4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

[SpiderFalcon]

No it does not. Please see the study I linked above where pairs people were asked to shake hands and then one person of each pair was asked to handle a knife with the hand they shook hands with.
"In 85 percent of the cases, DNA from the person who did not directly touch the knife was transferred in sufficient quantity to produce a profile. In one-fifth of the samples, that person was identified as the main or only contributor of DNA to the potential weapon, despite never having touched it."
This is why touch DNA alone cannot be trusted in this or any other case. Touch DNA is becoming more and more controversial because too many innocent people have been convicted based on touch DNA, not just in the USA but overseas as well and I believe in the not so distant future, there will be new rules in courtrooms on touch DNA evidence which may require that touch DNA only be considered IF there is other evidence which proves the suspect was actually in the location.

The study you linked is from 2015. There have been major advances in the study of DNA in the last 8+ years, IMO.

 

[Justice101]

The thing that makes the DNA so impactful is where it was found. No one gets their DNA down in the crack of a snap if they barely touch it or touch someone else who then touches it. The location of the DNA is very important. That's why they are trying to get it thrown out. There is no reasonable explanation for his DNA being that far down in the crack of the snap other than it was his knife and he touched the snap repeatedly. The single source portion of it is important too. If it had been transferred there by someone who touched it and then touched the snap, that other person's DNA would be there too. But it's not. His DNA is the only one on the snap and the rest of the knife is wiped clean.

JMO

Good point! And you said it a lot better than I did.

 

[Balthazar]

The study you linked is from 2015. There have been major advances in the study of DNA in the last 8+ years, IMO.

Advances in the study of DNA have nothing to do with the outcome of this particular study. This was a physical study of how DNA is spread in the real world. Not a study of DNA. What they found then would be identical to what is found today unless our physical world has drastically changed, which is has not.

 

[Balthazar]

<snipped for focus>

How did that word ‘always’ slip into the discussion? I believe that people have made the point, over and over, that each case is different.

In this case, however, single-person DNA, on the snap of the sheath, indicates that the person did actually touch the snap of the sheath. (Compare it to the situation where I shake someone’s hand vigorously, and a few minutes later I open a door. Logically, there might be DNA on the door handle that is a mixture of my DNA and the person with whom I shook hands.

Different circumstances, different evidence.

MOO

You are asking the wrong person about "always". The right person would be the person I was replying to.

 

[Chloegirl]

I think that's correct and there's no issue with the sample pulled and that it actually matches BK. But there was no match in CODIS. So how did they come to test the family trash to find the match--that's where the defense is going. The investigative process. Was it through IGG where they see some wiggle room because it's new and mostly untested in the courts? Or was it through standard investigative techniques, like narrowing down a list of Elantra owners and comparing to cell data, etc.?

Thorough investigation would include both. Got a hit on one, went to the other for more ammunition before proceeding with reconnaissance in Pennsylvania for familial connection. They did their homework. I don't care what anybody says about IGG or how accepted it is. It's not the individual strength of the DNA touch data, it's the stacking of it to create the fuller picture.

I, for one, hope they have the man and that their investigation is buttoned up tightly. JMOO

 

[Justice101]

Thought this was an interesting article about familial DNA used to identify a perpetrator

Arizona Court of Appeals reverses lower court DNA decision in Allison Feldman murder case

 

[Valen2]

Bundy definitely chose his victims, at least at the beginning, based on specific criteria. At the end, when he was falling apart, it became much more based on chance. And even if he has a specific set of criteria, we as individuals can have no idea what they are and therefore have no way to protect ourselves from such a situation. That feeling of a lack of control is difficult to bear and might be the reason why people are searching for a reason or explanation or something they can do to avoid people like Bundy and BK. The truth that there may be nothing we can do is far more terrifying.

ETA: I meant to quote a post, but it got lost somehow.

 

[10ofRods]

Thought this was an interesting article about familial DNA used to identify a perpetrator

Arizona Court of Appeals reverses lower court DNA decision in Allison Feldman murder case

Great find! Upshot: higher court disagreed with lower court and reinstated the GG DNA.

 

[Balthazar]

Snipped by me--

The thing is, it is sufficient if the jury decides it's sufficient.

The defense will make sure the jury knows it is not sufficient. That is obvious.

 

[Boxer]

The defense will make sure the jury knows it is not sufficient. That is obvious.

And MOO the defenses spaghetti on wall arguments will not be sufficient to overcome the fact of his DNA was discovered in the unfastening mechanism of a fighting knife sheath which was found below the dead body of a victim killed by knife wounds.

The defense can say maybe BK was set up, or maybe he visited a knife store and handled a knife.
But that is where BARD comes in.
No alibi
Car ID
Phone off
Visiting crime scene following morning

 

[10ofRods]

I will never be able to believe that they could extra a full profile from the tiny groove around a snap if BK had not handled that sheath and used the snap multiple times.

Of course you're right about context, @Boxer. He has admitted to be driving around in Moscow at the time of the murders - and his phone went off line. The return to the crime scene is huge. Car seen circling the neighborhood in the same time frame.

