuff. DNA. They will put him out there at 2am, then back in the morning. Photos of him in PA putting out the trash w latex gloves at neighbors house. His web searches in PA. Purchased coverall and missing. Shoes and foot print. Etc etc.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Does anyone here think there is not enough evidence to convict BK? I just find the discussion here vs Delphi to be so different. There seems to be more people on the Delphi case who think there isn't sufficient evidence despite multiple witnesses place RA at the scene, RA admitting to being at the scene, RA confessing to his wife and mother multiple times, etc. But I don't see that same doubt of guilt here. While I think BK is guilty, I don't think the evidence is as strong as in Delphi but see less discussion about that.

I actually find BK's evidence stronger than the Delphi case because of the DNA match, his car on surveillance videos, his phone CAST information, the fact that he had been by their home 12 times before the murder, the description of the murderer by DM matching BK overall.

I think they're both guilty and I think both of these Defendants will be eventually found guilty.

JMO

 

[Chloegirl]

Yes, that's a good point about the location of the murders. You would have to think that to kill in Idaho, which has the death penalty, those young people were specifically targeted.

Is it just me? I have thought that this feels like "suicide by cop" in sort of a different fashion. Get the justice system to do the work for him so he can enjoy the ride at least? IDK. And I don't want to be callous, but nothing explains why you would target a death penalty state in such an obvious way through a university adjacent to where you are studying. Maybe he doesn't want to live and he wants somebody else to make the decision for him. IDK. JMOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Is it just me? I have thought that this feels like "suicide by cop" in sort of a different fashion. Get the justice system to do the work for him so he can enjoy the ride at least? IDK. And I don't want to be callous, but nothing explains why you would target a death penalty state in such an obvious way through a university adjacent to where you are studying. Maybe he doesn't want to live and he wants somebody else to make the decision for him. IDK. JMOO

Well I know I keep referencing Elliot Rodger but that was the whole point of his plan. He wanted to take down the people who he felt had harmed / obstructed him the most in his short life (pretty tall slim white girls with blonde hair - very specific) before he died. He planned to take his own life as soon as the cops were coming. I guess his plan may have 'gone wrong' if the cops had somehow apprehended him alive and detained him.

I wonder if BK felt the same - at the end of his tether and having made a suicide plan then decided to take out his 'enemies' before he ultimately took his own life. He could have had a whole hit list of people. Maybe this was just the beginning?

The difference between ER and BK in my opinion is that ER was profoundly illogical in blaming young women for his problems and having read his autobiography / manifesto, it's very clear he made zero effort to try and improve his luck with women or adjust his unrealistic ideas or work towards goals - he just went in and in on himself and more bitter and alone, alienating everyone around him. Whereas BK has very obviously worked hard on himself to make adjustments, changes, and worked hard to improve his lot. If he's guilty of this crime and he did target one or more persons in a state of 'vengeance' then he must have been really hiding a whole load of seething rage.

I wonder if BK is the sort who has kept journals or blogs or diary notes of his thoughts? He strikes me as the sort who would. Did he even write down his plans and intentions?

 

[Helechawagirl]

Is it just me? I have thought that this feels like "suicide by cop" in sort of a different fashion. Get the justice system to do the work for him so he can enjoy the ride at least? IDK. And I don't want to be callous, but nothing explains why you would target a death penalty state in such an obvious way through a university adjacent to where you are studying. Maybe he doesn't want to live and he wants somebody else to make the decision for him. IDK. JMOO

I think that too—perhaps in his subconscious—but my readings gives me an image of someone without any hope. Kind of an “If I can pull this off and not get caught then everyone’s wrong about me; if I get caught, well my life was over anyway.” But this is all in my head. I haven’t met him so really just wandering in the dark. JMO

 

[SpiderFalcon]

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/101823-Defendants-9th-Supplemental-Request-for-Discovery.pdf

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/101823-Stipulated-Motion-to-File-Exh-H-Attached-to-Def-9th-SRDUS.pdf

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/101823-Order-to-File-Def-Exh-H-Attached-to-Def-9th-SRDUS.pdf

 

[schooling]

Is it just me? I have thought that this feels like "suicide by cop" in sort of a different fashion. Get the justice system to do the work for him so he can enjoy the ride at least? IDK. And I don't want to be callous, but nothing explains why you would target a death penalty state in such an obvious way through a university adjacent to where you are studying. Maybe he doesn't want to live and he wants somebody else to make the decision for him. IDK. JMOO

The FBI, scientists and psychologists have spent decades upon decades and tens of millions of dollars to create some rationale of why they make the decisions that they do.

The answer could simply be that there is no rational reason. Not one that our brains are capable of making sense out of anyway.

The moment BK has the urge that drives him to make the decision to take a knife to a strangers house I’m no longer capable of putting myself in his shoes. I am literally incapable of empathizing with him. I do not know what that urge feels like. I have never had it. My brain chemistry does not work that way.

