4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

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10ofRods said:
Do you understand what an SNP profile is and why there would be multiple profiles? (It's a profile, an algorithm). I have tried to explain it several times on these threads, but will do so again if someone asks. If you know what it means, then it's no surprise that the two profiles are different - they have to be. I assume you're just stating the facts rather than asking a question.

Where are you getting the idea that SNP's are ALTERED? That's not what an SNP does or is. There is no alteration to the physical DNA as the SNP profile is just a computer program. It is something that INSPECTS the full profile derived from the ISL.

Each criminal lab has its own SNP profile algorithm - I have given the contrast between the GG company and the FBI several times - they are intended for two different purposes and are radically different in formation.

Step one: (done by forensic geneticists)

Find DNA on sheath and run it through a DNA sequencer, resulting in ONE long piece of data (enormously large) which when there is sufficient DNA. Most humans share 99% of their actual codon sequences with other humans. At many points in the genome, we all have the same allele (and some of those alleles are identical to those of other mammals - and some are even the same as in the banana genome - in short, those alleles control bio-functioning of life on Planet Earth).

So, scientists all over the world study the smaller set of alleles where there is polymorphism. An SNP is a single nucleotide polymorphism. That means 1) there are several alleles and 2) they vary from each other by as little as 1 nucleotide (nucleotides are the A,T,C,G pattern we see in the report of any living thing's DNA).

If you want to identify someone in GG, you use a far greater number of SNP's locations in the genome (no one touches the genes - they are just looking at digital reports of SNP's).

Nothing about this process alters the original sequencing of the DNA. It's just a viewer to try and find out the variations that characterize individuals. There's no point (at all) in spending enormous scientific time and resources on studying the areas of the genome where we are all alike.

To identify individuals, we have to study the parts of the long long nucleotide map where there is variation, where we are individually different.

FBI uses a very small number of SNP's across a population of felons because they want to be able to process hundreds of thousands of submitted FULL DNA DIGITAL FILES quickly and efficiently and, yes, cheaply. They have chosen each SNP after large committees of geneticists, medical doctors and anthropologists have weighed in. Hits are always partial. They lead to suspects. The suspects have their complete DNA files stored within the system - but the full run of data would be enormously bulky to study and it will all come down to polymorphisms in the end - so why not start there? If we're trying to find where we put our keys, we look in certain places - we don't start with Google satellite.

Othram uses WAY more SNP's than the FBI because they are trying to build and illustrate the human family tree (as are Ancestry and 23andme). And that's what they do. Each of these services has a proprietary SNP algorithm. Everyone is looking at the same DNA - just through different lenses, so to speak.

Sorry if this is unnecessary to the discussion - but hopefully we can all see why the Defense might want to inspect the algorithms. I do not see what the legal value of this inspection might be, but, being the Defense, they want everything they can get. It's likely that they are not fully understanding the system, either - and that the jury will hear dualing explainers. But the explainer to trust is someone in academia, with absolutely no ax to grind and is just going to walk the jury through the process.

If I were that explainer, I'd start with something visual, like Parabon. Parabon is a leading innovator and expert in SNP analysis that leads to information about how people look. Obviously, as humans, we distinguish each other by faces and Parabon has kept up with the worldwide research about which locii in the genome are related to facial structure and what the various known alleles are (the total number of alleles for any of these locii is not known or complete - it's ongoing work and their reconstructions continually get better).

If you were to submit your own DNA to Parabon, they'd use their recipe of SNP's to show you what you look like, and it will be eerily close - but not exact, as there are developmental factors involved post-conception.


(I just read further in the thread and it's clear we should try and discuss this - this is a very important technical point and I can try and explain a different way - feel free to ask questions).
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THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. I actually understood it totally about the need for various algorithms. Thank you for the simple yet complex explanation.
 
