4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

[North_Idaho_Nony]

So the Judge will review the IGG material in camera and decide what should be revealed to the defense and what should remain closed to the public (likely the name of the Kohberger relative whose DNA was used as a match to identify BK).

Interesting development.

Maybe it’s just me, but I suspect the State was fully prepared for this. They are playing chess, not checkers.

I personally appreciate the State fighting the good fight to protect the privacy of individuals completely unrelated to the crime but for sharing a genetic connection to an accused mass murderer from being exploited by a desperate defense team.

FWIW, had I committed an horrific mass murder that put the DP on the table, I’d want nothing less from my defense team.

All MOO, as always.

 

[Cool Cats]

Maybe it’s just me, but I suspect the State was fully prepared for this. They are playing chess, not checkers.

I personally appreciate the State fighting the good fight to protect the privacy of individuals completely unrelated to the crime but for sharing a genetic connection to an accused mass murderer from being exploited by a desperate defense team.

FWIW, had I committed an horrific mass murder that put the DP on the table, I’d want nothing less from my defense team.

All MOO, as always.

Anne Taylor said:
“There is a heightened standard now the State has announced its intent to seek the death penalty"

So we need to keep in mind that the State of Idaho has a dark end game here - to put Kohberger to death. Sounds jarring.

So I have no problem with the extreme Motions under the circumstances. There will certainly be no room for any appeals with such a thorough defense and this is good.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/103123-Order-Setting-Status-Conference.pdf

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/103123-PUBLIC-Order-Regarding-Notice-of-Zoom-Information.pdf

 

[Cool Cats]

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/103123-Order-Setting-Status-Conference.pdf

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/103123-PUBLIC-Order-Regarding-Notice-of-Zoom-Information.pdf

Wow, victim and defendant family members can attend via zoom. Good call by the judge.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Plywood just removed from doors and windows of house where 4 University of Idaho students were murdered. FBI going back in to construct a physical model of the inside. Latest on @NewsNation.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1719379811380961722

[sbm]

Extended Trial Timeline Allows Investigators to Return to King Road House​

October 31, 2023​

MOSCOW, Idaho — Because the trial of Bryan Kohberger is delayed indefinitely, investigators and the prosecution recently asked University of Idaho for access to the King Road house where a quadruple homicide took place nearly a year ago....

Extended Trial Timeline Allows Investigators to Return to King Road House

With the delay of the Kohberger trial, the prosecution asked University of Idaho for access to the King Road house.

www.uidaho.edu

 

[Jurisprudence]

Anne Taylor said:
“There is a heightened standard now the State has announced its intent to seek the death penalty"

So we need to keep in mind that the State of Idaho has a dark end game here - to put Kohberger to death. Sounds jarring.

So I have no problem with the extreme Motions under the circumstances. There will certainly be no room for any appeals with such a thorough defense and this is good.

[BBM]
I agree. And, unfortunately it's difficult sometimes to deal with the tactics, the burying in paper, the possible underhanded things that may occur but at the end of the day it comes right down to what you say.

jmo

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Agree. In the hearing it was mentioned that BARD was used for GJ indictment before 1920. They also mentioned 1980 for BARD being used. Since then it has been probable cause as the threshold for indictment. I'd like to know more about what happened in 1920 and 1980.

I don't believe JL was repeating Bistline in this argument. JL did talk a little about presentment and I think some of the arguments in the closed hearing might be related. Bistline only touches on probable cause. Bistline did attach the State Statutes to the dissent, but there is no discussion of the Field Code relating to GJ threshold nor Title 19 relating to the GJ warranting a conviction, that I can find. MOO

Also found it interesting that in State v. Edmonson the prosecutor instructed BARD. Which might be why there wasn't much discussion on the issue of probable cause?

From the majority opinion:

Further, without even considering the evidence used to find probable cause, we note that the prosecutor directed the grand jury that it should not indict unless all the elements of an alleged crime are proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwivt4-ejKCCAxXwkokEHYl-ByMQFnoECBUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcasetext.com%2Fcase%2Fstate-v-edmonson-6&usg=AOvVaw29GS6g1CPi5rxfeoYeXRiP&opi=89978449

We do not differ as my opinion is still evolving (just now discovered Field Code and the history behind it).
Maybe the GJ purpose should just be a citizen check on LE and the Judge (probable cause arrest and finding) or maybe the GJ should be more than just a check? Elevating the requirement higher than probable cause might do what the FIeld Code was trying to do - fix the problems with the GJ system. Elevating the threshold could address: "you can indict a ham sandwich", wrongful conviction trajectory, abuse of the GJ system, and prosecutorial advantage. Just some thoughts. Still reading everyone's opinions.
All JMO

During the last hearing, the Judge did say:

"The law doesn't sit still, it evolves."

