4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

[Nila Aella]

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest Page

• 11/08/2023 Stipulated Motion to File
• 11/08/2023 Defendants 10th Supplemental Request for Discovery
• 11/08/2023 Order to File
• 11/08/2023 Order Setting Deadline

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjKnM2LxbWCAxWKl2oFHZchAt4QFnoECBUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcoi.isc.idaho.gov%2F&usg=AOvVaw3QpkN0NQPCGFbgfzIE_S1f&opi=89978449

 

[katydid23]

Usually, when you shake hands, your fingertip pads are touching the other person's hand. AND it is even possible to be scratched accidentally by the nail(s) of someone you shook hands with. So, the DNA would definitely be in the right location to be transferred to the snap of the sheath. The study proved that touch DNA can be transferred from human skin to metal effectively and even with a result of a single contributor, not mixed, in some cases. I believe the snap would be made of metal in this case, not plastic, so, yes, this study would apply.

Even if I accept that argument, it won't help dismiss the importance of the DNA in this case because BK was already on LE's radar BEFORE they identified the DNA donor.

The Univ police officer picked his name off of the parking permits list and sent it to the detectives. What are the odds that a random handshake left that DNA at the crime scene and then his name came up again but for his car? I think it would take astronomical odds for that to happen to an innocent person. JMO

 

[10ofRods]

My view is that all of the calls for white Elantra owners to contact police were aimed at an increasingly smaller pool of white Elantra owners in the area. I believe that many did come forward (and probably without regard to year - as one worry a person would have would be that friends and neighbors are thinking they're a suspect - not many people can readily identify cars by years).

Certainly all the Elantras (and probably similar cars, perhaps Nissans and Kias and others) were looked at by campus police, who were glad to have a focus and a use for the parking permit system.

Little by little, they realized that some of these cars might belong to former students, who had moved away. Others belonged to people that profilers always look at (we know that most mass murderers are of a particular sex, and even ethnicity, and even...age). All of us who work in criminal settings (jails, state mental wards, police departments) feel a terrible sense of dread if any of the people on a short list of car owners/drivers are...related to LE in any way.

So yes, Kohberger was on their radar. Then, the lab finds enough DNA to get a full profile (single source!) But they don't have a last name. They get a list (likely 10-20 people of close relation) and there it is: the name of a person who has a parking permit at WSU and who arrived only recently and who, upon asking around, is having problems getting along with his criminology professors. I personally believe that some of the faculty at WSU spoke directly to LE before they had MK's trash.

Naturally, Pullman police would have immediately pondered the significance of a Kohberger showing up. I personally believe that Moscow PD tried to keep this on the down low - but probably already had a list of names of possible POI's from Pullman PD, including campus police.

IMO.

 

[jepop]

RSBM

The Univ police officer picked his name off of the parking permits list and sent it to the detectives. What are the odds that a random handshake left that DNA at the crime scene and then his name came up again but for his car? I think it would take astronomical odds for that to happen to an innocent person. JMO

RBBM
The experiement involved a a 15 minute continuous handshake followed by immediate deposit to the handle of a knife. And in these controlled and urealistic circumstances Moo the greater majority of the transferers also deposited their own dna to the handles. I think from memory in 20% of cases either the tranferees' dna was the primary profile (with traces of the transferers' profile detectable) or only the transferee's profile was present. Notably Imo, the study doesn't distinguish between these two categories of results. Moo

 

[katydid23]

RBBM
The experiement involved a a 15 minute continuous handshake followed by immediate deposit to the handle of a knife. And in these controlled and urealistic circumstances Moo the greater majority of the transferers also deposited their own dna to the handles. I think from memory in 20% of cases either the tranferees' dna was the primary profile (with traces of the transferers' profile detectable) or only the transferee's profile was present. Notably Imo, the study doesn't distinguish between these two categories of results. Moo

I'm trying hard to remember if I ever had a 15 minute continuous handshake.

 

[Chloegirl]

My view is that all of the calls for white Elantra owners to contact police were aimed at an increasingly smaller pool of white Elantra owners in the area. I believe that many did come forward (and probably without regard to year - as one worry a person would have would be that friends and neighbors are thinking they're a suspect - not many people can readily identify cars by years).

