A Pre Meditated Murder? or Accidental?

[TURBOTHINK]

I always see these references to an "accidental" chloroform death. There is nothing "accidental" about OD'ing your child on chloroform, intentionally or not. Chloroform is a controlled substance and you can't just go to Target and buy it like baby Benedryl. IF, IF, IF I was going to drug my toddler for oartying (never, never, never) I'd go that route first. Chloroform is a dangerous, powerful pollutant and it's unpredictable. Even if KC read a lot of Nancy Drew as a young child, she'd know that chloroform is generally used in nefarious ways. It's not like you're having trouble sleeping at night and are all "Oh, I'm out of Tylenol PM. Thank goodness I have this unmarked container of chloroform in heavy plastic."

Maybe she did use it for sex. Kids today! I'm not that much older than KC and I've never seen it used around here for such things. Of course, I'm not that much of a party girl. Anyway, moving on.

Maybe accidents can happen to sociopaths, too, but it would have been the easiest way to stage this. IMO we'll learn there was something in that bag (or something else unreleased) that points directly to homicide. And of course, KC would know that. I don't think she's the genius that some make her out to be, but she's not stupid. She didn't know if and when they'd find Caylee. She didn't know how much decomposition would hae occured by that point. If she feared that the real COD would be apparent to the ME, she'd have no choice than to stage a kidnapping. She had to, because it's very possible they've already discovered that this was no accident.

I do believe that she could have intentionally OD'd her on Chloroform, as it'd be a "clean" passive way to kill someone. But maybe she was like me. I mean, I didn't know that you needed soft tissue to test for its presence. I figured it would have been detectable in hair. So unless she used it a lot, it wouldn't necessarily show up. Maybe Casey didn't do enough research. She thought it'd be present no matter what. I just think it's interesting that most non-violent storybook kidnappings, chloroform is involved.

(bolded by me)

I so totally agree!!! I believe the reason she could not stage a kidnapping or have the body found at the time of death was because the body was full of drug residue. I believe she was smart enough to know that a drug screen would have been run and she would have been indicted just from that.

She also could have been involved in something very illegal and knew that would come out also. I keep seeing in the back of my mind the references to men she stayed with talking about Caylee disappearing in the middle of the night. What was she doing with that baby in the day and the middle of the night? The duct tape made me very suspicious of kiddy *advertiser censored*.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

or Baez could be calling all the shots and keeping her away from everyone so she won't break down. QUOTE]

I have often wondered how much control Baez has over Casey. What if Casey wanted to confess but was advised not to, because Baez would have to be removed from the case. OF course, he wants to keep his name and face out there. I think the family should really question his motives and what is telling Casey...It all seems fishy to me!

Maybe Baez is holding the truth hostage because he wants to be superhero!

We know that GA could not stand him, so there is something there.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Your entirely reasonable question works hard against a premeditated murder.

Not really, that could have been her plan originally and it all fell through after the big fight on the 15th. She killed her before the next plan was hatched.

Most likely she was told by CA not to come back to the house and she would have gained no sympathy from anyone in the family if she did and the child drown. I believe she went into a rage and killed Caylee right there in the house the afternoon of the 16th. That was when her plan fell apart.

 

[waiting4change]

I use to believe it was probably an accident, once stuff started coming out (web searches of cloro, missing kids, how to break a neck, etc.) I changed my mind. Another HUGE thing for me was Tony's comment about not wanting daughters. I think this put the nail in the coffin so to say for me, or the comments she made while in jail. "all they want is Caylee back". Then of course she had to add that she wants that too, but we all know that was not the case.

 

[Bev]

Good topic - this is going to be the key question to this case, probably because we'll never know what happened. She'll never give this up. There are a few scenarios that fit the parameters, premeditated and accidental.

 

[Baznme]

I haven't brought this up until now but this seems to be the appropriate thread to do so. In all the pictures I've seen of KC and Caylee together while interacting, I've noticed a look of apprehension on Caylee's face, or a look of a half baked smile with gritted teeth on KC's part or while in play on the floor, she (KC) tends to overdo the tickling to the point of Caylee's trying to get away from her with no laughing or giggling. There are the video's also where no one is talking to Caylee. (My guess is it's KC taking those videos). I don't think KC's feelings were ever anything other than jealousy and resentment. CA claims that they were going away for a few days to bond. If KC and Caylee hadn't bonded by the time Caylee was 2 years and 10 months old, what made her think it would happen then? She (CA) knew their relationship was not normal for a mother and daughter.