Kudos for you for being able to absorb Justice Bistline’s dissent so easily! When we studied it in my Philosophy of Law class back in the very early 1990s (before his retirement), I felt like it nearly broke my brain, LOL. I can’t even remember how many club meetings it took us to sort through the finer points, but his reputation as the Great Dissenter hooked us all.

Judge Judge knows the makeup of our current Idaho Supreme Court, of course, so he made me chuckle with that optimism.

 

[maskedwoman]

Or she hasn't seen another case where she felt it would make a difference. I'm offering the disclaimer that I haven't been keeping up with this case like I used to so I might have missed some stuff, but the thinking that if it hasn't been objected to before, means there's nothing to object to doesn't make sense to me. A lot of laws change after decades when a case comes along to challenge the status quo.

MOO

I get your point but they are saying that all Idaho Grand Juries have been using the wrong standard of proof. If their argument about standard of proof is at all valid, then she would have been running into this on every case where prosecutors used a Grand Jury. No need to wait for a case where it would make a difference. At last IMO.

 

[katydid23]

The owner did publicly state that he had not patronized their place of business many months ago.

The owner really has no idea if BK ever ate there or not. The main way he could check is looking for his name on debit or charge transactions. But BK could have paid cash.

The owner is not there at every moment. And I highly doubt that he remembers every face he has ever seen. So I don't believe that the owner can credibly state that BK has never been in his restaurant before.

I do see why he would want to say that however. Who wants the public to think a violent killer was eating there and stalking one of the waitresses?

 

[katydid23]

I prefer that all issues that will obviously lead to an appeal be resolved if they can be prior to trial. IMO, the more resolved everything is prior to trial, the better the trial and it will result in far less expense for taxpayers. Therefore, I don't see this as a delay tactic at all but standard good legal practice.

No one is ever going to resolve 'all issues' of possible appeal before a trial. Never going to happen.

It is obviously important to try and clear up as many issues as possible. But this is a Supreme Court constitutional issue that will take many years to resolve. So it does seem to be a major delay tactic, imo. It is not going to be cleared up before this trial needs to begin.

 

[10ofRods]

I am pretty sure that regardless of pre-trial motions, the standing for appeal would be preserved. Indeed, one could even have a theory that a less rigorous defense could result in MORE post-trial appeals.

At any rate, BK has preserved more avenues for appeal than almost anyone I've ever seen. It could backfire of course, as higher courts may decide not to toss a coin and just go with what the original judge ruled (pretty good practice, actually - our system would fall apart without it).

But I believe BK's defense thinks there's an off chance that the current Supreme Court might eventually here some of these issues it's raising. I don't think so, myself. I think it's the kind of case the Supreme Court will refer back to original jurisdiction and triers of facts, as is the very longterm tradition in both American and British common law.

If the future of American jurisprudence is going to have one cornerstore being "off chances" that the SCOTUS is going to favor them, and in a world of diminishing resources, it makes me feel glum to think that's the way we're going. At the same time, I think that BK should be able to plead down to life in prison.

And if he's absolutely innocent, well, he needs to do more than merely sit silent at his own trial. Because the evidence so far says he's the one who did it and no one else has emerged (at all) in regards the DNA on the KaBar (murder weapon) sheath.

100 years ago, this would have been a quickly tried case. And sure, it's great we are more careful, but no system has INFINITE RESOURCES. That's why I am not keen on the DP. Let the person who is found guilty by their peers appeal, don't just kill them. If they get a whole lifetime of arguing to various parties that they are innocent - fine. Just keep them locked up until they are able to convince triers of fact of that.

IOW, if one trial is thrown out, let them be tried again - if the peers who tried them found them guilty. It's crucial that we have juries of peers - and if their verdict (after trial) is guilty, let the defendants appeal. But the defendants are still guilty and must stay in prison until a new trial is held.

Probably be less expensive than the current system.

IMO.

 

[katydid23]

It looks like Logsdon does intend to take it to the Idaho Supreme Court, so we will see how it goes one way or the other. It is possible this has never been challenged before. JJ seemed to think Logsdon's idea was worthy of a higher court and I think the Idaho Supreme Court may as well.

Actually there were 3 other issues that the defense challenged. At least one of them was presented in the closed hearing and we don't know the result of that or if the other two issues were presented yet at all.

Even if he does eventually make it to the Supreme Court, it is not going to stop BK's trial, imo. It will be a very long process to get there and a very long time waiting for any decision to come down. I think BK's trial will continue in the mean time. JMO

The best BK could hope for is the Supreme Court changes the GJ criteria to BARD and then he will get a new trial---some years down the road if that even happens though. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

FBI at King Road house in Moscow for further investigation

MOSCOW, ID. -- The FBI is currently at the King Road house where four University of Idaho students were murdered last year.

www.kxly.com

 

[Nova]

I prefer that all issues that will obviously lead to an appeal be resolved if they can be prior to trial. IMO, the more resolved everything is prior to trial, the better the trial and it will result in far less expense for taxpayers. Therefore, I don't see this as a delay tactic at all but standard good legal practice.

