4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

[Balthazar]

My view is that all of the calls for white Elantra owners to contact police were aimed at an increasingly smaller pool of white Elantra owners in the area. I believe that many did come forward (and probably without regard to year - as one worry a person would have would be that friends and neighbors are thinking they're a suspect - not many people can readily identify cars by years).

Certainly all the Elantras (and probably similar cars, perhaps Nissans and Kias and others) were looked at by campus police, who were glad to have a focus and a use for the parking permit system.

Little by little, they realized that some of these cars might belong to former students, who had moved away. Others belonged to people that profilers always look at (we know that most mass murderers are of a particular sex, and even ethnicity, and even...age). All of us who work in criminal settings (jails, state mental wards, police departments) feel a terrible sense of dread if any of the people on a short list of car owners/drivers are...related to LE in any way.

So yes, Kohberger was on their radar. Then, the lab finds enough DNA to get a full profile (single source!) But they don't have a last name. They get a list (likely 10-20 people of close relation) and there it is: the name of a person who has a parking permit at WSU and who arrived only recently and who, upon asking around, is having problems getting along with his criminology professors. I personally believe that some of the faculty at WSU spoke directly to LE before they had MK's trash.

Naturally, Pullman police would have immediately pondered the significance of a Kohberger showing up. I personally believe that Moscow PD tried to keep this on the down low - but probably already had a list of names of possible POI's from Pullman PD, including campus police.

IMO.

Could you please tell me how many cells are needed for STR Analysis?

 

[Balthazar]

So is the potential theory here that BK stored the knife sheath for someone or someone stored it with him without his knowledge?

So he knows the killer somehow?


BK lived alone in a small place. Wouldn't he notice if someone stashed a large knife and sheath somewhere where he'd handle it occasionally?

No.

 

[katydid23]

Please let me know what evidence puts him at the crime scene? I have yet to read of any. It is definitely not in the PCA.

I think the PCA was from the end of last December. I have to imagine that the detectives and the FBI forensics team have accumulated more evidence in the past 10 months.

BK's phone went off when he was in Pullman WA at 2:47am and didn't come back on until 4:48am, so his phone doesn't place him at 1122 King Rd at all.

There are things that can be done even if the phone is off. We don't even know if it was on airplane mode or turned off. We have to wait and see if they tried any of those things to get data.
But we do know the phone traveled with his car the entire time.

There is no proof whatsoever that was his car in Moscow, either.

Yah there is. Maybe not written in the PCA but that's old news.

6 months after the PCA was written, this is what was turned over to the defense in discovery:
The prosecution tells the defense in the filing they have turned over 10,000 pages of reports and written materials, 10,200 photographs, 9,200 tips and 51 terabytes of video, audio and digital materials.

So with 10,000 pages of written reports, I'd have to imagine there'd be more info about the cell phone and the car's whereabouts.

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/special-reports/moscow-murders/idaho-murder-university-bryan-kohberger-discovery/277-015209e1-908f-4bab-b98f-5a22bd09146

As far as the alibi goes, BK said through his attorney that he was out driving that night but was nowhere near 1122 King Rd. His attorney said discovery in regards to his alibi would be provided later and other discovery may come from the prosecution witnesses.

Waiting to hear how their prosecution witnesses will be turned into alibi witnesses.

Nothing in the PCA convinces me he was at 1122 King Rd or even in Moscow that night.

BUT

Surely LE has found more evidence than what is in the PCA and we just don't know what yet. What concerns me is that 6 of the Grand Jurors had more questions and probably would not have voted to indict him except that they were told the standard was probable cause. So, that tells me the evidence that was presented to the Grand Jury was not the slam dunk many here are expecting. This does not bode well for the prosecution case at trial, especially in a death penalty case.

The Grand Jury does not require Beyond A Reasonable Doubt. No surprise that 6 of the 24 wanted BARD because jurors like to be sure.

The trial will be way more complex and data driven than the GJ was.

