A Pre Meditated Murder? or Accidental?

[Patty G]

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[TakeNote]

An extremely interesting article written about Casey by 2 Homicide detectives (for those of you who haven't seen it yet):

http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2008/08/did-beautiful-young-florida-mom-kill_03.html

Thanks for the great read!!

 

[Reality Orlando]

I'm beginning to lean that way but I still can't place my mind directly on premeditation 100%. I still somewhat tend to believe she killed her intentionally but because she snapped. An act of rage.

She created stories and excuses around Caylee's disappearance and the smell of the car. This doesn't sound to me like an accident.

If it was premeditated, I think it was hours before the crime or maybe a day at the most. This could have been a snapped decision because of the fight between Casey and Cindy, although I'd bet Casey had regrets of Caylee since she was hindering her partying and stealing Cindy's attention/affection.

That argument on the 15th seems to hold significant importance to me.

I agree about that argument. My guess is that was the catalyst to all that followed. I always believed it was an accident, but reading through the recent releases, it seems more spur of the moment anger and Casey snapped and did something that caused Caylee to die.

 

[parabeagle]

This is just conjecture on my part, but I agree with all of you in that basically, she argued w/ her parents, stormed out probably said on the way out that they'd never see Caylee again. Plus, think about it, Caylee love the A's...they had raised her for her whole life and when they left, the poor baby was probably screaming for Grama & Grampa! (or whatever she called them) and that was like a knife in KC's gut! I can totally see that happening. I have what I consider a wonderful relationship w/ my kids and my parents....my girls love my parents like they are a second set of parents, not just g-parents. And there have been times when I got after them and "hurt their feelings" (in their minds) and they cried for Gramommy and Grandad...and it hurt. But then again, I took it in stride and let it go. But can you imagine if KC was already pissed at them, stormed out, said she'll never see the baby again and then little caylee's in the back seat crying and reaching for Cindy?.....oh, now I feel sick to my stomach.....

 

[jon_burrows]

An extremely interesting article written about Casey by 2 Homicide detectives (for those of you who haven't seen it yet):

http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2008/08/did-beautiful-young-florida-mom-kill_03.html

Thanks for posting the article. It's interesting to read the opinion of two homicide detectives. I agree with them.

As for the poll, I originally thought it was an accident, Casey panicked, then hid the body. After reading the documents and hearing about her lifestyle for the 31 days after Caylee 'disappeared', I think it was definitely pre meditated.

 

[Reality Orlando]

I am on the fence. I don't think TonE had anything to do with it in any sense (coverup included). I think she was enamored with him and that may be why she stole money to buy outfits for her club nights, food to bring to his house, be able to have money for drinks, maybe pot, etc. By TonE's own admission he started to feel suffocated and "joked" with her that he may have to stay in NY & get a job there, etc., which made her very upset according to him. This was his way of getting her to back off a little. So, while he was away, she was sleeping with Ricardo and in her mind that was how she was "getting back" at TonE for making those comments. Jesse had also mentioned she had complained to him about her relationship with TonE (even though she had only known him a month!), so evidently her knight wasn't in such shiny armor after all, so she was already feeling agitated that all her stealing and everything was going to come out in the open and her lies to Amy about living together, etc. would come crashing down, then the fight with her parents. That was the last straw and she left with Caylee that night in a vengeful rage and God help Caylee if she even whimpered. We may never know the rest of the story, but that's how I think her thinking may have been going. I don't think she left the house with the intention of killing Caylee, but I do think she did maybe accidentally on purpose.

My feelings about Tony is that Casey needed some place to live. She couldn't go home without Caylee and so she was coming on strong as she needed someplace to go until she found something else. The computer pm's between them didn't give me any warm and fuzzies from Casey. Everything she said seemed to be what Tony wanted to hear, just very matter of fact....the sex is good between us so this is working. I think George and Cindy were coming to terms with her being 22 and not taking control of her life and they were demanding she start taking financial responsibility for herself at least and Tony was the easy way out. Poor guy...just another victim in this whole sad situation.

 

[seekingjustice**]

At the beginning I believed this was an accident that she covered up. I have since changed my mind after reading all the documents released plus seeing her demeanor.

I think for the first couple of years everything was going alright at home with GA & CA enabling her lies. She was free enough to sneak out with her friends "while supposedly working", steal from CA, LA and whoever else without repercussions. Caylee was probably a bit of a thorn in her side, but CA took on the role of mothering most of the time, so there wasn't too much pressure on her.