So you want a murder defendant (who usually doesn't get bail) to sit in jail for years while his/her appeal winds through the higher courts (perhaps including SCOTUS)? Meanwhile, his/her witnesses may be forgetting, relocating or even dying?

I don't believe your proposal will be as efficient as you imagine.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Even if he does eventually make it to the Supreme Court, it is not going to stop BK's trial, imo. It will be a very long process to get there and a very long time waiting for any decision to come down. I think BK's trial will continue in the mean time. JMO

The best BK could hope for is the Supreme Court changes the GJ criteria to BARD and then he will get a new trial---some years down the road if that even happens though. JMO

Agree, but if the SC does change the standard would it be retroactive? Talk about a nightmare of cases if so.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

FBI at King Road house in Moscow for further investigation

MOSCOW, ID. -- The FBI is currently at the King Road house where four University of Idaho students were murdered last year.

www.kxly.com

So it was the FBI, I'm assuming (yes I know what that stand for lol) that is part of the State's case. I'm sooo very curious and glad that they didn't tear it down if in fact some useful information or evidence is found.

MOO

 

[arielilane]

The FBI will be back today at the house where four University of Idaho students were killed.Yesterday -- we saw agents remove all the plywood and go inside with specialized imaging equipment. They also flew a drone outside the Moscow, Idaho hosue.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1719654468411670905

https://twitter.com/BrianEntin

 

[Balthazar]

I am pretty sure that regardless of pre-trial motions, the standing for appeal would be preserved. Indeed, one could even have a theory that a less rigorous defense could result in MORE post-trial appeals.

At any rate, BK has preserved more avenues for appeal than almost anyone I've ever seen. It could backfire of course, as higher courts may decide not to toss a coin and just go with what the original judge ruled (pretty good practice, actually - our system would fall apart without it).

But I believe BK's defense thinks there's an off chance that the current Supreme Court might eventually here some of these issues it's raising. I don't think so, myself. I think it's the kind of case the Supreme Court will refer back to original jurisdiction and triers of facts, as is the very longterm tradition in both American and British common law.

If the future of American jurisprudence is going to have one cornerstore being "off chances" that the SCOTUS is going to favor them, and in a world of diminishing resources, it makes me feel glum to think that's the way we're going. At the same time, I think that BK should be able to plead down to life in prison.

And if he's absolutely innocent, well, he needs to do more than merely sit silent at his own trial. Because the evidence so far says he's the one who did it and no one else has emerged (at all) in regards the DNA on the KaBar (murder weapon) sheath.

100 years ago, this would have been a quickly tried case. And sure, it's great we are more careful, but no system has INFINITE RESOURCES. That's why I am not keen on the DP. Let the person who is found guilty by their peers appeal, don't just kill them. If they get a whole lifetime of arguing to various parties that they are innocent - fine. Just keep them locked up until they are able to convince triers of fact of that.

IOW, if one trial is thrown out, let them be tried again - if the peers who tried them found them guilty. It's crucial that we have juries of peers - and if their verdict (after trial) is guilty, let the defendants appeal. But the defendants are still guilty and must stay in prison until a new trial is held.

Probably be less expensive than the current system.

IMO.

Not the SCOTUS - at least not at this point, we're talking about the Idaho Supreme Court in regards to the conflict within the law in Idaho.

 

[Balthazar]

Even if he does eventually make it to the Supreme Court, it is not going to stop BK's trial, imo. It will be a very long process to get there and a very long time waiting for any decision to come down. I think BK's trial will continue in the mean time. JMO

The best BK could hope for is the Supreme Court changes the GJ criteria to BARD and then he will get a new trial---some years down the road if that even happens though. JMO

I do think this could go to the Idaho Supreme Court prior to trial. State supreme courts are not usually that backed up. Idaho's Supreme Court calendar is NOT full.
Idaho Supreme Court Calendar | Supreme Court
IMO, the more issues they cleared up prior to trial the better.

 

[Balthazar]

So you want a murder defendant (who usually doesn't get bail) to sit in jail for years while his/her appeal winds through the higher courts (perhaps including SCOTUS)? Meanwhile, his/her witnesses may be forgetting, relocating or even dying?

I don't believe your proposal will be as efficient as you imagine.

The defense so far, only has 1 issue to bring before the Idaho Supreme Court and I linked their calendar above in my reply to katydid23 - the calendar reveals there are open times this issue could be heard, even this week. Not saying it will happen this week, but, State Supreme Courts usually move faster than the Supreme Court of the United States. I would not expect this issue to take years to be heard at all.