So, once this goes to trial, I'm looking for something from the prosecution that will conclusively place BK INSIDE that house -

I think the single source DNA will go a long way towards putting him in the house, especially where it was found.

such as a photo lineup with DM where LE showed her a number of men with a mask on and she picked BK out of the photo line up BEFORE he was arrested or anyone had ever heard of him except LE.

I highly doubt that could have happened. He was wearing a mask on his face!

That would make me believe he was in that house.

But what about the mask?

Some other things would be his fingerprints in the house, if either of the shoe prints were his - even the one outside behind that old sofa on the back patio as BK had absolutely no business being on that property since he doesn't know those women.

I'd like to see fingerprints too---but I think we both know he was wearing gloves.

Anything that could conclusively tie him to that property would be acceptable.

The DNA is a big clue. And the video of his car, with no front plate, doing a 3 point turn and stopping right next to the house is another.

Also, if LE has something that showed BK definitely knew these women existed. For now, we don't have any of that.

I don't think it matters. Many home invasions involve strangers. They often pick their victims out right before the crime. Maybe he saw them walking out of the bar, or saw them on the food truck stream?

So I remain patiently waiting for the trial to hear and see all of the evidence so I can finally decide if he is guilty or innocent.

Me too. Although I am heavily leaning towards guilt at this time, I will listen intently to the defense case to see if it nullifies my concerns.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

A bunch of posts were removed as "Thread cleanup" due to discussion about a study that did not appear to be linked. The link was later found further back in the discussion, so that discussion has been reinstated.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Going to say this once.

The next member to mock or ridicule another poster's input, speculative opinion or theory will be banned for minimum 1 week.

If you can't post respectfully without belittling another member, don't post.

 

[Boxer]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Please let me know what evidence puts him at the crime scene? I have yet to read of any. It is definitely not in the PCA.

BK's phone went off when he was in Pullman WA at 2:47am and didn't come back on until 4:48am, so his phone doesn't place him at 1122 King Rd at all.

There is no proof whatsoever that was his car in Moscow, either.

As far as the alibi goes, BK said through his attorney that he was out driving that night but was nowhere near 1122 King Rd. His attorney said discovery in regards to his alibi would be provided later and other discovery may come from the prosecution witnesses.

Nothing in the PCA convinces me he was at 1122 King Rd or even in Moscow that night.

BUT

Surely LE has found more evidence than what is in the PCA and we just don't know what yet. What concerns me is that 6 of the Grand Jurors had more questions and probably would not have voted to indict him except that they were told the standard was probable cause. So, that tells me the evidence that was presented to the Grand Jury was not the slam dunk many here are expecting. This does not bode well for the prosecution case at trial, especially in a death penalty case.

So, once this goes to trial, I'm looking for something from the prosecution that will conclusively place BK INSIDE that house - such as a photo lineup with DM where LE showed her a number of men with a mask on and she picked BK out of the photo line up BEFORE he was arrested or anyone had ever heard of him except LE. That would make me believe he was in that house. Some other things would be his fingerprints in the house, if either of the shoe prints were his - even the one outside behind that old sofa on the back patio as BK had absolutely no business being on that property since he doesn't know those women. Anything that could conclusively tie him to that property would be acceptable. Also, if LE has something that showed BK definitely knew these women existed. For now, we don't have any of that. So I remain patiently waiting for the trial to hear and see all of the evidence so I can finally decide if he is guilty or innocent.

The criteria is Beyond a Reasonable Doubt not a video of the crime

DNA on the weapon's sheath found benesth a victim
No Alibi
Car ID
Phone off during crime window
Witness statement did not exclude him
Going to the crime scene the next morning

 

[Swansee]

Could you please tell me how many cells are needed for STR Analysis?

I watched a Fox documentary called Bloodline: DNA Detectives and the Moscow Murders. They interviewed someone at Verogen labs, who states that with the current advancements in technology, that analysis can be done with as little as 5 cells.

 

[Justice101]

The criteria is Beyond a Reasonable Doubt not a video of the crime

DNA on the weapon's sheath found benesth a victim
No Alibi
Car ID
Phone off during crime window
Witness statement did not exclude him
Going to the crime scene the next morning

Agree. The car IDs will probably not be from the victims... just a guess. But then again, there is a gag order so who knows.

