A Pre Meditated Murder? or Accidental?

[stagehand]

Reply to Nancy...

That's a good theory and a motive that would provide her a win on all three, freedom, revenge, and attention.

If it was the plan she sure screwed it up. If she had immediately gotten rid of the body and immediately screamed "OMG, my daughter has been kidnapped" it would have been a completely different story. That is until some of the forensic evidence which would have been sure to come out did.

I have doubts that we will ever know the full truth.

 

[nancy botwin]

Reply to Nancy...

That's a good theory and a motive that would provide her a win on all three, freedom, revenge, and attention.

If it was the plan she sure screwed it up. If she had immediately gotten rid of the body and immediately screamed "OMG, my daughter has been kidnapped" it would have been a completely different story. That is until some of the forensic evidence which would have been sure to come out did.

I have doubts that we will ever know the full truth.

I have doubts we'll ever know the full truth too. Unfortunately.
And I agree that Casey really did screw up if this was indeed her plan. I think she might have planned to sound the alarm on the fake kidnapping much earlier, but "flurries of calls" weren't answered, she got lazy and then she started thinking there really wasn't any harm in delaying the inevitable-- she could go out, free and unencumbered by her daughter; she could contemplate various ways the story would go; she could even contemplate an escape route for disappearing and starting a new life.
Her extreme lack of foresight and need for constant and swift gratification (IMO psychopathic traits) severely handicaps her ability to plan and execute an elaborate plan. Her complete lack of insight (IMO another psychopathic trait) makes her unable to see how absurd her plan is/was and how incomprehensible it is to others.
The only thing that has surprised me about Casey is that I really thought she'd be a better actress.

 

[Puzzler]

What would the motive behind premeditation be? The duct tape is very convincing that it was premeditated. I still don't understand the motive. C'mon. Casey is not insane. We've all gotten mad at kids for being annoying, but we didn't kill them. It's not like she killed her out of revenge, for money, out of passion, idk. Can anyone point to a motive behind a premeditated murder that makes sense? (other than insanity)

As I understand it, premeditation in law can even be a matter of mere moments - a decision to commit murder is made and then acted out.

There are two big reasons for premeditation that make sense to me: 1) She wanted to go live with TonE and he didn't want a child living there - in order to go, she needed to not have a child, 2) KC and CA had a very dysfunctional and emotional relationship: they were vying over Klee as to who was a better mother to the little girl, who Klee loved more, etc.; if KC gave custody to CA then CA would "win" - and KC really *is* a spiteful b**ch who couldn't stand to see that happen.

Also KC is narcissistic, and narcissistic mothers tend to view their children as an extension of themselves. (IIRC KC even said "we're like the same little person" at some point in the jail interviews) As a result, they feel they have a right to do whatever they want to them.

 

[nancy botwin]

As I understand it, premeditation in law can even be a matter of mere moments - a decision to commit murder is made and then acted out.

There are two big reasons for premeditation that make sense to me: 1) She wanted to go live with TonE and he didn't want a child living there - in order to go, she needed to not have a child, 2) KC and CA had a very dysfunctional and emotional relationship: they were vying over Klee as to who was a better mother to the little girl, who Klee loved more, etc.; if KC gave custody to CA then CA would "win" - and KC really *is* a spiteful b**ch who couldn't stand to see that happen.

Also KC is narcissistic, and narcissistic mothers tend to view their children as an extension of themselves. (IIRC KC even said "we're like the same little person" at some point in the jail interviews) As a result, they feel they have a right to do whatever they want to them.

Very good point re: "the same little person" comment. That statement and its context were quite chilling.

 

[stagehand]

.
The only thing that has surprised me about Casey is that I really thought she'd be a better actress.

Yeah, not exactly academy award material. I've known a few perpetual liars in my life and most of them could spin a pretty good tail much of the time. I remember when I first read the transcripts before I ever heard any audio, before I had drawn any conclusions about the case whatsoever, and thinking this girl is an awful liar.

Then when I watch the jail house videos, its like she is not even trying to be convincing. In the big picture probably not much of significance, just very weird to me.

 

[stagehand]

Also KC is narcissistic, and narcissistic mothers tend to view their children as an extension of themselves. (IIRC KC even said "we're like the same little person" at some point in the jail interviews) As a result, they feel they have a right to do whatever they want to them.

