4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #91

[Boxer]

SA includes rape FWIW.

He was in and out in 10 minutes, not really enough time to SA and murder IMO. Idk if he thought he had more time had other things in mind or if he did exactly what he set out to do. I personally don't think he intended to SA anyone that night.

If BK thought he had time, He might have completed an asssault.
MOO plan went bad as soon as another person was present in Maddie's room.

 

[Cool Cats]

I'm not taking a stance here so there isn't an argument precisely. But there is more than one view. It is being debated. I have seen less reporting from a pro-demo stance but there is some and the best journalism covers both. JMOO

Kohberger case prosecution will regret Idaho house demolition: Expert

Attorney Mark Geragos says the prosecution will regret its decision to oppose the demolition of the house where four Idaho students were killed.

www.newsnationnow.com

Idaho murder house demolition could help Bryan Kohberger

The house where four students were murdered will be demolished over winter break, prompting some to say that it could benefit the man charged with the killings.

www.newsweek.com

http://

Should a Notorious Crime Scene Be Demolished Before Trial? (Published 2023)

Officials want to tear down the house where four Idaho college students were murdered last year, setting off a debate over preserving the scenes of mass violence.

www.nytimes.com

You asked this question and I was only answering.

Your Question QUOTE:

"Are they looking to get their dates settled so that they can come back saying okay, okay we won't knock the house down? "

Despite what the general public and talking heads and article opinion pieces say,

The prosecution does not need the house.
The defense does not need the house.
The jury does not need to walk through the house.

The jury can't walk through the house. It could damage their lungs, it is a health hazard contaminated by multiple toxic chemical applications. The floors and walls are missing in various places.

The jury will get a clearer view of the house from the painstaking work of the FBI with the sophisticated FARO SCANS.

2 Cents

 

[pittsburghgirl]

No one is saying he raped anyone, that I gave seen.

I and another poster were discussing possible thoughts in BK's head. Pure speculation. We're all pretty familiar with this case and it's clear there was no rape. Indeed, it seems as if early LE statements implied there was no sexual crime at all (there are other sexual crimes besides rape which leave evidence).

I'm not sure how you would know whether he was thinking only about murder or possibly thinking about sex crimes and murder. Both types of criminals exist, which was my point. This is a very unusual crime. It is virtually the only crime of its type in the Mass Murder Database (most are either ideologically driven OR the people are known to each other - usually family related, but sometimes neighbors or colleagues). There are vanishingly few stranger mass murders in which there's also a home invasion (a house not lived in or previously visited by the perp). We have also speculated here about whether he had been in the house before (if I had to bet, I'd bet that he had been in the house).

We are not talking about an actual rape. We are talking about his mindset, possibly his worldview, his mentality, his motivations. I personally agree with you - that the motivation was either only or primarily rape. But I never narrow down to one hypothesis until there's more evidence. We simply do not know what was in his mind. I have personally interviewed criminals who had the intention of raping, found that to be impossible/not what was going to happen and switched to phase 2 (which was murder, all along). Many rapists DO murder their victims, usually because they think this removes a witness.

I can envision, as I said, a mindset in which a potential murderer also considers rape and is mentally aroused by the juxtaposition (especially as he's driving around, getting ready). None of us knows.

We are just speculating. Some people feel strongly that knife attacks are closely related to sexual attacks. SG's description of KG's wounds makes me think there's a possibility that there was a sexual element to the crime. In BK's mind.

I think discussing possible motivations is crucial in all crime cases, it's the main reason I study crime. It's the main reason many of us are here. I do not at all think the rape scenario is as ridiculous as all the other things you mention.

I could actually reshape the "rape" hypothesis into more words and point to some research about what goes on in the minds of rapists, but I've probably said enough. There are different academic theories on all of this, of course, but there is literature to support the fact that knife attacks, by a man, on a woman, may have a sexual element.

Let me ask you a question, though. Do you think he would have entered a house that had 4 men living in it, and killed a visitor who was a woman, while leaving 2 men alive? I believe he was targeting the house because he knew young women dwelt in it.

If he had killed 4 elderly people, yes, I'd be pondering whether he had something against the elderly and would regard it as a crime against the elderly. That's not what he did. He killed 3 women, all of whom had an outgoing, active, beautiful social media presence, with lots of male admirers (judging by the pre-murder instagram interactions and other clues from the internet).

This was a crime against women, IMO. It's just an opinion. We may never know. I doubt he'll take the stand. I doubt he'll write a book. I doubt he'll be interviewed.