There is rarely 100.00000% proof that someone did a murder. DNA became admissible in court until 1986.. So that is over 200 years of US history previously when hundreds of thousands of murder trials where a defendant was found guilty without DNA or without a video of the crime which is a much more recent inclusion.

THE PROSECUTION IN A CRIMINAL CASE BEARS THE BURDEN OF PROVING TO THE JURY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT ALL OF THE ELEMENTS NECESSARY TO ESTABLISH THE GUILT OF THE DEFENDANT.

IMO, even though BK's lawyer seems to be very sharp and is working very hard for her client, this case is going to be pretty easy to establish no reasonable doubt BK was the killer.

 

[Swansee]

BK has a white Elantra registered to himself, he admits to driving around that night, and the next morning we see a continuation, this time captured on cctv exiting the vehicle...

Wait, what? Is it possible I missed that? Or are you just speculating? Sorry but it isn't clear.
I never heard there was any cctv footage of BK the morning after?

 

[Justice101]

Wait, what? Is it possible I missed that? Or are you just speculating? Sorry but it isn't clear.
I never heard there was any cctv footage of BK the morning after?

I think the member is talking about a white Elantra driving back into his apartment complex on the same early morning like at 5;30 am or so.

 

[TL4S]

Wait, what? Is it possible I missed that? Or are you just speculating? Sorry but it isn't clear.
I never heard there was any cctv footage of BK the morning after?

Phone records show him in the area around 9am the next morning, iirc.

 

[Swansee]

Yes, @Justice101 , the part about a white Elantra consistent with his seen driving back into his neighborhood is definitely in the PCA.
However I never saw anything about cctv footage of BK "exiting the vehicle" anywhere.

 

[10ofRods]

Wait, what? Is it possible I missed that? Or are you just speculating? Sorry but it isn't clear.
I never heard there was any cctv footage of BK the morning after?

At the Albertson's, while he was making the same southern loop/long way drive along rural roads, back to Pullman. He stops in Clarkston, I believe, and is recorded on cctv at Albertson's. I don't know what the footage actually shows - but there's definitely cell phone data showing him arrive at the Albertson's, then there's cctv of him inside the store, then his car moves across the street and parks near the Snake River.

A worker at a coffee kiosk across from Albertson's says he pulled into their drive-through (I believe they might have cctv - but the worker says that BK did not order anything, just pulled through their drive-through).

Kohberger was allegedly in Clarkston hours after four students were killed

The man accused of slaughtering four University of Idaho students was in Clarkston on the day of the murders, according to the affidavit released Thursday.

www.lmtribune.com

Naturally, this all has to make it into evidence - but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't.

 

[Swansee]

Phone records show him in the area around 9am the next morning, iirc.

I know. I am specifically questioning the source for him being seen "exiting the vihicle", because I have never heard of that.

 

[iamshadow21]

I think the member is talking about a white Elantra driving back into his apartment complex on the same early morning like at 5;30 am or so.

There's no mention in the PCA of BK physically being on camera at that time. It talks about the video of the Elantra and his phone traveling together back to his apartment at around 5:30am.

https://www.bostonherald.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/idaho-murders-court-document-unsealed.pdf

 

[10ofRods]

I know. I am specifically questioning the source for him being seen "exiting the vihicle", because I have never heard of that.

I think it may have been reported that way at least once, but the PCA doesn't include it.

It's easy to imagine though since, in order to go into the Albertson's and be caught on CCTV shopping, he had to exit his car.

Many of us have tried to imagine these events, and it's easy to add a detail to the story - since no one has actually seen any of this cctv. But we know cctv exists of the Albertson's visit (alleged in the PCA, hard to believe that footage doesn't exist). And then there's the eye witness at the coffee kiosk who sees him back in his car just minutes after the Albertson's visit, across the street.

So at around 9 am on the morning of the murders, he drives back to 1122 King Road, the scene of the crime. Where he was just hours before (during the time of the murders). He then drives *again* in the long route back to Pullman, this time stopping at Albertson's in Clarkston (car, phone and BK travel together - establishing that it is indeed him and not some conspirator or car thief - because he goes into the Albertson's and is caught on video just after parking).

