4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #95

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It's neurological.

My partner meets the criteria. She also has had continuous migraine visual aura symptoms for over twenty years. The two conditions can overlap, but VSS can also present in people who don't experience migraines. It's not really understood why or how it develops, though there are theories. Most people have it for life once it begins.


MOO
Also, those with continuous migraine visual aura symptoms (AKA scintillating scotoma) don't have to experience migraines. I know because I'm one of them. I only get the light show. Sorry to hear that your partner experiences the migraine part of the scotoma. :(
 
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I’ve yet to see a reasonable alternative theory. I’ve seen a lot of people implying things with no evidence.

IMO if the jury can not think of a reasonable alternative to BK leaving the DNA on the murder sheath himself…it’s a guilty verdict.
This has to be the focus of the defense. They are going to use the 3rd party culprit strategy.

Defense attorney madlib here ( ): its not his DNA because ( ), it got there because ( ); stolen, examined at a store, belongs to friend...
 
This has to be the focus of the defense. They are going to use the 3rd party culprit strategy.

Defense attorney madlib here ( ): its not his DNA because ( ), it got there because ( ); stolen, examined at a store, belongs to friend...

I was going to suggest he'll say:
he never owned a knife.
That knife was not the murder weapon used to kill those victims
That sheath belonged to another knife, origins unknown, planted there by someone who was framing him
There was no DNA on that sheath

The defense doesn't really have to explain every alternative argument, they have to make the prosecution explain why its wrong.
 
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It sounds like you are saying, rather than narrowing down, to the best they can, what they are looking for when they ask for help, they should say, “Please help us if you have seen a white vehicle.” Because LE shouldn’t later modify what they are looking for?

I guess we’d better agree to disagree on this one. And that’s okay.

That isn't at all what I'm saying. Just as you're confused about what I'm saying, I'm confused about why it doesn't make sense that the defense's only job is to put doubt in the minds of the jury and that ANY law enforcement mistake will be used to do that. That's what it comes down to. LE made a mistake. We can argue all kinds of excuses for that mistake to have been made, but the bottom line is that it was a mea culpa. Unless we're going to say that out of the goodness of their hearts, the defense will just let it go, I think we have to be prepared for AT to bring this up and use it against the case.

MOO
 
That isn't at all what I'm saying. Just as you're confused about what I'm saying, I'm confused about why it doesn't make sense that the defense's only job is to put doubt in the minds of the jury and that ANY law enforcement mistake will be used to do that. That's what it comes down to. LE made a mistake. We can argue all kinds of excuses for that mistake to have been made, but the bottom line is that it was a mea culpa. Unless we're going to say that out of the goodness of their hearts, the defense will just let it go, I think we have to be prepared for AT to bring this up and use it against the case.

MOO
Yep, IMO the Defense will certainly go after any and all investigative and/or communication mistakes they can find in an attempt to show the prosecution did not do their job thoroughly or correctly.

I just finished bingeing the Netflix Docuseries on Scott Peterson (Murder of wife and unborn child). During trial, the defense came out of the gate attacking the prosecution's credibility. The prosecution had some rather disappointing days during that trial. In the end - Guilty, sentenced to Death (in a circumstantial evidence case). So, like others have said, it is expected (especially when there is no alibi).
 
That isn't at all what I'm saying. Just as you're confused about what I'm saying, I'm confused about why it doesn't make sense that the defense's only job is to put doubt in the minds of the jury and that ANY law enforcement mistake will be used to do that. That's what it comes down to. LE made a mistake. We can argue all kinds of excuses for that mistake to have been made, but the bottom line is that it was a mea culpa. Unless we're going to say that out of the goodness of their hearts, the defense will just let it go, I think we have to be prepared for AT to bring this up and use it against the case.

MOO

You might be correct that I’m confused about what you are saying.

However, I do not agree LE made a mistake that was illegal or that will harm their case. They used information they had at the time to follow leads, and when they had better information, they used the new information to follow better leads.

Isn’t that how investigations proceed?

As always, IMO, and I could be wrong.
 
Possible Defense Approaches. Knife?
I was going to suggest he'll say:
he never owned a knife.
That knife was not the murder weapon used to kill those victims
That sheath belonged to another knife, origins unknown, planted there by someone who was framing him
There was no DNA on that sheath

The defense doesn't really have to explain every alternative argument, they have to make the prosecution explain why its wrong.
@Betty P Yep, AT & the crew may come up w some doozies.