Certainly all the Elantras (and probably similar cars, perhaps Nissans and Kias and others) were looked at by campus police, who were glad to have a focus and a use for the parking permit system.

Little by little, they realized that some of these cars might belong to former students, who had moved away. Others belonged to people that profilers always look at (we know that most mass murderers are of a particular sex, and even ethnicity, and even...age). All of us who work in criminal settings (jails, state mental wards, police departments) feel a terrible sense of dread if any of the people on a short list of car owners/drivers are...related to LE in any way.

So yes, Kohberger was on their radar. Then, the lab finds enough DNA to get a full profile (single source!) But they don't have a last name. They get a list (likely 10-20 people of close relation) and there it is: the name of a person who has a parking permit at WSU and who arrived only recently and who, upon asking around, is having problems getting along with his criminology professors. I personally believe that some of the faculty at WSU spoke directly to LE before they had MK's trash.

Naturally, Pullman police would have immediately pondered the significance of a Kohberger showing up. I personally believe that Moscow PD tried to keep this on the down low - but probably already had a list of names of possible POI's from Pullman PD, including campus police.

IMO.

Yes, yes to all of that. But I have a distinct memory that when the parking pass or whatever was issued for BK that there was some vagueness to what was listed on his car, and that omission cause them to go to his apartment complex. It's been far too long for me to remember all the details but I will look for any report. That led me to believe he was trying to allude facts and WSU/Pullman PD. JMOO

 

[katydid23]

48 Hours on ID:
[random thoughts after watching it again tonight]

Defense expert says: there is no connection between BK and victims---no connection equals no motive
[That's Not True ^^^^^ ----plenty of killers have no prior connection to their victims]

Love the way Kaylee's big sister sleuthed that timeline right before the murders and sent the info to LE---even the phone number of the uber driver

Seeing this very early court appearance of BK is jarring compared to how he looks now after the defense helped lighten and normalise him with new thinned out haircut and highlights and new clothes

I think one of the biggest problems for the prosecution is the surviving roommates HUGE delay in calling 911
It leaves the witnesses open to be suspected of some kind of involvement according to some ...

"BK looks forward to being exonerated"----hearing that statement again is interesting because I've often thought he looks excited and is smirking in court. He seems to be enjoying this court battle somewhat and seems to feel it's going well, IMO


Kaylee's family say they looked at BK's possible social media the moment they learned his name. And they took screenshots of the IG they found. They showed it on the episode and if it was a fake one, the faker must have been very experienced and very fast to get such a built out IG in such a short time.

I'm pretty sure the G family had BK's name before most people did. And if they really did check it immediately, it's surprising that the guy had so many followers posted and so many following listed and so many pix and so many of his family members, etc.

For the first time ever, I am considering if he maybe did have a social media connection with them. JMO

 

[Swansee]

Do we have access to some kind of exhaustive list of all the digital warrants that the prosecution requested? I keep finding little bits here and there but I wish I could see a comprehensive list of all the companies whose records were requested.

In particular, I would love to know if there was a warrant for Twitch. I haven't seen that mentioned. We know the Grub truck broadcast live on Twitch, but honestly, who the heck watches that?
Surely they can get a record of whoever was watching the grubtruck feed that night. I wonder if BK was watching it...

 

[jepop]

Do we have access to some kind of exhaustive list of all the digital warrants that the prosecution requested? I keep finding little bits here and there but I wish I could see a comprehensive list of all the companies whose records were requested.

In particular, I would love to know if there was a warrant for Twitch. I haven't seen that mentioned. We know the Grub truck broadcast live on Twitch, but honestly, who the heck watches that?
Surely they can get a record of whoever was watching the grubtruck feed that night. I wonder if BK was watching it...

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest

Publicly available warrants (redacted) are all available above. Scroll down to Kohberger and you can find them listed interspersed with other court docs. You can look for Twitch (Court docs aren't in alphabetical order ofcourse so you'll need to scroll and search!)

ETA: If it's any help, I just quickly scrolled through and made a note of various en masse blocks of orders to seal and redact the warrants. Date wise from earliest to latest:
28th Feb
7th March
8th March
24th March
31st May
13th July
8th Sept

 

[Swansee]

Thank you @jepop !

 

[Justice101]

I'm trying hard to remember if I ever had a 15 minute continuous handshake.

Awkward turtle....

