A Pre Meditated Murder? or Accidental?

[elementary]

Not if you take into account Casey's MO. None of her criminal doings are planned or carried out in an organized or thoughtful way.

Casey steals checks from her best friend. She is videotaped signing her own name to the checks. Casey shows her family a forged bank deposit ticket and tells them she has replaced money she stole.

Casey PLANNED to use Amy's checks...those were not spur of the moment crimes. She had time to think about what she was going to do after she rifled through Amy's car and came across the checkbook. Casey spent some effort forging the deposit ticket, too.

Just because Casey is a sloppy murderer and thief who didn't come up up with better lies to cover up what she did doesn't rule out premeditation. Sensible people avoid possible consequences by not doing the crimes.

I agree. I think the perp's behaviour shows cunning, a survival instinct, that has little to do with intelligence. Cunning is about deceit and intrigue; it is a way of life for the perp.

I googled this definition of "cunning": Cunning implies a shrewd, often instinctive skill in concealing or disguising the real purposes of one’s actions. The outcome, however, is less predictable- it doesn't imply success at every turn. In other words, you don't have to be smart to be cunning.

 

[Devon]

This is true, especially when you realize that she had done previous searches for ZFG in the months prior. I think that shows the plan all along was to blame someone else.

The searches for ZFG where done on JULY 16, the day after her mother called 911, and were done by a member of the family (probably CA) trying to investigate KC's story. The computer file itself was created much earlier, but the ZFG search post-dated Caylee's disappearance. Confusing but true! :waitasec:

 

[Fridawolf]

ITA with the part of your comment I have bolded. I really don't see any validity in the speculation that KC deliberately killed Caylee so that she could live the 'free and single' life. She could simply have handed custody to CA/GA to achieve this, as she herself acknowledges.

I am also not convinced that Caylee was killed to spite CA. We have heard about the alleged tensions and arguments between them and the supposed (unconfirmed) argument of the 15 June but IMO KC is very emotionally dependant on her mother (even though she may tell others she hates her) and I think that above and despite all, KC needs CA's approval and love. I just don't think she would deliberately do something that would destroy that forever.

I think that an accident occurred when KC was not paying attention to Caylee, and that in KC's mind it doesn't matter how Caylee died because she believes her mother will never forgive her, irrespective of the circumstances, and this is why she has invented a story where someone else is responsible.

She claims that by not talking she is protecting the family from harm, but IMO she is protecting herself from CA's wrath. I think this is also why she says she feels 'safer' in jail, and why she has refused to see her family since the early visits took place. She is emotionally immature, a coward, a liar and a thief - but I am yet to be convinced that she is also a cold-blooded killer.

You know, I really agree with you here. Every time I go down the path of premeditation, I end up back here. Every instinct I have tells me this was an accident--maybe due to drugging Klee--but whatever caused Klee's death I think shocked KC and freaked her out. She couldn't deal with the reality of the situation--wasn't about to own up to it...she then went down this crazy, reckless road of fabrication and blame. I think KC is a lot of things but not a cold-blooded murderer. I think this whole thing is a nightmare for all of them.

 

[Jolynna]

Nothing here represents evidence of a premeditated murder or an MO.

Being sloppy is absolutely Casey's MO.

How many people write their own names on forged checks? Or think they can say they deposited $4K in an account and that nobody will notice when they don't?

I think leaving Caylee close to her house and being too prissy and lazy to make more effort at body hiding is very similar to Casey's pitifully dumb way of stealing.

Maybe you don't see a similar pattern but I sure do.

JMO

 

[JWG]

The searches for ZFG where done on JULY 16, the day after her mother called 911, and were done by a member of the family (probably CA) trying to investigate KC's story. The computer file itself was created much earlier, but the ZFG search post-dated Caylee's disappearance. Confusing but true! :waitasec:

They were done by GA on 7/16. He told it to the FBI in his interview. Specifically said he went onto the computer to see if he could figure out who this ZFG was that KC said was the nanny.