Which makes every decision he made from that point on alien to me. No amount of contemplating will make my brain work like his brain does.

I’d imagine you and most folks in here are wired the same way as I am.

The only sense to make of it is that there were many before BK. Many just as smart if not smarter. Doctors, lawyers, dentists with everything to lose. And they still did it. Some over and over again.

BK is no more special than they are.

MOO

 

[Swansee]

Does anyone here have a good source for understanding how long touch dna can stay on brass specifically?
I've found several studies (links below) that talk about how brass and copper are the most difficult metals to recover touch dna from. However , I can't find any that discuss how long it stays on. There are studies comparing cotton and stainless steel, and stainless steel is excellent at keeping touch dna for a very long time. But due to the copper ions, touch dna on brass would degrade much faster than on steel. I can't find an answer as to how fast exactly.
Obviously the relevance of this is to try to understand what the realistic window is when BK could have left the touch DNA on the kabar button snap. The fact that the snap is brass, not aluminum or steel, is the challenging factor. Is it hours? Days? Weeks?
The shorter the window, the more difficult it would be for BK to explain away. However, if the window is too small and touch DNA on brass degrades within say, 12 hours, then there is a problem.
Brass issues:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Total-human-DNA-recovery-from-five-touched-surfaces-in-the-Darling-Building-University_fig1_355472578

And

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/304991.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjxvPWC7oOCAxXZQ_EDHcZPASMQFnoECCQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1oNwdUQaD1AbE_F-PyFaRK

Cotton and Stainless steel:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875176819301970

 

[Cool Cats]

Does anyone here have a good source for understanding how long touch dna can stay on brass specifically?
I've found several studies (links below) that talk about how brass and copper are the most difficult metals to recover touch dna from. However , I can't find any that discuss how long it stays on. There are studies comparing cotton and stainless steel, and stainless steel is excellent at keeping touch dna for a very long time. But due to the copper ions, touch dna on brass would degrade much faster than on steel. I can't find an answer as to how fast exactly.
Obviously the relevance of this is to try to understand what the realistic window is when BK could have left the touch DNA on the kabar button snap. The fact that the snap is brass, not aluminum or steel, is the challenging factor. Is it hours? Days? Weeks?
The shorter the window, the more difficult it would be for BK to explain away. However, if the window is too small and touch DNA on brass degrades within say, 12 hours, then there is a problem.
Brass issues:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Total-human-DNA-recovery-from-five-touched-surfaces-in-the-Darling-Building-University_fig1_355472578

And

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/304991.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjxvPWC7oOCAxXZQ_EDHcZPASMQFnoECCQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1oNwdUQaD1AbE_F-PyFaRK

Cotton and Stainless steel:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875176819301970

I don't get what your saying, we already know the DNA was not too degraded to get BK's profile.

It is BK's DNA underneath a victim in her bed regardless of when and how often he touched the snap which could be multiple times.

 

[Swansee]

Hi CoolCats. Sorry if my post wasn't clear. My question is about how fast touch DNA degrades on brass specifically. The underlying purpose of my question is to understand what the time window is for that button snap touch to have occurred. I am not disputing the lab results at all.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Hi CoolCats. Sorry if my post wasn't clear. My question is about how fast touch DNA degrades on brass specifically. The underlying purpose of my question is to understand what the time window is for that button snap touch to have occurred. I am not disputing the lab results at all.

If defense says BK “lost” that knife & sheath weeks before murder? or, if not purchased on Amazon could argue he tried it in a shop (and left his dna) but that still puts him shopping for a knife. Would dna be degraded by time of murders?
The next question question is - if BK lost it, or tried it in an shop, and some other person found it or bought it, and then murdered the 4 students, wouldn’t their dna also be on the sheath?

 

[Megnut]

If defense says BK “lost” that knife & sheath weeks before murder? or, if not purchased on Amazon could argue he tried it in a shop (and left his dna) but that still puts him shopping for a knife. Would dna be degraded by time of murders?
The next question question is - if BK lost it, or tried it in an shop, and some other person found it or bought it, and then murdered the 4 students, wouldn’t their dna also be on the sheath?

The touch DNA could've been retrieved from the snap itself, but me, I'm imagining the snap and energy other surface was wiped bare. I picture the touch DNA coming from the groove surrounding the snap, where it was trapped and preserved.

JMO

 

[Swansee]

@Baby baby Jane ,
Exactly. If touch DNA on brass can stay there for weeks, then BK could come up with all kinds of excuses . Oh that's the sheath I lost the month prior, or touched at a store or whatever. If it's 48 hours, then good luck to him finding an excuse.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

The touch DNA could've been retrieved from the snap itself, but me, I'm imagining the snap and energy other surface was wiped bare. I picture the touch DNA coming from the groove surrounding the snap, where it was trapped and preserved.