I've often wondered if one reason he went back to the crime scene at 1122 was to look for the sheath. And perhaps he had used that longer trip through Blaine, Clarkston and near Lewiston to dispose of evidence - LE will know whether he stopped in other places besides the ones listed in the PCA. They wouldn't put that in the PCA, imo, because that might have resulted in some people visiting those spots and looking for the evidence.

I can just picture that jailhouse conversation between AT and BK, when she tells him all the state's digital evidence of his phone (and car) travel, with the phone and the car traveling together. The alibi? "I was out driving around that night."

IMO

 

[jepop]

Wait, what? Is it possible I missed that? Or are you just speculating? Sorry but it isn't clear.
I never heard there was any cctv footage of BK the morning after?

Albertson's in Clarkson probably. Early afternoon from memory. BK, vehicle and phone all in one place. Re-visiting near the (still undetected) crime scene was for c 10 mins - per pca that was corroborated by phone pings at around 9.30am - the phone left his place arrived near/at King Road ten mins later, hung for 10 mins then returned to his place in Pullman.. Clarkson then provided hard evidence of BK, phone and suspect vehicle all in the same location - BK captured on video in carpark and then in the aisles of Albertson's itself. Ref PCA.

EBM: Changed Lewiston to Clarkson -but my memory may be failing me - anyways PCA has the details

 

[Swansee]

Ah, I see. Thanks @10ofRods . This shows he went to an Albertsons between 12:46 and 1:04 pm on the 13th, which is unrelated to committing a quadruple homicide nine hours prior.

Which brings me to something else.

I'm sorry because it's going to be a long post, but I want to comment on what @Boxer says earlier (thank you @Boxer , that list really got me thinking!).
I'm not sure we've seen any solid evidence he returned to the scene of the crime the next morning. The cell phone pings aren't precise enough to guarantee that ever happened. The white sedans captured behind the house by MSM cameras on the 13th were in the afternoon, and were never claimed as being BK's car by LE.
In fact, that afternoon is when we have the weirdest of his pings, with LE saying he pinged but they don't think he actually was in the area, which is something I am sure the defense will jump on to cast doubt about the previous pings.
That's why I really hope there is GPS data. Even accelerometer data could be useful to corroborate the alleged route.
The same goes for the Elantra footage, and this ties back to what @Megnut says. Do all the images along his alleged route show plate detail, or a missing plate, or the driver? We don't know. If they don't, the defense will use that to say that's just an elantra and all the footage is not necessarily of his, and as we know there are thousands of elantras in the area.
IMO, the problem with all the points listed by @Boxer is that (based on what little we know now), although at first, the totality seems solid, each one can and will be taken apart by the defense, and I don't know how much will remain after that.
DNA would be the biggest hurdle, but they don't seem to be shying away from trying to deconstruct that at all.
I hope this all doesn't come across as pro-BK. I just think a lot of what we've been told is not as solid as I'd like, especially if he's guilty.
The media has played a huge part in overstating what is certain and downplaying what isn't, just so they could get some "breaking news", and in the process I'm afraid we may have gained an overly confident impression of how strong the case against him is.
Remember when the talking heads assured us his car would be a treasure trove of evidence, but there was nothing there? Or that whole debacle around the ID cards in a glove in a box, which a mainstream media "source" claimed belonged to the victims' when there was absolutely nothing to back that up? And let's not forget the "Pappa Rodgers" nonsense... Much ado about nothing.
So now, the media is telling us an Amazon search warrant for sure means he bought the knife on Amazon, and a Dickies tag is definitely for a Michael Myers outfit, but perhaps it's more of the same.
Again, to clarify, I think BK's probably guilty, what I am questioning is whether the evidence will stand up to the defense's counterpoints. I really hope the prosecution has a big reveal we just haven't been privy to.
MOO, JMO, etc.

 

[Megnut]

Wait, what? Is it possible I missed that? Or are you just speculating? Sorry but it isn't clear.
I never heard there was any cctv footage of BK the morning after?