 

[pseudo_hum]

I'm trying hard to remember if I ever had a 15 minute continuous handshake.

IMO, male inmates consider that a conjugal visit.

 

[Balthazar]

The very specific and controlled conditions of that study (this study has been raised on these threads before) may and Imo probably will prove not relevant/unsupported as far as the dna evidence in this case goes- Moo. It references dna transfer to a knife handle not a snap button for starters. But picture this - the D speculating probability wise with no evidence (unless BK gets up on the stand) that BK had some sort of 15 minute continuous and direct hand contact with an unknown individual who then immediately opened the clasp of the sheath with the palm of their hand (?) and deposited BK's dna on the button. Do people open knife sheathes with their palms generally? A prosecution expert will counter that study's applicability with relevant ease if it is ever brought into evidence via an expert by the D Imo. Moo

This morning I ran across this study which explains the innocent transfer of DNA to knives and the clip-seal plastic bags found in crime scenes:

"Forensic laboratories often sample weapons and clip-seal plastic bags (CSPB) used to package illicit material for the purpose of identifying the handler(s). However, there may be other explanations as to how a person’s DNA was transferred to such items. This may include an individual storing the item among their personal belongings for somebody else or the item being stored among their belongings without their knowledge. Here we investigate the direct transfer of DNA to knives and CSPB during handling and explore two feasible alternative explanations related to the indirect transfer of DNA to these items in residential environments."

"Conclusion
DNA transfer from kitchen benches, dining tables and coffee tables, the inside of drawers, and from the hands of participants to CSPB and knives was observed for each of the three contact methods used in this study. Transfer was greater where contact was direct (handling), or where the item was stored for a longer duration (active), compared to when contact was passive and for a brief duration. The outcomes of this study also expand on the limited data pertaining to different contact activities."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497323000637

So, clearly innocent transfer IS a thing in crime scenes and it doesn't take a 15 minute handshake or even holding the weapon (or sheath) for this to occur.

 

[Balthazar]

Even if I accept that argument, it won't help dismiss the importance of the DNA in this case because BK was already on LE's radar BEFORE they identified the DNA donor.

The Univ police officer picked his name off of the parking permits list and sent it to the detectives. What are the odds that a random handshake left that DNA at the crime scene and then his name came up again but for his car? I think it would take astronomical odds for that to happen to an innocent person. JMO

In fact, the odds are not astronomical at all and it wouldn't even take a handshake for the innocent transfer of DNA to the knife sheath to take place. Please read this study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497323000637

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

IMO, male inmates consider that a conjugal visit.

Oh, Lord! Now that actually caught me mid sip and got coffee out my nose. Still laughing.

 

[Balthazar]

My view is that all of the calls for white Elantra owners to contact police were aimed at an increasingly smaller pool of white Elantra owners in the area. I believe that many did come forward (and probably without regard to year - as one worry a person would have would be that friends and neighbors are thinking they're a suspect - not many people can readily identify cars by years).

Certainly all the Elantras (and probably similar cars, perhaps Nissans and Kias and others) were looked at by campus police, who were glad to have a focus and a use for the parking permit system.

Little by little, they realized that some of these cars might belong to former students, who had moved away. Others belonged to people that profilers always look at (we know that most mass murderers are of a particular sex, and even ethnicity, and even...age). All of us who work in criminal settings (jails, state mental wards, police departments) feel a terrible sense of dread if any of the people on a short list of car owners/drivers are...related to LE in any way.

So yes, Kohberger was on their radar. Then, the lab finds enough DNA to get a full profile (single source!) But they don't have a last name. They get a list (likely 10-20 people of close relation) and there it is: the name of a person who has a parking permit at WSU and who arrived only recently and who, upon asking around, is having problems getting along with his criminology professors. I personally believe that some of the faculty at WSU spoke directly to LE before they had MK's trash.

Naturally, Pullman police would have immediately pondered the significance of a Kohberger showing up. I personally believe that Moscow PD tried to keep this on the down low - but probably already had a list of names of possible POI's from Pullman PD, including campus police.

IMO.

How many human cells are needed to do STR Analysis on a single source DNA sample?