I believe KC whole-heartedly planned on finding a way of disposing of Caylee with all her research and she set up the pool for Caylee to gain easy access. She couldn't be at fault as she had to appear to be the "good mother" so she staged the kidnapping. It would have been much more difficult to prove "premeditation" with a drowning rather than this elaborate concoction of lies. The duct tape clinched it for me. This was no accident.

 

[ecs5298]

One of the TH psychologists on NG said that KC lives her live 10 minutes at a time. I don't think she thinks far enough ahead to premeditate a murder months in advance. I really believe that the web searches are related to finding the "Win her over with Chloroform" pic on RM's myspace page. According to JWG, her searching and browsing on the subjects lasted about 12 minutes. That's about KC's attention span. I imagine that KC fantasized about not having Caylee around, may have even fantasized about killing her but I don't think she had a plan. I think whatever happened on 7/15 to 7/16 was done in a spur of the moment rage and when it was over she probably thought "Oh f&ck! I'm going to be in a world of chit over this" and started the coverup. I'm really beginning to think that the SA's office is going to have a real hard time proving premediation, especially with no witnesses to the actual killing and no confession from KC as to what really happened. I believe they should probably adjust their charges accordingly. JMHO as always.

 

[madeleine]

I haven't brought this up until now but this seems to be the appropriate thread to do so. In all the pictures I've seen of KC and Caylee together while interacting, I've noticed a look of apprehension on Caylee's face, or a look of a half baked smile with gritted teeth on KC's part or while in play on the floor, she (KC) tends to overdo the tickling to the point of Caylee's trying to get away from her with no laughing or giggling. There are the video's also where no one is talking to Caylee. (My guess is it's KC taking those videos). I don't think KC's feelings were ever anything other than jealousy and resentment. CA claims that they were going away for a few days to bond. If KC and Caylee hadn't bonded by the time Caylee was 2 years and 10 months old, what made her think it would happen then? She (CA) knew their relationship was not normal for a mother and daughter.

I believe KC whole-heartedly planned on finding a way of disposing of Caylee with all her research and she set up the pool for Caylee to gain easy access. She couldn't be at fault as she had to appear to be the "good mother" so she staged the kidnapping.

IMO she didn't stage anything,she's too lazy for that,she just came up with this nanny story out of the blue.

 

[ecs5298]

One of the TH psychologists on NG said that KC lives her live 10 minutes at a time. I don't think she thinks far enough ahead to premeditate a murder months in advance. I really believe that the web searches are related to finding the "Win her over with Chloroform" pic on RM's myspace page. According to JWG, her searching and browsing on the subjects lasted about 12 minutes. That's about KC's attention span. I imagine that KC fantasized about not having Caylee around, may have even fantasized about killing her but I don't think she had a plan. I think whatever happened on 7/15 to 7/16 was done in a spur of the moment rage and when it was over she probably thought "Oh f&ck! I'm going to be in a world of chit over this" and started the coverup. I'm really beginning to think that the SA's office is going to have a real hard time proving premediation, especially with no witnesses to the actual killing and no confession from KC as to what really happened. I believe they should probably adjust their charges accordingly. JMHO as always.

 

[laurieann]

My theory on why she didn't stage an accident is that it would still look like the baby died in her care. IMO, she went with the kidnapping story to try to feign innocence and gain sympathy. If she would have staged an accident, yes she would have gained some sympathy, but it would also look like she was very negligent with her child and we all know that KC doesn't want to make herself look bad. Everything backfired on her in the long run. JMO!!

 

[ecs5298]

One of the TH psychologists on NG said that KC lives her live 10 minutes at a time. I don't think she thinks far enough ahead to premeditate a murder months in advance. I really believe that the web searches are related to finding the "Win her over with Chloroform" pic on RM's myspace page. According to JWG, her searching and browsing on the subjects lasted about 12 minutes. That's about KC's attention span. I imagine that KC fantasized about not having Caylee around, may have even fantasized about killing her but I don't think she had a plan. I think whatever happened on 7/15 to 7/16 was done in a spur of the moment rage and when it was over she probably thought "Oh f&ck! I'm going to be in a world of chit over this" and started the coverup. I'm really beginning to think that the SA's office is going to have a real hard time proving premediation, especially with no witnesses to the actual killing and no confession from KC as to what really happened. I believe they should probably adjust their charges accordingly. JMHO as always.