 

[Jolynna]

I, personally, don't believe that KC was drugging Caylee. But, IF she was, a drug profile showing drugs in Caylee's system (when her remains were eventually found) "could" somewhat substantiate the "bad" nanny doing it and then taking Caylee for whatever reason.

My biggest question is, WHY did KC stay in Orlando if she wanted to cover up a pre-meditated murder of her daughter, or even cover up an accidental death??

Casey told Tony she HAD a back up plan. She was tentatively setting Mark H. up.

But, I think Casey thought she would have SOME warning before things came to a head and she had to do the back up plan.

In the meantime Casey was happily playing house and nightclubbing. But, if it came to it, I think she would have robbed anyone and everyone, including Tony, to save her own skin and get out of town.

JMO

 

[MomofBoys]

She could simply have handed custody to CA/GA to achieve this, as she herself acknowledges.

I tend to disagree. If CA has always held the threat of taking Caylee over KC's head, I could almost see it being a motive itself.

I know we heard reference to it on the 911 call, but going back to the pregnancy, I'm willing to bet that CA offered/threatened to get custody more than once. If KC truly wanted to give Caylee up (or even if she just told her mother that) then I could see a tremendous amount of resentment there. Maybe she wanted to give up Caylee on her own terms and was angry at her parents for using Caylee as a weapon against her. Maybe she saw Caylee less as a daughter, but more as something that came between KC and her parents. Maybe she resented CA's attention to Caylee. It likely wouldn't sit well with a narcissist.

I think she loved and hated Caylee, just as she loves and hates Cindy. The killing of one accomplished more than the other, though. Freedom, the spotlight, and punishment.

I know that's a whole lot of speculation, but I don't view speculation as a dirty word. It's what we all do. I just find it interesting that in notorious cases of filicide that moms tend to kill their children frequently so they can get more freedom or keep a man or because of jealousy. I frequent a health board where a woman posted that she was considering terminating her [advanced] pregnancy because she found out the baby was a girl. She couldn't stand the prospect of having a "daddy's little girl" and having him dote on her, because SHE wanted to be doted on. She wanted to be the only female in her husband's life.

There are people out there like that, and I think Casey might be one of them. If CA really did pay for most of their expenses, and everything to do with Caylee's care, then not only might that have been held over her head, but she probably both needed and resented the dependence. Maybe she saw Caylee more as a sister than a daughter, and "sister" Caylee was getting the attention she craved. People probably commented on how cute she was and how pretty she was, etc. I think KC didn't want the responsibility or the competition, and in the weird dynamics of the A family, Caylee was both.

BTW, Devon, my name is Devon and I just adopted a dog named Devon. Weird, huh?

 

[Devon]

They were done by GA on 7/16. He told it to the FBI in his interview. Specifically said he went onto the computer to see if he could figure out who this ZFG was that KC said was the nanny.

Thank you JWG!

 

[CBTampa]

I think that KC got busy texting and on the computer and neglected Caylee. Two year olds have to be watched constantly. I think that something happened and she tried to get ahold of her parents. Why she didn't immediately call 911 is beyond me.

We all know that she had plans with TL that evening. Maybe she didn't want anything to interrupt her plans with him. So, she waited and by the next day it was to late, how would she explain that. Then she went into the coverup mode. IMO

 

[believe09]

Fascinating split when you look at the poll results-65% think it was premeditated to the rest who don't or don't know. If for a moment we consider the possibility that this is representative of the jury pool, we have maybe 8 jurors who would buy premeditation and 4 who are not convinced by what we have seen so far. I wonder if this might be what has prevented the prosecution from seeking the DP....just a thought. Then again, my math skills are not strong so my logic might be terribly flawed, lol...

If we have seen the best of the forensics, then it makes sense to avoid the DP....JMO. If we have not, I wonder when the prosecutors will go for it??