The catch w first idea --- "he'll say he never owned a knife" ---
is that it would require BK to take the stand imo and be would be subject to prosecutor's cross-exam, unless I'm overlooking another way to get that stmt into evidence.

IIRC one of the search warrants (his apt, his car, or at parents' house?) turned up a knife but I do not recall further description, like fixed blade, etc. imo

Anyone recall or have a link to the list w knife, as seized w search warrant?
 
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This is an iffy case, and at the beginning when some suggested BK planned the whole thing to see if he could beat the rap, I was pretty sure that wasn't the case. But, given just 20 cells of touch DNA and a cell expert saying the evidence he's seeing is exculpatory, I'm questioning my former opinion.

I don't want to see BK walk but the stars are seemingly aligning in that direction. At this point, I think egos need to take a back seat to logic. BK has (potentially) the best attorney he could ask for, and between the two of them, they're making some big waves.

Why take a chance that you'll get someone on the jury who is sympathetic to the Kirkers? It's simply not worth it I don't like the way this feels.

All MOO
 
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I was going to suggest he'll say:
he never owned a knife.
That knife was not the murder weapon used to kill those victims
That sheath belonged to another knife, origins unknown, planted there by someone who was framing him
There was no DNA on that sheath

The defense doesn't really have to explain every alternative argument, they have to make the prosecution explain why its wrong.
Are you saying that he's going to get on the stand and say that stuff (he obviously won't)?

Otherwise, how is the defense going to get those theories and that narrative into the trial? The opening and closing is not evidence.

I suppose they can introduce tiny bits and pieces of it through cross examination or direct via their expert witnesses. But it's not going to be that straight forward. It's going to be fragmented and left up to the jury to piece together.

They have a tough hill to climb.
 
That isn't at all what I'm saying. Just as you're confused about what I'm saying, I'm confused about why it doesn't make sense that the defense's only job is to put doubt in the minds of the jury and that ANY law enforcement mistake will be used to do that. That's what it comes down to. LE made a mistake. We can argue all kinds of excuses for that mistake to have been made, but the bottom line is that it was a mea culpa. Unless we're going to say that out of the goodness of their hearts, the defense will just let it go, I think we have to be prepared for AT to bring this up and use it against the case.

MOO
Chasing down leads, hitting a wall, and pivoting using that learning is a part of every investigation.

IMO think the misidentification of the car's manufacturing date is only an issue on the internet.

In the DC sniper case they thought it was a white box truck and then they thought it was a white van. It ended up being a blue Chevy Caprice which couldn't be further from either a white box or a white van. Same with the Polly Klaas case, also a white truck, Richard Allen Davis drove a dark (from what i remember) Pinto. Chandry Levy's case focused on a dark colored car seen around her neighborhood which only amplified the speculation around Condit who drove a Jaguar. They ended up arresting someone else a decade or more (can't remember off the top of my head) later. MOO

In all of those cases early investigative leads focused on the wrong vehicles. And if I recall correctly ( I may be wrong about 1 of them) all 3 defenses attempted to use those misidentifications to argue their innocence. All of those cases saw convictions. With the latter two leaning HEAVILY on DNA. JMO

And those cases are from times when our streets weren't covered with cameras. I think a jury is going to be able to see with their own eyes that Kohlbergers vehicle is EXTREMELY similar to the vehicle authorities identified as the killer's car. Live on video. A luxury that those other cases didn't have.

MOO
 
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Also, those with continuous migraine visual aura symptoms (AKA scintillating scotoma) don't have to experience migraines. I know because I'm one of them. I only get the light show. Sorry to hear that your partner experiences the migraine part of the scotoma. :(
I've had both. Went to see an Opthamologist because I was so freaked out when I experienced the light show. I get bad Migraines. Was told that it can be a precurser for Migraines.
 
Is it known what VSS is exactly, physiologically? I mean, is it a problem in the brain or in the eyes or something else? IIUC, it manifests as a vision problem, like seeing static or dots or SNOW (hence the name), but are there other common physical symptoms? I suppose they don't know what causes it? How common is it? Could you have it and not know it?
It's not an eye problem- I went to see an Opthamologist for it.
 
LE had video of a white car in the neighborhood. The fbi expert identified a 2011-13 Elantra. There was something he/his identification program saw that indicated a 2011-13 Elantra. He expanded the years (still and Elantra) at a later unknown date for an unknown reason.

JL did mentioned an identification of a car on Ridge Road in the Objection to States motion for protective order:

A report from an analyst for the FBI dated March 21, 2023 shows the analyst heavily relying on a video of a car heading in the wrong direction and at the wrong time on Ridge Rd.