 

[madeleine]

What evidence is there that she STAGED a kidnapping?
IMO she made the nanny story up after it happened.

 

[laurieann]

My theory on why she didn't stage an accident is that it would still look like the baby died in her care. IMO, she went with the kidnapping story to try to feign innocence and gain sympathy. If she would have staged an accident, yes she would have gained some sympathy, but it would also look like she was very negligent with her child and we all know that KC doesn't want to make herself look bad. Everything backfired on her in the long run. JMO!!

 

[Wudge]

Not really, that could have been her plan originally and it all fell through after the big fight on the 15th. She killed her before the next plan was hatched.

Most likely she was told by CA not to come back to the house and she would have gained no sympathy from anyone in the family if she did and the child drown. I believe she went into a rage and killed Caylee right there in the house the afternoon of the 16th. That was when her plan fell apart.

Total speculation.

 

[laurieann]

My theory is she didn't stage an accident because she would have looked bad since Caylee would have been with her at the time. Sure she would have garnered some sympathy, but she knew she would also look negligent at the same time. By staging a kidnapping she could play the innocent victim. Everything backfired on her in the long run. We all know that KC doesn't want to look bad to anyone. JMO!!

 

[laurieann]

My theory is she didn't stage an accident because she would have looked bad since Caylee would have been with her at the time. Sure she would have garnered some sympathy, but she knew she would also look negligent at the same time. By staging a kidnapping she could play the innocent victim. Everything backfired on her in the long run. We all know that KC doesn't want to look bad to anyone. JMO!!

 

[madeleine]

If you wanna stage a kidnapping you don't dump the body so close to home.Look at the Ramsey case.

 

[NancyT]

Ultimately, Casey can go with the accidental death scenario, BUT, she will have to take the stand and show that the cover up was due to panic. Since it appears the defense is sticking with the, "nanny did it" scenario, I think this is very unlikely. Casey, IMO, will NEVER acknowledge that she played any part in all of this.

It's my opinion that Casey was so used to everyone just buying her lies without question her entire life, that she NEVER even considered that LE might question what she said. That doesn't make her too bright, IMO.

I've also wondered if those searches for escort services weren't run (assuming Lee did not run them), for purposes of Casey finding a quick easy way to turn a buck if she needed to flee the Orlando area.

IMO, there is just too much stacked up here to believe that Casey is innocent. If she were so fearful that Caylee and her family would be hurt if she spoke up, why didn't she plead with Cindy to not call 911 when she did? That alone shows her entire story is concocted and she was not fearful for anyone's safety.

The bottom line is, Casey isn't as smart as she thought she was. Till Caylee's remains were found, I believe she thought things would work out to her advantage. I'm sure Baez told her how damning finding Caylee's remains would be to her defense. Thus the breakdown at that point.

 

[daisy7]

I agree 100%.

She likes the drama and wanted to play the victim, maybe even get some money out of it. A (planned) accidental drowning wouldn't provide that for her. :chicken:

If she REALLY wanted to play the victim, why did she not tell anybody immediately??

 

[TURBOTHINK]

no...no no....not an accident...are you kidding me? no way. Casey is all about self preservation...she would have immediatley distanced herself...she would have immediatley screamed ACCIDENT the minute they nabbed her. No...she planned and planned...the fight was the catalyst.

they keep trying to soften this with the sleeping in the trunk theroy. The child was dead already. She never slept in the trunk and I don't beleive George saw them the morn of the 16th. He is either trying to skew the timeline or his memory is confused.

we are going to see alot of evidence coming out on that little body...I think she killed her little girl after the fight that very night. i think she experimented with the chloroform on Amy and was planning to get rid of her parents too...There would have been a trail of bodies following this young black widow.

remember...women are poisioners. I would like to see the life insurance and wills that the A's had in place at the time of all this.

I believe you are so on target here...........