 

[Devon]

BTW, Devon, my name is Devon and I just adopted a dog named Devon. Weird, huh?

I live in Devon (UK), home of the Pilgrim Fathers, Sir Francis Drake and Sir Walter Raleigh!

 

[debs]

Total speculation.

Stickler

 

[Jolynna]

ITA with the part of your comment I have bolded. I really don't see any validity in the speculation that KC deliberately killed Caylee so that she could live the 'free and single' life. She could simply have handed custody to CA/GA to achieve this, as she herself acknowledges.

I am also not convinced that Caylee was killed to spite CA. We have heard about the alleged tensions and arguments between them and the supposed (unconfirmed) argument of the 15 June but IMO KC is very emotionally dependant on her mother (even though she may tell others she hates her) and I think that above and despite all, KC needs CA's approval and love. I just don't think she would deliberately do something that would destroy that forever.

I think that an accident occurred when KC was not paying attention to Caylee, and that in KC's mind it doesn't matter how Caylee died because she believes her mother will never forgive her, irrespective of the circumstances, and this is why she has invented a story where someone else is responsible.

She claims that by not talking she is protecting the family from harm, but IMO she is protecting herself from CA's wrath. I think this is also why she says she feels 'safer' in jail, and why she has refused to see her family since the early visits took place. She is emotionally immature, a coward, a liar and a thief - but I am yet to be convinced that she is also a cold-blooded killer.

In response to the part I bolded...No, Casey could not give Caylee to Cindy any more than S. Peterson could divorce his *pregnant*, pretty wife...what would people think?

Just like Casey would rather *pretend* to have a prestigious job than a real one that was beneath her, I believe Casey wanted Caylee to just be gone without muss or fuss. Casey didn't even bother to call and say she lost Caylee in the park or that Caylee fell in the pool (that would have cut into movie night with Tony).

No way, would a person who would rather steal than work at an unclassy job want her friends to know she was an *unfit* mother who *gave up* her baby. Cindy would win and be proven right.

IMO

 

[MomofBoys]

I live in Devon (UK), home of the Pilgrim Fathers, Sir Francis Drake and Sir Walter Raleigh!

I was named after Devon in the UK and have lived in Raleigh. Heh.

We all know that she had plans with TL that evening. Maybe she didn't want anything to interrupt her plans with him. So, she waited and by the next day it was to late, how would she explain that. Then she went into the coverup mode. IMO

Maybe, but then we're faced with the prospect of a total and complete sociopath that accidentally killed her child. It's like working in a firing range but never having fired a gun. I suppose it's possible, but what are the odds?

I mean, the kid is dead anyway. She'd have the rest of her life to spend with him, Caylee-free. I'd think she'd want to get the messy stuff over with.

 

[Jolynna]

I agree that Casey didn't form a better story about what happened to Caylee because she didn't want to interrupt her plans with Tony.

Simple as that.

LE and ambulances are a lot of bother. Casey would have had to stay home and comfort her family.Casy was "in love" and overwhelmed with the *need* to be with her new man every second.

Caylee went away in a manner that was convenient and easy for Casey.

IMO

 

[Devon]

Fascinating split when you look at the poll results-65% think it was premeditated to the rest who don't or don't know. If for a moment we consider the possibility that this is representative of the jury pool, we have maybe 8 jurors who would buy premeditation and 4 who are not convinced by what we have seen so far. I wonder if this might be what has prevented the prosecution from seeking the DP....just a thought. Then again, my math skills are not strong so my logic might be terribly flawed, lol...

If we have seen the best of the forensics, then it makes sense to avoid the DP....JMO. If we have not, I wonder when the prosecutors will go for it??

I would also be interested to know how many of the 65% approx. who believe this was a premeditated murder have based their opinions solely on the facts and evidence and not allowed emotion, speculation and rumour to colour their evaluations. Since jurors have to do this, I think it likely that the split between guilty and not guilty of premed. could be quite different to what we have here in an informal poll.