JMO

edited by me for focus:
I'm puzzled over the multiple traffic cameras he would have passed through if he took the route alleged by police in both Washington and Idaho where there is no photo of his car at all.
Mapping South of Moscow and back to Pullman.

27:13
AT: So you did this on some open source mapping, not anything on NB creating a visual for you?

27:23
BP: No Maam. I did view a draft report from SA B to help me conceptualize this, but it did not look like this map.


From SRs testimony: 80% of the CDRs were not plotted.
Twenty percent of the CDRs and a draft report were used to conceptualize a map, created using open source mapping (power point), of a possible route.

There is no video of the Elantra exiting the neighborhood, on any route.
There is no video of an Elantra on BPs conceptualized possible route map.

JMO
 
If we are going by his Tapatalk posts, he does have it. He saw ophthalmologists, psychiatrists, had imaging done of blood vessels in/around his eyes, was tested for migraines, etc. At the time he was posting about this (2009-2012), it was really hard to get a diagnosis of VSS. It's not something most GPs or ophthalmologists were well versed in, and many still aren't. My 22 yo son was diagnosed with it in 2019--and that was only after going to the psychiatrist, GP, ophthalmologist, neurologist, having a MRI, tons of blood work, and finally getting a referral to a neuro-ophthalmologist at a major teaching hospital where she did a ton of tests. There really are no tests to confirm VSS--it's more a matter of testing to eliminate other possibilities...which is why it's often not diagnosed. The medications he mentions and the effects they had are all in line with VSS. The mental health effects he mentions such as disassociation/depersonalization/derealization can be quite common with VSS. Personally, I don't doubt that he has it. It's certainly not an excuse for his behavior, but given how for some people VSS has some very strong ties to mental health issues (if the VSS wasn't caused by LSD or marijuana use), it can help give us a better picture of aspects of his personality.

And before someone brings it up again--VSS does not make night driving impossible for everyone. Because VSS has different causes and triggers, for some people their vision is better at night. Lower light for my son both reduces the intensity of his VSS and makes it easier to "ignore/adapt to" the lowered VSS. For him, broad daylight makes it much much worse. For some VSS patients, the absence of bright lights does not reduce their VSS, so their VSS is just as strong at night time as it is during the day.
I don't think BK's tapatalk posts are proven evidence. If the defense tries to use that as a mitigating factor, good luck with that.

I wonder what the actual, documented proven statistics are that says VSS is a contributing factor in a quadruple homicide? Or any homicide for that matter?

Very low I'd wager:

Here's a link from world renowned Cleveland Clinic on it, one I found interesting is that it does cause difficulty seeing at night, maybe that's what saved BF and maybe why he brought his phone to the scene because he couldn't go back by a circuitous route without it.

<snipped>
  • Having trouble seeing at night (nyctalopia).
Visual Snow Syndrome (Static Vision)


JMO
 
Let me be clear--I think he's guilty.

While I don't agree with the defense in general, I can tell you exactly what their VSS and/or psychiatric expert will say and SHOULD say is a contributing factor...and that is the effect VSS has on mental health and how it can cause depersonalization/derealization in some individuals. I think it's pretty easy to see how DP/DR could be seen in how he related to others. Do all people with VSS or DP/DR become murderers--no. But in BK's case I feel they are all major ingredients in the soup.

Do I think it should change whether he gets LWOP or DP? I don't have a way to have an opinion on that because I no longer believe in the death penalty in general.

The reason I think the VSS and DP/DR is important to analyze by criminologists/psych field/etc is because I think it played a huge role in forming the person he became and leading to his actions. And that's what we are always hoping to do, isn't it--figure out what kind of person kills others....what factors released them from the typical moral codes? Try to figure out more about the brain?
I respect your thoughts on the VSS matter. I believe the State will have enough evidence to prove BK was a troubled, potential threat from an early age that had nothing to do with VSS.

If it is proven and verified he had it by professionals, it still would not not mitigate homicidal ideation.

IMO
 
I promise this will be my last post about VSS & DP/DR if at all possible. <modsnip>:)

TLDR--VSS didn't make BK kill people. The associated depersonalization/derealization that came from the VSS and happened during his formative early teen socialization years was likely a major factor in shaping him into the person he became. And the person he became is accused of murdering 4 people. I'm not interested in it as a mitigating factor or anything to do with sentencing. However, their mitigating specialist may bring the VSS+DP/DR up, and I felt it was important to provide people accurate information about this rare disorder.
-----
My interest in BK and the seeming diagnosis of VSS plus DP/DR has nothing to do with the mitigation phase for sentencing. I am interested in it because I'm interested in who this person is and what are some of the factors that shaped him. We all come to true crime for different reasons--interest in the legal processes, interest in criminal psych, interest in amplifying victims' names, crime prevention, etc. I want to be very very clear on this--visual snow syndrome in and of itself did not make BK or anyone commit murder.