 

[katydid23]

In fact, the odds are not astronomical at all and it wouldn't even take a handshake for the innocent transfer of DNA to the knife sheath to take place. Please read this study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497323000637

It would be astronomical for an innocent man, having no involvement with the murders to have all these randomly mistaken connections:


What are the odds that he shook hands with the murderer so his DNA ended up under a dead body ----but he was also unlucky enough to coincidentally drive his car to the crime scene at 4 am and leave quickly, on camera, right after a masked man fitting his general description was seen leaving?

 

[katydid23]

This morning I ran across this study which explains the innocent transfer of DNA to knives and the clip-seal plastic bags found in crime scenes:

"Forensic laboratories often sample weapons and clip-seal plastic bags (CSPB) used to package illicit material for the purpose of identifying the handler(s). However, there may be other explanations as to how a person’s DNA was transferred to such items. This may include an individual storing the item among their personal belongings for somebody else or the item being stored among their belongings without their knowledge.

So is the potential theory here that BK stored the knife sheath for someone or someone stored it with him without his knowledge?

So he knows the killer somehow?

Here we investigate the direct transfer of DNA to knives and CSPB during handling and explore two feasible alternative explanations related to the indirect transfer of DNA to these items in residential environments."

"Conclusion
DNA transfer from kitchen benches, dining tables and coffee tables, the inside of drawers, and from the hands of participants to CSPB and knives was observed for each of the three contact methods used in this study. Transfer was greater where contact was direct (handling), or where the item was stored for a longer duration (active), compared to when contact was passive and for a brief duration. The outcomes of this study also expand on the limited data pertaining to different contact activities."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497323000637

So, clearly innocent transfer IS a thing in crime scenes and it doesn't take a 15 minute handshake or even holding the weapon (or sheath) for this to occur.

BK lived alone in a small place. Wouldn't he notice if someone stashed a large knife and sheath somewhere where he'd handle it occasionally?

 

[10ofRods]

I'm trying hard to remember if I ever had a 15 minute continuous handshake.

Which is why, IMO, this type of experiment is for purely academic purposes. It was not a forensic study. Nor even an applied study. No one shakes hands for 15 minutes.

Further, of course, such friction on the palms is guaranteed to produce more epithelial cells from which DNA can be analyzed.

Fingertips and palms shed lots of cells, so that we can maintain our exquisite sensitivity in our hands (compared to other primates - all of whom have hands, but none have skin on their hands as delicate as we do).

Anyway, fingers by their very nature (strength is one factor) do leave more DNA on things (doorknobs, etc).

Forensically, shared doorknob data is fairly problematic in forensics, as it is assumed that unless a person lives alone and is the only person touching their knob, it's going to be an admixture. SOME value can be gotten in terms of crime scene analysis, as the major users of the door knob will be known from the study, but as the quoted study shows, anyone shaking hands for 15 minutes before touching the knob will leave DNA from the other person, with whom they shook hands.

Naturally, such a thing never happens in the real world (which is why it is not a forensic study nor an applied study). However, it is useful in showing that if we were to shake hands for 15 minutes, the other person's DNA would be detectable on a door knob newly touched by one of the people. Is the DNA on the knob 50/50 (the study didn't attempt to quantify that - but other studies have, in more naturalistic/applied studies).

That's why the Chief of Police in Moscow was smiling so broadly that day that we later learned was when the DNA results came back from ISL.

SINGLE SOURCE. Only one person had repeatedly used the snap, leaving several layers of DNA in the snap groove. It was not an infinite amount of DNA. I suspect they could probably run one more test - and that they kept at least one swab from the sequencer, so that the Defense could use it if necessary.

Interestingly, the Defense is NOT asking for re-analysis of the sheath. Hmmm.

I bet most of you can guess why not.

IMO.

 

[Balthazar]

It would be astronomical for an innocent man, having no involvement with the murders to have all these randomly mistaken connections:


What are the odds that he shook hands with the murderer so his DNA ended up under a dead body ----but he was also unlucky enough to coincidentally drive his car to the crime scene at 4 am and leave quickly, on camera, right after a masked man fitting his general description was seen leaving?

Again you need to read that study. <modsnip - link does not support this claim> It might surprise you to know that touch DNA was actually discovered in Australia by Alec Jeffries in 1987. And here the Australians are on the forefront of recognizing Touch DNA is not trustworthy without some other clear evidence that places the person IN the crime scene.