And of course, analysis of footprints made in victims' blood which could only have been made at or near the time of the murders will provide more. And GPS has not been presented to the public. Nor internet searches/purchases.

He's definitely a better-than-average cleaner of things, though. I will give him that.

IMO

 

[Justice101]

And MOO the defenses spaghetti on wall arguments will not be sufficient to overcome the fact of his DNA was discovered in the unfastening mechanism of a fighting knife sheath which was found below the dead body of a victim killed by knife wounds.

The defense can say maybe BK was set up, or maybe he visited a knife store and handled a knife.
But that is where BARD comes in.
No alibi
Car ID
Phone off
Visiting crime scene following morning

Honestly, IMO, if the DNA identification of BK is allowed (which it will) and the other evidence the prosecution is likely to present.... this case at this point does not even look difficult for a conviction. His behavior driving around and in PA will look very damning.

His DNA matches that on the protected part of the knife sheath. Explain that away defense.

 

[Cool Cats]

The defense will make sure the jury knows it is not sufficient. That is obvious.

The defense isn't disputing the Idaho State Lab DNA results so we shouldn't be trying to dispute them on here.Very misleading.

5.37 Octillion times likely to be BK's DNA. TWENTY SEVEN ZEROS - 000000000000000000000000000

From @10ofRods:

No one is disputing the actual DNA labwork. The Prosecution did not run the DNA themselves, it was done at the Idaho State Police Lab. No one is claiming THEY did it wrong (especially as now there is a buccal swab and it matches Kohberger precisely, as it should).

There are now pages and pages of very negative hyper-focus on DNA that the defense does not even dispute.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest reflects that the state has resumed executions. One was supposed to be carried out tomorrow and is now stayed into 2024. The person pleaded guilty 41 years ago in 1982. Granted for part of that time I understand the state had difficulties getting the drugs but still, 41 years? This in itself must also be an extremely difficult thing for any victim's family to endure.

jmo

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest reflects that the state has resumed executions. One was supposed to be carried out tomorrow and is now stayed into 2024. The person pleaded guilty 41 years ago in 1982. Granted for part of that time I understand the state had difficulties getting the drugs but still, 41 years? This in itself must also be an extremely difficult thing for any victim's family to endure.

jmo

For those interested in the ongoing saga, the non-profit Idaho Capital Sun has covered this topic several times. Here’s a link to their latest about the acquisition of the chemicals:
Idaho has obtained lethal injection chemicals. But state law protects where they came from. - Idaho Capital Sun

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think that's correct and there's no issue with the sample pulled and that it actually matches BK. But there was no match in CODIS. So how did they come to test the family trash to find the match--that's where the defense is going. The investigative process. Was it through IGG where they see some wiggle room because it's new and mostly untested in the courts? Or was it through standard investigative techniques, like narrowing down a list of Elantra owners and comparing to cell data, etc.?

Why not both?

 

[wendy44]

Why not both?

From the point of view of the defense--if the standard investigative techniques led to the DNA match, there seems to be no avenue for getting that DNA thrown out. If the IGG led to the DNA match, they may think they can test the constitutionality of IGG or the methods for producing the match, and get it thrown out. So which came first is going to be very important to them.

 

[Bogbacal2]

We can “dip our toes” into this DNA all day but it won’t change the fact that they have this DNA. Now we have to wait and see what happens. I think the waiting is the hard part. 4 beautiful lives were brutally taken from this world and it makes no sense. It’s the not knowing-how much evidence LE has (I believe they have way more than we can imagine) and what they do have and don’t have/won’t allow, we hope will be enough put the correct monster behind bars/DP.

 

[10ofRods]

From the point of view of the defense--if the standard investigative techniques led to the DNA match, there seems to be no avenue for getting that DNA thrown out. If the IGG led to the DNA match, they may think they can test the constitutionality of IGG or the methods for producing the match, and get it thrown out. So which came first is going to be very important to them.

Whatever the stances of each set of lawyers in Idaho, these issues are not going to be resolved locally. Everyone can approach the Supreme Court, if they're persistent.

But, I suppose Bryan Kohberger will be very happy to know that he has launched a case (against The State) that makes it into history. If that's what happens.

(I think it will end up being a minor to moderately influential SCOTUS decision if it ever gets there - which it might).

Every criminologist wants to influence the system - that's why they become criminologists.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

From the point of view of the defense--if the standard investigative techniques led to the DNA match, there seems to be no avenue for getting that DNA thrown out. If the IGG led to the DNA match, they may think they can test the constitutionality of IGG or the methods for producing the match, and get it thrown out. So which came first is going to be very important to them.

But there is no definition of "standard" in U.S. jurisprudence. Each jurisdiction has its own precedents (unless SCOTUS has weighed in - rare).

I do think that the Defense holds out an idea that the local courts of appeal might take their side.

The problem is that logically and objectively: police, investigators and prosecutors have been allowed to use evidence with such strong correlations to reality...since forever? since we have records?

I suppose there could be a radical new interpretation of the Constitution. (I know you're not arguing that will happen - I'm just mulling over what a USA-changing thing that would be). I am sure I won't live to see this duked out - but each step along the way is deserving of attention - and questioning, if we do not wish our system to work the way it is.

IMO.