All IMO.

When I think about this case, I find myself thinking of Richard Speck, who killed 8 student nurses in a home invasion mass murder in 1966. He was a career criminal, with a long rap sheet with theft, forgery, fraud and various assaults (including assaults with knives). He was suspected in 7 earlier murders in two different states.Even in the assault on the student nurses, he stabbed and strangled 7 victims, and raped and strangled the last one. The surviving roommate said when he broke into the house, he seemed calm and said he was looking for money. He had both a gun and a knife but he didn't use the gun. The talking led the women to think they would be OK if they did what he said.

The Speck case was a far more spontaneous crime by a criminal demonstrably less intelligent that BK. And he took hours to carry out his crimes. But home invasion, the rage against women, the use of talk to control the victims, and the preference for killing up close and personal (by knife and strangulation) shows us that much of what happened in Idaho had been done before. Like BK, Speck left evidence behind, in his case, fingerprints. And a survivor was able to provide a description not only of his face but of a distinctive feature, a tattoo.

Speck took money from his victims but if his motive had been simply robbery, he wouldn't have spent hours beating, stabbing and strangling 8 women, raping the last of them. We have decades of hindsight on this case, and it's easy to see that it was a crime against women. And I agree with you that these murders were a crime against women, as well, a demonstration of power over them, with Ethan being either an unexpected complication or a chance to further demonstrate his power by killing a boyfriend.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I wonder if BK had access to or had ever attempted to gain access to a firearm? Would he have been allowed to own one with his juvenile crime history? Just wondering. I live in the UK and don't exactly understand how gun ownership works. I wonder if he'd have rather have had a gun if he had the choice / option?

 

[Boxer]

I wonder if BK had access to or had ever attempted to gain access to a firearm? Would he have been allowed to own one with his juvenile crime history? Just wondering. I live in the UK and don't exactly understand how gun ownership works. I wonder if he'd have rather have had a gun if he had the choice / option?

He had a handgun at his house in PA.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

He had a handgun at his house in PA.

Oh. I didn't realise this. I wonder if it was registered to him? Also whether he'd tried to upgrade to something more like an automatic reloading weapon.

 

[Cool Cats]

I wonder if BK had access to or had ever attempted to gain access to a firearm? Would he have been allowed to own one with his juvenile crime history? Just wondering. I live in the UK and don't exactly understand how gun ownership works. I wonder if he'd have rather have had a gun if he had the choice / option?

I believe he used a knife because shooting would wake everyone up plus alert neighbors.

I see no reason that BK could not have purchased a gun in Pennsylvania and he actually may have bought one but the prosecution doesn't need that information for trial.

In Pennsylvania your gun background check looks for felony convictions and BK was arrested for misdemeanor theft. On top of that there is no record that BK was ever convicted and you have to be convicted to have an actual criminal record.

IF BK was convicted for misdemeanor theft it is not coming up on his record for a reason. I believe the reason is because in Monroe County Pennsylvania where BK was arrested, first-time offenders have the opportunity to enter into a pretrial program. It's called "Accelerated Rehabilitative Disposition," which allows for charges to be dropped and the record to be "expunged" once the accused successfully completes probation.

Idaho college killings suspect was first arrested in 2014, records show

Idaho college killings suspect Bryan Kohberger was first arrested in 2014, records show.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Kittybunny]

I wonder if BK had access to or had ever attempted to gain access to a firearm? Would he have been allowed to own one with his juvenile crime history? Just wondering. I live in the UK and don't exactly understand how gun ownership works. I wonder if he'd have rather have had a gun if he had the choice / option?

I really don't believe so. Stabbing has an up close and personal nature that I believe fulfilled a fantasy in this killing. A gun is too fast and too impersonal. JMHO

 

[whiterhino]

Good reasoning about the cars in front. Still MOO I think he regarded himself a master of hot prowl. If no evidence from an arrest its not going to be something that can be shown in court, it's just a hunch from his behaviors and drug addiction.
Stalkers form relationships in their minds with their victims.
Celebrities that get stalked can end up with those stalkers in their livingrooms calling them by their first names.

I'm super curious and hope we learn how the girls came to be on BKs radar. I am not sure what to think anymore, every take or angle has a flaw, a missing piece or some kind oof catch.

 

[Chloegirl]

I really don't believe so. Stabbing has an up close and personal nature that I believe fulfilled a fantasy in this killing. A gun is too fast and too impersonal. JMHO

Intrusive thoughts comes to mind. People who think about stabbing probably are in a different category altogether. JMOO

 

[al66pine]

Demolition of 1122 King Road?