I have a feeling that there is not going to be very much more produced in the way of evidence to support the charge of murder1 and I won't be surprised if the charges are revised in the near future. That's just my own hunch and I could be wrong.

 

[shannahg]

I tend to disagree. If CA has always held the threat of taking Caylee over KC's head, I could almost see it being a motive itself.

I know we heard reference to it on the 911 call, but going back to the pregnancy, I'm willing to bet that CA offered/threatened to get custody more than once. If KC truly wanted to give Caylee up (or even if she just told her mother that) then I could see a tremendous amount of resentment there. Maybe she wanted to give up Caylee on her own terms and was angry at her parents for using Caylee as a weapon against her. Maybe she saw Caylee less as a daughter, but more as something that came between KC and her parents. Maybe she resented CA's attention to Caylee. It likely wouldn't sit well with a narcissist.

I think she loved and hated Caylee, just as she loves and hates Cindy. The killing of one accomplished more than the other, though. Freedom, the spotlight, and punishment.

I know that's a whole lot of speculation, but I don't view speculation as a dirty word. It's what we all do. I just find it interesting that in notorious cases of filicide that moms tend to kill their children frequently so they can get more freedom or keep a man or because of jealousy. I frequent a health board where a woman posted that she was considering terminating her [advanced] pregnancy because she found out the baby was a girl. She couldn't stand the prospect of having a "daddy's little girl" and having him dote on her, because SHE wanted to be doted on. She wanted to be the only female in her husband's life.

There are people out there like that, and I think Casey might be one of them. If CA really did pay for most of their expenses, and everything to do with Caylee's care, then not only might that have been held over her head, but she probably both needed and resented the dependence. Maybe she saw Caylee more as a sister than a daughter, and "sister" Caylee was getting the attention she craved. People probably commented on how cute she was and how pretty she was, etc. I think KC didn't want the responsibility or the competition, and in the weird dynamics of the A family, Caylee was both.

BTW, Devon, my name is Devon and I just adopted a dog named Devon. Weird, huh?

Good post. I think you're dead on with your analysis. I have a friend who divorced her husband because of jealousy over the daughter and even stated that as her reasoning behind it - she felt that she should have been - and wasn't - number 1. I felt it as an unfounded insecurity, and her "examples" to back up her theory were just silly, IMO. I could see someone in that frame of mind getting 'rid of' the competition. I believe that Casey was one of those people. I also feel that Casey was too happy-go-lucky after the fact, zero remorse. That is the slap in the face for me where KC is concerned. I feel the evidence points to murder, premeditated. It would have been "too convenient" that Caylee suddenly fell in the pool or accidentally died from chloroform sedation at a time when KC clearly wanted to have her out of her hair. Motive for murder: jealousy (parents doting over Caylee), freedom (to pursue the various men she had relationships with). This is all JMO

 

[kageykaren]

I feel CA confided in some form of friend about KC and they pointed her in the direction of talking to a therapist. I feel CA went to a counselor to learn how to deal with (control) KC. Instead she was told to seek custody because her daughter appeared to be sociopathic. I Believe this took CA back alittle because she thought she might learn new ways (Therapy) she could use to change the climate in the house. You gotta love CA's stamina! By the time CA is given a solution to the problem by her therapist KC had already started to run ammuck like a locomotive with no engineer.

 

[CentralFLMama]

I have always believed it was premeditated. What evidence is there of an accident? I generally assume murders are premeditated unless I hear otherwise. She didnt call to report her daughter missing for 31 days. Oh wait - no she didnt. Grandma did that. In addition to that, if it had been accident she would have broken down by now. No way.

 

[Sammi99]

If Caylee's death was due to an accident, I can't understand why her attorney has not given her better legal advice. Why didn't they admit to an accident and avoid having the state go as far as charging her for Murder 1? Her attorney is doing her a major disservice by risking her freedom. This case is not black and white, her culpability is somewhere in between so why is he making this an all or nothing case?