RE: BK is becoming a jailhouse lawyer.
Interesting. I thought this would happen just not so soon. Also thought BK was in solitary confinement; suppose he doesn't have to sit down in person with the inmates he's helping. It could all be done by paper. In return for helping inmates, BK will get "status and power," protection, perks (commissary items?), and favors for being such a big helpful man in lockup. Sounds like he fits in well at Moscow jail. JMO.
(edit to add: Wonder if this could sway BK to a life-w/out-parole plea rather than the death penalty?) MOO

Brian Entin NewsNation. Oct 3 2023: Kaylee's parents tell Brian Entin at 12 min mark that "BK is writing paper for other prisoners; he gets treated really well bc he's intelligent; he's able to help other prisoners get preferential treatment through the legal system.........."

OJP Jailhouse lawyers. "The status and power of the jailhouse lawyer in the inmate subculture rests on his ability to get things done for inmates. Jailhouse lawyers will continue to have a significant impact in reforming jails and prisons."

Jailhouse Lawyers and Jailhouse Lawyering | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov www.ojp.gov
 
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Tippy Lynn said:
Am I understanding this correctly? One DNA profile was sent off to the GG company and the company changed the profile into two DNA profiles?

I clearly don't understand this DNA jargon. :rolleyes:
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My understanding: Othram created an snp profile from a portion of the crime scene sample, then uploaded that snp profile to its data base/program or whatever. The alogorithm of the data base selected certain parts of that snp profile to begin comparing with other uploaded profiles. When the fbi took over, Othram sent them the uploaded data base profile. Fbi continued the IGG work started by Othram using this smaller file/snp profile. In a nutshell, completely normal,IMO, to first develop a big/massive snp profile but only use certain aspects/parts of it in Investigative genealogy. Thats how it works on the technical level. When members of the public send a tube of spit to these GG services, the service develops an snp profile for the user. When the user uploads this into a data base the alogorithm reduces/alters the profile into a form that can be used for finding possible ancestors. Moo

We know, Imoo, that there was nothing wrong with either the big/complete snp profile developed by Othram or the snp profile created by Othrams alogorithm because this profile resulted in fbi developing a complex family tree of BKs relatives and finally sending a tip to LE re BK. After the arrest BKs dna swab was a direct match with the str dna profile that was developed in the Idaho State Lab from the snap button sheathe dna. BKs defense have filed no motions questioning this dna result. As the P has pointed out consistently, snp and str dna profiles, developed from a crime scene dna sample, are separate and do not overlap. The fbi tip was good.

IMO defense are still learning how all this works. So far they have been provided with both developed snp profiles because they are scientific reports and subject to discovery rules. To me personally, Mr Thompson was very clear about this on Nov 2nd, so clear that Mr Nye - the author of the Ps motions and responses on the IGG matter - did not find it necessary to add any detail.

Looking forward to what the judge decides after the in-camera hearing is held. I guess this is not likely until Dec and realistically we may not get a decision until Jan Imo.
 
I'm Nobody said:
RE: BK is becoming a jailhouse lawyer.
Interesting. I thought this would happen just not so soon. Also thought BK was in solitary confinement; suppose he doesn't have to sit down in person with the inmates he's helping. It could all be done by paper. In return for helping inmates, BK will get "status and power," protection, perks (commissary items?), and favors for being such a big helpful man in lockup. Sounds like he fits in well at Moscow jail. JMO.
(edit to add: Wonder if this could sway BK to a life-w/out-parole plea rather than the death penalty?) MOO

Brian Entin NewsNation. Oct 3 2023: Kaylee's parents tell Brian Entin at 12 min mark that "BK is writing paper for other prisoners; he gets treated really well bc he's intelligent; he's able to help other prisoners get preferential treatment through the legal system.........."

OJP Jailhouse lawyers. "The status and power of the jailhouse lawyer in the inmate subculture rests on his ability to get things done for inmates. Jailhouse lawyers will continue to have a significant impact in reforming jails and prisons."

Jailhouse Lawyers and Jailhouse Lawyering | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov www.ojp.gov
Click to expand...
I think SG says that they do not want BK to have the opportunity to offer his services to other prisoners like BTK does. BTK is housed in maximum security at El Dorado Correctional Facility, KS.