.... There's a lot of conflict over the house.
I would hate to see a protest or a family have to legally fight it....

snipped for focus
@Chloegirl Yes, a lot of opinions about the house demo issue.
A family "legally" fighting it?

In court? How would family do that?

They have no past or present ownership interest in the 1122 King property, although as renters their daughters were former tenants.

They are not parties to criminal case, State of Idaho v. Kohberger.

If I am misunderstanding the post, my apologies.

 

[al66pine]

FWIW The Dec. 1, cnn.com roundup "2023: The Year in Pictures" features a Jan. 4 pic of BK.

Part of the caption:
"Bryan Kohberger, the man accused of killing four University of Idaho students in November 2022, is escorted by law enforcement after arriving at an airport in Pullman, Washington."

A very big Thank You to @Gemmie for posting a link on a thread for another case.

Have not checked entire gallery, but I suspect we'll see some other familar names and faces in other cases there, likely some victims, some POIs, some convicted perps.

2023: The year in pictures

It was a year filled with tragedy, historic firsts and inspiring performances. Look back at 2023 in pictures.

www.cnn.com

 

[Luna20]

I believe he used a knife because shooting would wake everyone up plus alert neighbors.

I see no reason that BK could not have purchased a gun in Pennsylvania and he actually may have bought one but the prosecution doesn't need that information for trial.

In Pennsylvania your gun background check looks for felony convictions and BK was arrested for misdemeanor theft. On top of that there is no record that BK was ever convicted and you have to be convicted to have an actual criminal record.

IF BK was convicted for misdemeanor theft it is not coming up on his record for a reason. I believe the reason is because in Monroe County Pennsylvania where BK was arrested, first-time offenders have the opportunity to enter into a pretrial program. It's called "Accelerated Rehabilitative Disposition," which allows for charges to be dropped and the record to be "expunged" once the accused successfully completes probation.

Idaho college killings suspect was first arrested in 2014, records show

Idaho college killings suspect Bryan Kohberger was first arrested in 2014, records show.

abcnews.go.com

This is interesting. It makes me wonder if there were other incidents that occurred at home that made his father report him on this one.

It was his sister versus an unknown person. Odd that he didn’t apply discipline at home to him and leave it at that. He was definitely making a point about it. I wonder if his father was afraid of him and uncertain of what he might do next.

 

[Cool Cats]

This is interesting. It makes me wonder if there were other incidents that occurred at home that made his father report him on this one.

It was his sister versus an unknown person. Odd that he didn’t apply discipline at home to him and leave it at that. He was definitely making a point about it. I wonder if his father was afraid of him and uncertain of what he might do next.

I am 100% sure (opinion) his dad was very careful to not do anything to get BK convicted and thus having a criminal record. Even a misdemeanor often stops people from employment and no way would BK's parents want to do anything to hurt his future employment in any way. Makes zero sense.

I believe the sister and or dad dropped the charges and thus no conviction.

I think BK's dad did this to teach him a lesson, that theft is serious and can lead to jail, criminal charges, and a criminal record. Getting him arrested would have pounded the point home to a 19 year old.

I don't think most parents would see clear to take this measure unless other measures were not working. In other words, I don't think this was BK's first time stealing from his family. Maybe money out of wallets and purses.

Dad afraid of him? A bit of a red flag that his dad told cops that BK told him "not to do anything stupid."
That does sound a bit threatening.

2 Cents

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I'm super curious and hope we learn how the girls came to be on BKs radar. I am not sure what to think anymore, every take or angle has a flaw, a missing piece or some kind oof catch.

I keep wondering if they came on his radar via the police call outs and the police video footage of their call outs (re noisy parties). But I can't figure out how that could happen. Does anyone know if the police body camera footage in that state is somehow accessible as public information or suchlike?

 

[MeadowMuffin]

I wonder if BK had access to or had ever attempted to gain access to a firearm? Would he have been allowed to own one with his juvenile crime history? Just wondering. I live in the UK and don't exactly understand how gun ownership works. I wonder if he'd have rather have had a gun if he had the choice / option?