Somewhere over the last couple of months, IMO, CA & GA started to put pressure on her. Not believing her stories of work (maybe why she was creating her fake emails to prove she did work)...I think the pressure was building, especially once CA started seeing a counsellor in regards to Casey. CA possibly changed the rules at home, under the counsellors advice, to try and make Casey more responsible for taking care of Caylee. CA & GA had stopped enabling her. CA was trying tough love, cutting her no slack.

I believe it was while under this pressure, Casey started to unravel, possibly plan their demise and Caylee's too. Now that they were no longer useful to her. She saw Caylee as the cause of most of her problems. Before she had Caylee, she was CA's princess. Possibly around this time the searches for the Chloroform began. She may have originally only planned on getting rid of Caylee. Maybe that is why she was searching the Missing Childrens sites, looking around for ideas.

I think the BIG blowup on the 15th was the final straw that snapped her plan into action. She couldn't live another day in that house, she also had no means of looking after Caylee, no-where to stay with Caylee (as TonE had made it obvious that Caylee was not welcome)..so she just got rid of her and at the same time also got felt she had got even with her mother by taking Caylee away..in her mind she believes it is all CA's fault for changing things and making her life hard! IMOO..

I also think CA feels guilty that she did push Casey over the edge. So she blames herself for what happened to Caylee.. exactly what Casey wanted!

 

[baah!]

This is from my friend colomom, another WS poster, from the Madeleine McCann thread. Very informative.
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

OH PLEASE !!!! This sounds like pretty much all boss's profiles not the McCanns.:slap:

 

[headndownstream]

The chloroform has made me very suspicious. I'll have to wait until trial to hear what they have on that. However, at this point I think pre-meditated.

 

[bookworm474]

If it was a drowning, Casey could have lied and said that she(Casey) passes out or something. Instead, she is milking this for attention and causing her parents grief. If it was an accident at Tony's like what LP mentioned in the beginning that might have made it harder for her to deal with for fear of losing Tony. I have wondered if she had Caylee the evening of the 16th and put her in the trunk to sleep and forgot her. the way this played out, if her mother had left it alone, Casey thought she was in the clear. Pretty stupid!

 

[passionflower]

My vote is premeditated........I wasn't sure til I read everything........Caylee was in the way of fun........Caylee was KC's mistake...........to get back to parents etc................IMO

 

[passionflower]

Definately planned!!!

 

[miabellamoure]

My gut says premeditated even if in a snap decision out of spite towards her mother but, it could also have been accidental, too...thus my fence sitting.

A pathological lier such as KC, will have a vast amount of webs of scenarios to choose from then & even now. She just keeps weaving 'em...and we may never really know but, I think LE will get as close to the actual scenario as anyone can.

 

[SoCalSleuth]

Just a thought: What if KC decided to pay back mommy dearest by staging a pool accident? i.e hey mom, in one of your drunken stupors you left the pool ladder up and I just found Caylee dead? But when neither parent answered her "panicked calls" she tired of hanging around and put Caylee in the trunk until she decided what to do next?

 

[jmommy]

Computer searches and their dates have not been made public but when they are I believe NG will be proven wrong. I believe we will see chloroform searches *POST DATE* Caylee's disappearance--in fact FIT quite neatly within an accidental pool drowning scenario--since we now have every reason to suspect chloroform may have actually been used to destroy the ODOR or DNA--AFTER Caylee's decaying body had been inside trunk. Even THEN, the nagging question still remains by WHOM (I've got another theory re that). NG is far too eager to pronounce this tragedy a coldblooded, premeditated murder when even Casey herself when pressed by Lee ADMITS and alludes to the fact her mother's right afterall--that she really IS an "UNFIT" mother. (After tonight I really miss Greta's objectivity, all this gnashing of teeth is getting tiresome.) Don't get me wrong, there is NOTHING Casey did in the aftermath of this heartbreaking tragedy that is appropriate, reasonable or how any HUMANE, RESPONSIBLE, CARING ADULT would act! But the "rain falls on the just and the UNJUST" (including narcissists, fools, liars and thieves) and NEGLIGENCE, POOR PARENTING, FOOLISHNESS AND SELFISH PRIORITIES do in some instances CAUSE DEATH. One more silent toddler drowning--concealed after no one was answering her panicked calls because she couldn't face her mother or bear responsibiity for what she allowed to happen--for being the incompetent mother her mom always told her she was. 71 years worth of fraud, stolen and forged check charges YES Felony child endangerment YES!!! Lying to investigators YES!! Obstruction of justice!!! YES Criminal negligence YES!!! Abuse of a corpse YES!!!! Premeditated murder? I don't think so. We shall see as soon as we know ALL the cards LE is working with. IMHO

I believe you are wrong. I remember several news programs , including NG, saying all the searches were before Caylee was last seen. I believe the chloroform searches were in May!!! and some of the missing children searches were in March!!!