BK is in a cell alone, segregated from others. He attends one hour of chapel once a week, or he was for a while. He has no interaction with the others incarcerated with him while in Latah Co jail. In March, there were only 17 inmates at LCJail. He may visit a doctor or dentist. He has a tv. Maybe clergy visits him. His attorneys visit.
 
@10ofRods thank you so much for sharing that explanation of the process.
If I am reading your post correctly, then the Othram file should be larger than the FBI one, since as you explain, the FBI uses less SNP for its search.
However Ann Taylor claims the files she received reflect the exact opposite situation, with the Othram file being smaller:
Exact quote from AT at the hearing (at 7:28 mark):
"Your honor I received in discovery a snip profile, SNP profile, that I believe came from Othram and one that came from the FBI. The Othram is not a FASTQ file which is a general format that does come out in a different kind of file, and it's a smaller data file than the FBI data file. And so I think that there's some issues with what we received from Othram"
BBM
What should we make of this?
 
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I'm Nobody said:
RE: BK is becoming a jailhouse lawyer.
Interesting. I thought this would happen just not so soon. Also thought BK was in solitary confinement; suppose he doesn't have to sit down in person with the inmates he's helping. It could all be done by paper. In return for helping inmates, BK will get "status and power," protection, perks (commissary items?), and favors for being such a big helpful man in lockup. Sounds like he fits in well at Moscow jail. JMO.
(edit to add: Wonder if this could sway BK to a life-w/out-parole plea rather than the death penalty?) MOO

Brian Entin NewsNation. Oct 3 2023: Kaylee's parents tell Brian Entin at 12 min mark that "BK is writing paper for other prisoners; he gets treated really well bc he's intelligent; he's able to help other prisoners get preferential treatment through the legal system.........."

OJP Jailhouse lawyers. "The status and power of the jailhouse lawyer in the inmate subculture rests on his ability to get things done for inmates. Jailhouse lawyers will continue to have a significant impact in reforming jails and prisons."

Jailhouse Lawyers and Jailhouse Lawyering | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov www.ojp.gov
Click to expand...
DBM: Corrected info
 
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@I'm Nobody and @girlhasnoname
The parents' statement is phrased weird, but they're talking about the BTK killer, not Kohberger. They specifically say, right after the quote, "We don't want that to happen in our case", which helps clarify that they are not talking about Kohberger, just about why they don't want Kohberger to get life instead of the DP, because they don't want him to be able to do the things BTK does.
 
Re Two SNPs : access to the database was transferred from the private lab to the FBI.

In replying to the Judge regarding the two SNPs

Thompson says the difference is this: (8:37)

The one from the private lab is the initial profile that the private lab analyzed, created from the DNA, the portion of the DNA sample. Then what was transferred to the FBI was after that original SNP had been uploaded to a database, access to the database was transferred. And it is our understanding once a SNP is put into one of these databases, the database adjusts the SNP to fit with what their criteria are for them to do their searches. So there are differences between the entirety of the two SNPs.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720179509746622837

ETA: JMO
Edit to change Othram to private lab
 
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Nila Aella said:
Re Two SNPs : access to the database was transferred from Othram to the FBI.

In replying to the Judge regarding the two SNPs

Thompson says the difference is this: (8:37)

The one from the private lab is the initial profile that the private lab analyzed, created from the DNA, the portion of the DNA sample. Then what was transferred to the FBI was after that original SNP had been uploaded to a database, access to the database was transferred. And it is our understanding once a SNP is put into one of these databases, the database adjusts the SNP to fit with what their criteria are for them to do their searches. So there are differences between the entirety of the two SNPs.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720179509746622837

ETA: JMO
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Wanted to add re the private lab:
AT says she believes it is Othram and Thompson didn't say - he just said private lab. So the private lab identity is still not clear. Maybe because of the pending protective order?