At the Albertson's, while he was making the same southern loop/long way drive along rural roads, back to Pullman. He stops in Clarkston, I believe, and is recorded on cctv at Albertson's. I don't know what the footage actually shows - but there's definitely cell phone data showing him arrive at the Albertson's, then there's cctv of him inside the store, then his car moves across the street and parks near the Snake River.

A worker at a coffee kiosk across from Albertson's says he pulled into their drive-through (I believe they might have cctv - but the worker says that BK did not order anything, just pulled through their drive-through).

Kohberger was allegedly in Clarkston hours after four students were killed

The man accused of slaughtering four University of Idaho students was in Clarkston on the day of the murders, according to the affidavit released Thursday.

www.lmtribune.com

Naturally, this all has to make it into evidence - but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't.

This is my reference, Albertson's. I guess maybe it's an association. The phone, the Elantra, the store cctv.

JMO

 

[Boxer]

Ah, I see. Thanks @10ofRods . This shows he went to an Albertsons between 12:46 and 1:04 pm on the 13th, which is unrelated to committing a quadruple homicide nine hours prior.

Which brings me to something else.

I'm sorry because it's going to be a long post, but I want to comment on what @Boxer says earlier (thank you @Boxer , that list really got me thinking!).
I'm not sure we've seen any solid evidence he returned to the scene of the crime the next morning. The cell phone pings aren't precise enough to guarantee that ever happened. The white sedans captured behind the house by MSM cameras on the 13th were in the afternoon, and were never claimed as being BK's car by LE.
In fact, that afternoon is when we have the weirdest of his pings, with LE saying he pinged but they don't think he actually was in the area, which is something I am sure the defense will jump on to cast doubt about the previous pings.
That's why I really hope there is GPS data. Even accelerometer data could be useful to corroborate the alleged route.
The same goes for the Elantra footage, and this ties back to what @Megnut says. Do all the images along his alleged route show plate detail, or a missing plate, or the driver? We don't know. If they don't, the defense will use that to say that's just an elantra and all the footage is not necessarily of his, and as we know there are thousands of elantras in the area.
IMO, the problem with all the points listed by @Boxer is that (based on what little we know now), although at first, the totality seems solid, each one can and will be taken apart by the defense, and I don't know how much will remain after that.
DNA would be the biggest hurdle, but they don't seem to be shying away from trying to deconstruct that at all.
I hope this all doesn't come across as pro-BK. I just think a lot of what we've been told is not as solid as I'd like, especially if he's guilty.
The media has played a huge part in overstating what is certain and downplaying what isn't, just so they could get some "breaking news", and in the process I'm afraid we may have gained an overly confident impression of how strong the case against him is.
Remember when the talking heads assured us his car would be a treasure trove of evidence, but there was nothing there? Or that whole debacle around the ID cards in a glove in a box, which a mainstream media "source" claimed belonged to the victims' when there was absolutely nothing to back that up? And let's not forget the "Pappa Rodgers" nonsense... Much ado about nothing.
So now, the media is telling us an Amazon search warrant for sure means he bought the knife on Amazon, and a Dickies tag is definitely for a Michael Myers outfit, but perhaps it's more of the same.
Again, to clarify, I think BK's probably guilty, what I am questioning is whether the evidence will stand up to the defense's counterpoints. I really hope the prosecution has a big reveal we just haven't been privy to.
MOO, JMO, etc.

The satellite data for the phone had not been brought forward yet.
The CAST data for cell towers is very accurate.There are anomlous pings but they are cleary deviations from a constant series of pings showing location.

A single tower yields distance of the phone from a tower in a 30 degree arc.
Taking the rate of speed of between pings it can be shown to be a phone traveling in a car. Then look with a map overlay it can be shown what roads are available for the moving line of pings to be traveling on.
Then if there a second tower, providing data of distance within a 30 degree arc, the point where the arcs interesect provides an even more accurate location for the route of a vehicle.

With BK's phone off during the crime window, the pings ceased en route to Moscow, returned momentary after exiting south of Moscow then restablished continous tower contact further south as the car looped west back to Pullman.
On top of this there may be satellite data.