JMO

Agree, when pull snap up, there’s likely contact under edge that wouldn’t be remove if visible surface is wiped .

 

[girlhasnoname]

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/101823-Defendants-9th-Supplemental-Request-for-Discovery.pdf

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/101823-Stipulated-Motion-to-File-Exh-H-Attached-to-Def-9th-SRDUS.pdf

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/101823-Order-to-File-Def-Exh-H-Attached-to-Def-9th-SRDUS.pdf

Oh that AT loves to push some paper doesn't she? And all these exhibits under Seal?? Would love to know what they were.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Interesting.

That a reason to toss out his shower curtain could be to get rid of trace evidence after showering after he got home that night. Really makes sense.

I do not think he used the curtain to cover car seats, after all, he would likely need the curtain to take a super thorough shower.

I have wondered that too. If he specifically chose to go to WSU for his murder plans. It appears to be premeditated and the victims or victim, chosen. He could drive easily to a different State and different town plus be far from his home in Pennsylvania.

If he did message a victim on Instagram, I wonder if he did it before or after his move to Washington. I think it was close to November 2022, have to re-check.

I just watched a case on the ID channel where they finally nailed the guy by finding 2 microscopic (the size of a pin head) on his own shower curtain, one on the inside and one outside.

He had left no DNA at the scene of the crime, but those 2 tiny drops in his own home nailed his coffin shut. Made me feel certain that is why there was no shower curtain in BK's apt.

JMO

 

[Swansee]

@Megnut and @Baby baby Jane ,
I agree it may very well have been under the edge. That's still in contact with the brass though, so I would think the degrading effects of copper ions would apply if the touch DNA is sandwiched between the brass and the leather.
And although I've looked, I can't find any info about the persistence of touch DNA on leather either. Would be good to find a good sourceof information for both of these materials.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Or he doesn't value his own life all that much.

If he was on a mission of his own making on that awful day, he might not care deeply about whatever followed. Ultimate twisted bucket list.

He has a different moral code than we do. But I'll bet the house he has one. Rigid as hell too.

IMO most of his measures were to ensure he could complete the mission. Everything else, shoddy.

I think he suffers/enjoys a profound sense of numbness. Easily irritated, otherwise numb.

JMO

I think BK also suffers from delusions of grandeur, (not a diagnosis). He cannot understand why the woman aren't falling all over him.

He lost all that weight and got in shape, he's the smartest guy in the room (just ask him), he's not hideous looking on the outside. (To me he is, but that's because I see him on the inside JMO)

What he doesn't understand is that most women have an internal alarm system. Call it gut instinct, protection mode, whatever.

BK tripped those alarms in most women and even some men. He was confused and was very angry about it. Someone had to pay for that. I still believe we'll see he had SM or some kind of contact with one or more of the victims even if it was unknown by them. Like accepting a follower on Insta, seeing them in a restaurant, or even BK just seeing them on SM and locating their home and stalking.

He's a truly scary dude, I think he would have continued to murder if he hadn't gotten caught.

MOO

 

[Justice101]

The FBI, scientists and psychologists have spent decades upon decades and tens of millions of dollars to create some rationale of why they make the decisions that they do.

The answer could simply be that there is no rational reason. Not one that our brains are capable of making sense out of anyway.

The moment BK has the urge that drives him to make the decision to take a knife to a strangers house I’m no longer capable of putting myself in his shoes. I am literally incapable of empathizing with him. I do not know what that urge feels like. I have never had it. My brain chemistry does not work that way.

Which makes every decision he made from that point on alien to me. No amount of contemplating will make my brain work like his brain does.

I’d imagine you and most folks in here are wired the same way as I am.

The only sense to make of it is that there were many before BK. Many just as smart if not smarter. Doctors, lawyers, dentists with everything to lose. And they still did it. Some over and over again.

BK is no more special than they are.

MOO

Thank goodness 99.9% of us are like that.

Yes, I can certainly imagine shooting someone to defend myself or my family.... but to walk into a house and stab innocent strangers is beyond my comprehension.

I can't even accidentally dream of murdering someone.

 

[maskedwoman]

No confirmation that he went to King Rd after he left King Rd the first time.

Yes he went to back to Moscow but if he went back to King Rd there would be video evidence of his car, there is none.

There is video of his car at King Rd at 4:00 am so there should be video to show he went back later.

Could be seen either way.

Lucid to turn off phone for murders then turn back on, then to drive multiple dark country Rds with likely poor visibility, then shopping normally and wearing a "disguise" and keeping blood out of his car.

Or a drug-fueled mistake-laden murder spree - not lucid.

I don't think we know whether there is any video evidence of his return the next morning or not. We just know mention of it wasn't included in the PCA, along with alot of other things we wish we knew.