JMO
 
Swansee said:
@Nila Aella
Idaho State Police has a contract with Othram, not just for this case but for IGG work in general, since 2021. So it is very very likely them.
I'm not sure the link will work so also posting a screenshot of the ISP announcement.
Link here
View attachment 458162
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If it is Othram, which it appears it would have been, I am relieved. They are the top in their field of expertise.

JMO
 
I'm Nobody said:
RE: BK is becoming a jailhouse lawyer.
Interesting. I thought this would happen just not so soon. Also thought BK was in solitary confinement; suppose he doesn't have to sit down in person with the inmates he's helping. It could all be done by paper. In return for helping inmates, BK will get "status and power," protection, perks (commissary items?), and favors for being such a big helpful man in lockup. Sounds like he fits in well at Moscow jail. JMO.
(edit to add: Wonder if this could sway BK to a life-w/out-parole plea rather than the death penalty?) MOO

Brian Entin NewsNation. Oct 3 2023: Kaylee's parents tell Brian Entin at 12 min mark that "BK is writing paper for other prisoners; he gets treated really well bc he's intelligent; he's able to help other prisoners get preferential treatment through the legal system.........."

OJP Jailhouse lawyers. "The status and power of the jailhouse lawyer in the inmate subculture rests on his ability to get things done for inmates. Jailhouse lawyers will continue to have a significant impact in reforming jails and prisons."

Jailhouse Lawyers and Jailhouse Lawyering | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov www.ojp.gov
Click to expand...

Great post. I too think he's enjoying his role as a jailhouse lawyer - which in some ways, he already was. He was intensely interested in crime.

I think he's been in a kind of solitary confinement all his life, unable to connect to others, seeing very little purpose to life - except, somehow, a life of crime. If he's helping others, it's possible he is getting limited time with others during his one hour a day out of his cell. It's possible he now gets more time than that - I doubt they'll keep us updated.

I know that they can use a tablet for limited communication - I wonder if they are able to communicate with each other using devices. Wouldn't be surprised. But if he's helping others, he's getting *some* contact with others - and with the power dynamic (he's the knowledgeable one, the others need help) that he prefers. TBF, it's a dynamic inherent in most jobs - so he's given himself a purpose.

IMO.
 
Odeto BJ said:
Trimmed by me...Excellent information and a brief comment: a little off topic.
I have a good friend (now retired) who was the head of the actuarial department at a major insurance company. That industry is frankly drooling for extensive DNA databases to incorporate just about everybody so they can tier charge based on personal propensity for chronic diseases, heart conditions and such things as Alzeimers and ALS.

Having hit the driving age during the muscle car era: I'm confident I know where that leads and, dealing as it does with health costs and longevity, its frightening....
Click to expand...

There are aspects of federal law which (if enforced and applied by the states) would prohibit discrimination based on one's inheritance. That's my reading of the situation, anyway.

There are several states, though, who refuse to enact local legislation for their statewide insurance programs and refuse to actually enforce the law. Then, there are other states that have enacted their own laws to prevent this kind of thing.

I should say that I'm speaking of health insurance - NOT life insurance, which is probably what the insurance companies are salivating over.

At any rate, when I was working actively in the blood data collection process (this is now years ago - I do genetic research design and field diagnostics as the core of my lab teaching and expertise), I knew back then that the little bottles of blood I was collecting were being sorted into various freezers (some of them untouched - but ready to be run when there were further advances in those algorithms we've been discussing). All of the blood was collected with permission from patients inside different hospitals. In my own world, I have authorized my healthcare provider (UCLA) to use my blood results in research as they see fit - with anonymity of course. Hundreds of thousands have done the same thing.

We don't ALL have to contribute to the genome project for it to make huge strides from the sheer number of people who are giving permission in many different ways to continue to expand the database. My late mother authorized (perhaps without complete understanding) the use of her medical data as she was written up as a rare patient and, well, doctors suspected there were genes involved (she had two forms of macular degeneration, which is almost unheard of - it's usually one or the other; it appears one form does run in her family - and is likely the same gene that's also causing some other unusual diseases to pop up in her broader family tree).