It is a syndrome that is hard to diagnose and treat because many of its causes are unknown--migraines can do it, medications can cause it, inflammation of the blood vessels in the eyes can cause it, some people who take hallucinogenic drugs can develop a version of it(HPPD). But those aforementioned "known" causes can only be identified in a small percentage of sufferers. Which is why finding a treatment to help it so hard and often not successful.

Depersonalization/derealization is something that many people with VSS end up experiencing. It can be anywhere from mild to severe. It tends to be present more often and more severe in individuals who have existing mental health disorders like OCD or anxiety/depression or a genetic disposition to those disorders. And I suspect that we are going to find out a lot about BK's mental health history.

Important points:
1) VSS affects people differently--some VSS folk have BETTER vision at night because they are dealing with less glare from lights and the static becomes harder to see when there is less light contrast. Some VSS people are better in the day but still need darkening glasses/lenses to help deal with the glare. IT VARIES, and some doctors think the day/night vision depends on what caused the VSS in that person.
2) People who have depersonalization/derealization, even very severe cases, are usually EXCELLENT at masking in public situations. And the longer a person has DP/DR, the better they get at masking. I think this quote sums it up very well: "...people with DPD often do not appear at all unwell or different to even their closest acquaintances; despite experiencing a total lack of empathy, friends and family do not notice any marked change. The person with DPD is often able to sleepwalk through daily life, and even to maintain close relationships, but is robbed of the emotional peaks and troughs of normal human existence. It only enhances sensations of detachment." Depersonalisation disorder: the condition you’ve never heard of that affects millions

Yes, he got his associates degree and then his bachelor's and master's at a not very big university. Part of that time was during lockdown so his classes were virtual. His glowing review was from a professor (Dr. Ramsland) that he had for an online class and didn't interact with face to face. Heck, that criminal survey people saw online was for his thesis...which he wasn't going to be able to finish because he didn't start doing the survey early enough/get enough results, so his professor/advisor had to help him change the thesis enough to be able to finish it another way. Yes, he had a job for a few years--as a school security guard in the district where his parents worked (not sure if at the same school as where his mom worked). A job where he was put in a tiny position of power, a job without lots of responsibilities/deadlines, a job that didn't require him to be a people pleaser to get by. A job where minor infractions might be overlooked because his parents worked there and people liked them. A person being able to function is not the best barometer of what is going on inside.

I feel like I'm in the movie Clue and need to shout "VSS was just a red herring!" It's not the VSS itself you need to look at--it's what comes along with VSS and how a person's mental health reacts to it that is important in this scenario. And in many cases, and as self described by BK (we believe), that is depersonalization/derealization.

No, I'm not a medical professional. But my son lives with this, so I've talked to numerous medical professionals that he has seen at some very well known teaching hospitals, and he's been through the whole gamut of testing. And no, my son's experience with VSS+DP/DR (and OCD) isn't universal. However, for going on 6 years now I have read and participated in message boards about VSS and DP/DR and seen the spectrum of what those with it experience and express in their own words. And from reading their posts about their lives, I have to say that the Tapatalk posts that are said to be BK's ring of truth.

As to how VSS+DP/DR can lead to violence...I've seen it up close and personal in much much smaller ways in my own house. (EDITED to delete personal story)
 
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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

... the DNA did not have to be confirmed prior to arrest because the actual arrest affidavit did not include any DNA because LE enforcement did not know if the DNA could even be used in trial.

It says all this right in the PCA.

This case had enough to arrest BK for 4 murders without the DNA.

If anything was wrong with the DNA Anne Taylor would have been writing 100 Motions to exclude it. Where are all these DNA Motions? I see zero.

What does she do? She actually admits that this is BK's DNA.

Circumstantial evidence alone convicts killers and DNA alone convicts killers all with no alibi.

AT Taylor knows there is enough circumstantial evidence to convict her client and that there is enough DNA to convict her client so what is she doing? She is doing the only thing left to do....

She is desperately trying to get him an alibi. She is using Sy for this.

If the jury thinks it is beyond a reasonable doubt that BK was on King Rd then expect to see a Penalty Phase Trial.

(How I see it)
 
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