That just made me think of another potential motive again related to her craving of attention. When a mother has a new born baby she receives lots of attention. I thought about this a little too the other night watching the dateline show. When JG said he tried to talk her into giving up the baby, but she wouldn't go for that. Why? I think because she knew having a baby around would bring her attention.

However as a baby grows to become a toddler and eventually to a young child, the attention the mother receives wanes. While always an extension of the child's mother, as a child matures the child's becomes her own person. Again speaking of the motive of attention and apologies because this is dark, perhaps in her mind, her child was outgrowing her usefulness.

 

[crazylovemonkee]

I have always felt like this was a premediated act from the beginning. Premeditation can happen within just a few minutes. It doesn't have to be planned for a long period of time. The fact that she hid from her family for 31 days tells me she is guilty and she did it alone. Any mother would never do that in itself. Then the documents came out slowly and that confirmed my thoughts. The fact that duct tape was found over the mouth area makes my feeloingeven stronger. She couldn't stand to hear the baby suffer. Do I think she sedated Caylee?? I am on the fence about that one.. part of me says she did because that would be more humane.. but this is KC we are speaking of.. and if she was in a fit of rage.. I can see her taping Caylee's mouth shut and breaking her neck in revenge to her anger toward her mother.

Sorry for such a graphic post.... I suspose the forensics will tell everyone the truth... I can't wait until the truth is revealed.

 

[Theonly1]

Very good point re: "the same little person" comment. That statement and its context were quite chilling.

Casey sounded jealous when she made the comment. I think Casey was totally jealous of Caylee regarding the attention the GP's were showing her and maybe even the money that went to Caylee and not Casey. In my opinion, Casey certainly did not like GA and CA coming down on her about how she was parenting Caylee (or lack thereof).

 

[beckaroozie]

The good thing is....premeditation or not....according to the OC Prosecutor that was on GR earlier, they have something called Felony Murder in FL. If a death occurs during the commission of certain felonies, whether premeditated or not, then the perp can still be charged with Murder 1 with the DP. In Caylee's death, KC was allegedly (being pc only - we all know) committing AGGRAVATED CHILD ABUSE, so therefore she qualifies for Murder 1 and the DP, if prosecution pursues it.

 

[Puzzler]

That just made me think of another potential motive again related to her craving of attention. When a mother has a new born baby she receives lots of attention. I thought about this a little too the other night watching the dateline show. When JG said he tried to talk her into giving up the baby, but she wouldn't go for that. Why? I think because she knew having a baby around would bring her attention.

However as a baby grows to become a toddler and eventually to a young child, the attention the mother receives wanes. While always an extension of the child's mother, as a child matures the child's becomes her own person. Again speaking of the motive of attention and apologies because this is dark, perhaps in her mind, her child was outgrowing her usefulness.

I think that's a very good point! And as others have pointed out, her attention-getting darling baby was also talking now, something not at *all* useful to KC.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I definitely think it was premeditated and have believed that from the start. If it had not been then she would have been wracked with guilt with knowing she didn't intend for it to happen. The same if it had been an accident. The only way that she could have done this to Caylee and then immediately go on like nothing had happened shows she did plan it and when she carried it out, she was through with Caylee, once and for all.

I think she very well knew the pain and suffering this would cause George and Cindy. I think she reveled in that thought...that she now controlled their destiny forevermore.

In some ways she reminds me of Susan Smith. Caylee was the one that got all of the attention and Caylee got in the way of Casey's wild and slutty desires. Caylee was nothing but a burden to Casey and one she did not want to carry so she murdered her and toss her out like trash and went on with her life. She would have never given her to her mom......she would rather murder Caylee first, than do that.

imoo

 

[crazylovemonkee]

That just made me think of another potential motive again related to her craving of attention. When a mother has a new born baby she receives lots of attention. I thought about this a little too the other night watching the dateline show. When JG said he tried to talk her into giving up the baby, but she wouldn't go for that. Why? I think because she knew having a baby around would bring her attention.

However as a baby grows to become a toddler and eventually to a young child, the attention the mother receives wanes. While always an extension of the child's mother, as a child matures the child's becomes her own person. Again speaking of the motive of attention and apologies because this is dark, perhaps in her mind, her child was outgrowing her usefulness.

If we look into KC's childhood she has most likely always craved all the attention. She hid her pregnancy for 7 months... WHY???... SHe wanted to give Caylee up for adoption.. we have that form one of her friends in the documents.. WHY didn't she?? Because of CA, her mother. CA wanted Caylee but she didn't want to be the sole provider which as much as I hate to say it she sould have been. KC never really wanted Caylee.... that is why she hid the pregnancy. I have wondered why she just didn't have an abortion.. then noone would have known.. seeing how she is so good at lying.