Unsealed warrants reveal what was found in car and Pennsylvania home of suspect in University of Idaho murders
According to results of the search warrants of the Kohberger home in PA, a "Glock 22 Gen 5 .40 caliber" gun and 3 empty magazines for a Glock .40 were obtained. Also a Smith and Wesson pocketknife, in addition to a "knife". So BK owned a handgun. But did he have it with him in WA and bring it back with him when he returned home? Or did he leave it in PA when he moved to WA?
BK's misdemeanor record for stealing his sister's iPhone was expunged after he entered a pretrial program for first time offenders and completed a probationary period.
As far as gun ownership in the US, I believe each state has it's own rules. Here in MN "permit to carry" is allowed.It doesn't have to be concealed. I took a class offered by a certified trainer, received training in firing a handgun under supervision, and brought my certificate from the completed class to my county sheriff's office. Filled out a Permit to Carry application, paid a fee, and waited for a background check to be completed. I already had a current background check as I hold a NJ nursing license and a background check is required there, so in a week I had my permit. Husband had to wait a month. It's valid for 5 years, then one would take a class and reapply. A permit to carry is also a permit to purchase, and we had to show our permits when we purchased our guns. A person can purchase an unlimited number of firearms within that 5 year period.

 

[Sleuth2010]

I'm not taking a stance here so there isn't an argument precisely. But there is more than one view. It is being debated. I have seen less reporting from a pro-demo stance but there is some and the best journalism covers both. JMOO

Kohberger case prosecution will regret Idaho house demolition: Expert

Attorney Mark Geragos says the prosecution will regret its decision to oppose the demolition of the house where four Idaho students were killed.

www.newsnationnow.com

Idaho murder house demolition could help Bryan Kohberger

The house where four students were murdered will be demolished over winter break, prompting some to say that it could benefit the man charged with the killings.

www.newsweek.com

Family of Idaho murder victim expresses frustration with decision to tear down home

As the suspect's defense team gains access to the home, the family of Kaylee Goncalves says they feel their opinion on what to do with the home is not a priority.

www.krem.com

Should a Notorious Crime Scene Be Demolished Before Trial? (Published 2023)

Officials want to tear down the house where four Idaho college students were murdered last year, setting off a debate over preserving the scenes of mass violence.

www.nytimes.com

IMO MOO
Agree Chloegirl !!
It is regrettable that the University didn't immediately build a tasteful, necessary, privacy wall. That would have eliminated a lot of the concerns. If any of the parents/families want it to remain, it should. Once gone, it is forever.
A privacy wall, as found everywhere these days, would work. Just some common sense.

Planting Ethan's memorial flowers on the outside, perhaps, with climbing flowers and roses... the flowers of eternal hope, faith in goodness, and love.

Thank you, again, team law enforcement. An awesome step for justice. Wings-of-Justice.

 

[Cindizzi]

 

[Sundog]

IMO MOO
Agree Chloegirl !!
It is regrettable that the University didn't immediately build a tasteful, necessary, privacy wall. That would have eliminated a lot of the concerns. If any of the parents/families want it to remain, it should. Once gone, it is forever.
A privacy wall, as found everywhere these days, would work. Just some common sense.

Planting Ethan's memorial flowers on the outside, perhaps, with climbing flowers and roses... the flowers of eternal hope, faith in goodness, and love.

Thank you, again, team law enforcement. An awesome step for justice. Wings-of-Justice.

Perhaps they will plant some of Ethan's memorial flowers on the site when they build the new healing garden. I think that would be fitting and I imagine the university will invite the family memers of the victims to add their touch to the healing garden, and to the opening event.

The parents who want to keep the house may be able to purchase it from the university, although I doubt that they would do that. The university is not able to provide the upkeep of an empty building nor would want it as a rental property given its history. Universites are bequeated numerous properties every year by faculty, staff and community alumni/ae and they have to be judicious about which ones they accept and the terms of the agreements. The university is doing the right thing, IMO, and the healing garden is something that the university can maintain within its portfolio.

 

[gremlin444]

I was thinking the other day of the upkeep necessary to maintain an empty property long term through summer and winter weather and keep it at a level, that if not inhabitable, is at least safe for people to come in for a restricted amount of time. I've had to do that after family members died in the Midwest. Without heat or a/c running (with water shut off to avoid burst pipes), even with frequent checking we had mold, insects, and other problems.

And that was with intact walls and floors. And without the presence of the chemicals needed to clean up biohazardous waste.

So, you keep the house up through trial. Now what? Is it okay now, or do you need to wait for appeals to be done?

Death penalty will immediately go to appeal. And the appeal process for death sentences is incredibly lengthy. For example, in Ohio, you are looking at an average of 15 years to work through all levels of appeals.

Ohio Prosecuting Attorneys Association

IMHO, that is not tenable.