At any rate, the genie is out of the bottle. And one interesting sidelight is that most people don't even review their own bloodwork results. They go to their doctor and the doctor brings things up (based on the results) but almost never goes over the specific results that lead to that conclusion. It is possible of course, to ask the doctor to share ALL the results they've gotten on a person, but most people do not. They don't know what to ask for or what it means. At any rate, some doctors routinely run certain genetic tests (such as for APOE system) and then use those results in a treatment plan - so that person's genes are being studied, they just may not be aware that to a doctor, such a practice is no different than checking for leukocytes or whatever.

Strange new world we're in, but DNA analysis has revolutionized how crime is investigated. Another amazing new technology is the functional MRI and its cousin SPECT analysis - we're learning a lot about how behavior is related to biology, in ways that are just now being defined. I do think services like Othram and Parabon will just get better and better at identifying suspects.

My big curiosity would be...what will people (including doctors, actuarial accountants and many others) do IF we discover the gene(s) that cause antisocial decision-making and criminal behavior. There is probably a suite of genes - some of them known, btw. But should we be testing kids and warning their parents (at least one of whom must have the same genes in most cases?) I doubt I'll live to see much law enacted around this - or much discussion, but some of you very well might! I think it's likely to be at least a couple more decades, maybe three.

IMO.
 
DeDee said:
I think SG says that they do not want BK to have the opportunity to offer his services to other prisoners like BTK does. BTK is housed in maximum security at El Dorado Correctional Facility, KS.

BK is in a cell alone, segregated from others. He attends one hour of chapel once a week, or he was for a while. He has no interaction with the others incarcerated with him while in Latah Co jail. In March, there were only 17 inmates at LCJail. He may visit a doctor or dentist. He has a tv. Maybe clergy visits him. His attorneys visit.
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Thank you @DeDee I heard it wrong. Wish I could delete it. So BK is NOT a jailhouse lawyer yet
Thank you, putting myself in time out again. UGH
MO
 
I'm Nobody said:
Thank you @DeDee I heard it wrong. Wish I could delete it. So BK is NOT a jailhouse lawyer yet
Thank you, putting myself in time out again. UGH
MO
Click to expand...
Hey, no problem. We all make mistakes here. I had to learn not to post if I have an extra glass of wine or two after dinner---too many 'oopsie' posts.... :p
'
Don't put yourself in a timeout, you are fine...
 
Swansee said:
@10ofRods thank you so much for sharing that explanation of the process.
If I am reading your post correctly, then the Othram file should be larger than the FBI one, since as you explain, the FBI uses less SNP for its search.
However Ann Taylor claims the files she received reflect the exact opposite situation, with the Othram file being smaller:
Exact quote from AT at the hearing (at 7:28 mark):
"Your honor I received in discovery a snip profile, SNP profile, that I believe came from Othram and one that came from the FBI. The Othram is not a FASTQ file which is a general format that does come out in a different kind of file, and it's a smaller data file than the FBI data file. And so I think that there's some issues with what we received from Othram"
BBM
What should we make of this?
Click to expand...
The way I understand it is that SNP is basically the match criteria. So less SNP means less criteria for a match. Less criteria means more results. For example, if you search for people based on hair color, and then do a second search based on hair and eye color, the search for hair color will have more matches. More critieria excludes more matches.

So the FBI SNP (dna matching criteria) is small because they want to cast a wider net. The private lab/Othram SNP is large because they want to narrow down the results as much as possible.
 
With any big advance in science, and especially bioscience, there is going to be moral, ethical and legal consequences. We have been remote witness to many of the advancements and proximate to a few. That progress is inherently logarithmic and a lag has developed in terms of the reactions and ramifications. Its my own belief that we will see a proliferation of obfuscation, woke speak intrusion and politician's phraseology as a greater proportion of the population is overwhelmed comprehensively by the relentless expansion. The regulatory, legal, administrative and educational systems are going to have to upgrade and streamline their methods of change: and there will be a great growth in the need for CE; a new round of management consultants will benefit. MOO

Other than that, what's for lunch?
 
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