I can also your points of KC getting attention while Caylee was smaller and as she grew that attentioned lessened and her parents support lessened as well. I don't think KC ever wanted to be a mother and had the baby because she thought her mother would be proud of her and raise the child for her.. but that support sisn't come. They wanted KC to be the one person she never really wanted to be and that was a mother. soooo... she acted in the way of ultimate revenge...

Do I think there was some form of premeditation?? Yes... Look at the searches onthe computer... documents say they were done in March.. we don't exactlly know who made those searches but the fact it has been released in discovery makes me think it was KC....

Even though she inertained the thoughts.. do I think she ever thought she could go through with it??.... Not until CA blew up in her face.. tried to choke her and sent her over the edge....

I feel the whole A family with the disfunction that is obviously there is responsible for this tragedy in one way or another.

 

[sweetwater]

What would the motive behind premeditation be? The duct tape is very convincing that it was premeditated. I still don't understand the motive. C'mon. Casey is not insane. We've all gotten mad at kids for being annoying, but we didn't kill them. It's not like she killed her out of revenge, for money, out of passion, idk. Can anyone point to a motive behind a premeditated murder that makes sense? (other than insanity)

Casey isn't insane but she sure is sociopathic. Why did Jeffery Dalmer buy a freezer and start eating boys?
Who really knows why she, apparently, was seeking and searching for murder methods, poisons, and weapons back in March. Checking out how missing children orgs work, ....

Anybody have any clues? Who was she dating then? Wasn't she supposedly pregnant in the spring?
She does seem to have been seriously into TL, and he told her he would not want to have girl children. Between that deal-breaker and the fight with Cindy, she must have just decided WTH, I can get away with this and now's as good a time as any.

 

[scratchthatitch]

I have doubts we'll ever know the full truth too. Unfortunately.
And I agree that Casey really did screw up if this was indeed her plan. I think she might have planned to sound the alarm on the fake kidnapping much earlier, but "flurries of calls" weren't answered, she got lazy and then she started thinking there really wasn't any harm in delaying the inevitable-- she could go out, free and unencumbered by her daughter; she could contemplate various ways the story would go; she could even contemplate an escape route for disappearing and starting a new life.
Her extreme lack of foresight and need for constant and swift gratification (IMO psychopathic traits) severely handicaps her ability to plan and execute an elaborate plan. Her complete lack of insight (IMO another psychopathic trait) makes her unable to see how absurd her plan is/was and how incomprehensible it is to others.
The only thing that has surprised me about Casey is that I really thought she'd be a better actress.

I agree in so many ways with this statement. KC's laziness and need for immediate gratification clouded her ability to carry out any elaborate plan. I have heard time and again how many psychopaths focus on the murder and give little to no thought to the aftermath. The reward is in the first, the latter is the work. I believe KC was capable of being cold hearted enough to:
*simply wait until George left to work
*drive back into the garage
*place the container of quickly-mixed chloroform in the trunk
*wrap Caylee's mouth-and very likely hands-in duct tape so she wouldn't have to listen to her scream (obviously horrible for us to imagine)
*place her in the trunk
*go back inside and "kill time" on the computer
*at 3:00 she goes back out to the garage and finds the job done
I see KC using the least amount of work to receive the most amount of reward. I think the whole setting was set up so that KC had as little to do with as possible. afterward, it was just about avoidance and getting reinforcement to her thought that she was getting away with it the more time went by and no one challenged her on Caylee's whereabouts.

 

[frenchvixen]

KC is the evil offspring of Susan Smith and Scott Peterson. SS was not a psychopath. She met a man who didn't want to be bothered with kids and she killed her kids. KC like SP had such a sense of pride that she would rather kill her child than to admit to her failure as a parent and give Caylee to her mother to raise. KC already had her mental issues before Caylee even came along and then to add the responsibilities of motherhood just threw her in the deep end. This was a murder waiting to happen. Who knew how long she's been plotting. She should have done better research but it's this laziness of hers afterall that became her downfall.

 

[the by and by]

My feelings are that this isn't her first attempt to kill Caylee, she had tried another time or times, and I feel this time did not completely cause death at first that if she had sought medical help she MAY have lived, but of course she could not or did not want that. So she waited for her to die and possibly had to finish her off another way. I felt she was surprised and angry that she did not die immediately as she had thought out many times before. KC has been given many chances to come clean or possibly even avert what happened to Caylee but she kept on until she was dead and she thinks she had so well planned it and was smart about her 'stories' she could place the blame on someone else and get by with it.

 

[LLH]

Very thought provoking posts! Good insight and, I think, accurate.

Did KC really want to give up Caylee? According to JG she didn't. I remember it being an issue between them at first. This, perhaps, is the beginning of the ambivalent feelings toward Caylee. JG and his parents accepted Caylee, babysat her.. and most likely had deep feelings for the baby. JG proposed, Caylee and all. Did KC feel that she had been
ousted, emotionally, by the attention they gave Caylee?

KC has proven that she loves being adored. She wants the attention to be focused on her and her only. This goes way back to the comment C made, that KC would "mother" and take care of people, just as she was doing with these new friends. She was looking for compliments and a feeling of adoration by her peers. It appears that when the newness and adoration in her relationships fade away, that she finds someone new to replace that feeling, just as she did with all the men in her life. I believe she felt diminished because she wanted to be G and C's little girl.. and Caylee replaced her, which may have been a valid feeling.C had been the do-no-wrong princess until Caylee arrived. Suddenly, she was expected to share the spotlight.

One point that I wanted to make here. KC was supposedly taking Caylee away for a trip, so they could BOND? Doesn't a mother bond with her child when it is newborn? If that feeling wasn't felt by the age of 2.10 years, something was very very wrong. This shows a disturbing lack of maternal feeling. She still shows no maternal feeling.

I have felt that this was murder from the beginning. Why? Well, mothers just do not fail to report their children missing for 31 days. She didnt want to report it at all. Her jailhouse conversations are of her crying, when she or anyone talks about KC and how KC feels. Conversation about Caylee is met with wide eyes and excuses. She says " well I am still here...." " I dont sit here crying" " I am eating and sleeping" .

If this had been an accident, there would be remorse. Sadness. She wouldnt have needed to lie. The lies speak of her intent and guilt. She was and IS spiteful, as she claims. She revels in the control she has over this death. She revels in seeing her parents suffer over Caylee. Even though she is in jail, her parents and friends more about Caylee than her. She sees this and has mentioned it many times. Like she told her best friend K on the phone..when K said she would just DIE if anything bad happend to Caylee...KC responds with , calling you guys was a huge waste.

Premeditated? probably. She was about to lose her gravy train. Caylee was of no more use to her, and stood in her way. Many people cannot grasp such a heartless deed, but the cold fact is, people do murder their children. We cannot make it seem normal, because it isnt.

 

[headndownstream]

Knowing what we now know with the duct tape, chloroform, internet searches, I'm having a very hard time with accidental death. I'll be very curious to find out if her hands were taped too.

If there had not been a fight at the A's, then her disappearance within 24 hours, I'd agree accidental.

But this feels like a revenge murder in the worst, most heartless way. I believe she died the night of the fight, and that George is wrong about seeing her the next day.

KC's tone with her mother in every recorded video and audio is infused with anger, spite, bitterness, sarcasm, contempt, and sneers, (when she wasn't crying her little tears about her own mess.) Just watch the difference between the way she talks to GA, then CA.

 

[Beyond Belief]

I voted accidental, but and lots of but's here. I don't think there was a death wish going on inside Casey's head. There are just too many ways to kill a child without it developing into this weak unbelievable mess Casey has turned this into.
I am leaning toward she was killed in a fit of anger. Two year olds are a handful, and parents do loose it and get pushed over the edge. Child abuse is happening as we speak and Caylee won't be the last victim of it.

 

[madeleine]

As I understand it, premeditation in law can even be a matter of mere moments - a decision to commit murder is made and then acted out.

There are two big reasons for premeditation that make sense to me: 1) She wanted to go live with TonE and he didn't want a child living there - in order to go, she needed to not have a child, 2) KC and CA had a very dysfunctional and emotional relationship: they were vying over Klee as to who was a better mother to the little girl, who Klee loved more, etc.; if KC gave custody to CA then CA would "win" - and KC really *is* a spiteful b**ch who couldn't stand to see that happen.

Also KC is narcissistic, and narcissistic mothers tend to view their children as an extension of themselves. (IIRC KC even said "we're like the same little person" at some point in the jail interviews) As a result, they feel they have a right to do whatever they want to them.

*bolded by me*

Good point,I think that's exactly what happened.