 

[Texana]

Traces of chloroform in Casey's vehicle and searches on the Web--very damning for a premeditated murder charge.

I hate to believe this possible, but if this evidence is true (along with the missing children websites before Caylee was reportedly "missing") then it's not good.

 

[Egoslayer]

What would the motive behind premeditation be? The duct tape is very convincing that it was premeditated. I still don't understand the motive. C'mon. Casey is not insane. We've all gotten mad at kids for being annoying, but we didn't kill them. It's not like she killed her out of revenge, for money, out of passion, idk. Can anyone point to a motive behind a premeditated murder that makes sense? (other than insanity)

 

[Snowlover77]

With KC, it started out with THINKING and FANTASIZING what her life would be like w/o Caylee and as time went on, she became obcessed with the idea of not having her daughter in her life and began to research ways to eliminate her child. I also strongly believe that KC's hatred for her mom is embedded in the motive too. Remember her words to Lee..."Maybe I'm just a spiteful .!" She had several reasons for killing Caylee...one, her lifestyle wasn't all she wanted it to be and couldn't be with Caylee..her mom was seeing a counselor and that counselor was advising her to throw KC out of the house and get custody of Caylee...that I am sure was a big part in this...KC did not wnat her mom to have what her mom loved most in this world and that was Caylee....and then we have the big fight where Cindy is said to have started choking KC after finding out she stole money from her grandparents...put all of this together and you have what was found in a trashbag 3/10ths of a mile from where this family lived.
I hope to God that KC gets what she deserves. She is a female Scott Peterson. And is definitely not , ythe mother of the year.
God will not have mercy on her soul.

 

[stagehand]

Motive, that is the key I think proving premeditation. So many things in this case and been researched and debated to the nth degree, in some cases going off on wild tangents in the search for clues. Yet all of the ideas about motive seem rather weak to me, "she wanted to be free and party" or "she trying to get back at her mother". There is more evidence of the former, yet the latter seems more realistic.

As I've read things to understand her psychological profile, it becomes more and more clear to me that she craves being the center of attention. To the point that she gets what she wants if people hate her or love her. It doesn't matter because both are attention. So if it was premeditated, I believe it was all about her being at the center of attention.

Which if true, means that while some people may have thought the events of the past couple of days might not have been something she never wanted to happen. On the contrary, I think she is sitting there right now basking in all the attention.

Maybe she left the body where she did thinking it would be easy to find? Maybe she is sticking to such outrages lies because she knows it drives people crazy and makes them angry. Her actions are effecting the thoughts, feelings, and actions of so many others. And as long as that continues, she is in control which is exactly what she wants.

 

[nancy botwin]

Motive, that is the key I think proving premeditation. So many things in this case and been researched and debated to the nth degree, in some cases going off on wild tangents in the search for clues. Yet all of the ideas about motive seem rather weak to me, "she wanted to be free and party" or "she trying to get back at her mother". There is more evidence of the former, yet the latter seems more realistic.

As I've read things to understand her psychological profile, it becomes more and more clear to me that she craves being the center of attention. To the point that she gets what she wants if people hate her or love her. It doesn't matter because both are attention. So if it was premeditated, I believe it was all about her being at the center of attention.

Which if true, means that while some people may have thought the events of the past couple of days might not have been something she never wanted to happen. On the contrary, I think she is sitting there right now basking in all the attention.

Maybe she left the body where she did thinking it would be easy to find? Maybe she is sticking to such outrages lies because she knows it drives people crazy and makes them angry. Her actions are effecting the thoughts, feelings, and actions of so many others. And as long as that continues, she is in control which is exactly what she wants.

I agree in a lot of ways. I think it's very possible that she anticipated and wanted Caylee's body to be found. I think, however, that she imagined it would be found sooner and under entirely different circumstances. I think she thought she would be the one making "cameos" on the Today show and negotiating book deals. I think the computer searches for missing children's websites help support the idea that Casey was intrigued with the type and amount of attention given to the families of missing children. Casey also rented the movie Untraceable on the night authorities have stated was likely the night Caylee was murdered. Untraceable is a thriller depicting a cat & mouse chase between authorities and a sadistic attention-seeking killer. She was supposed to be the beautiful young mother bravely facing any parent's worst nightmare-- instead, she was "arrested on a whim," which seriously constrained her ability to play the role she had created for herself.

I don't know that she's completely pleased with the attention she's receiving now-- she has completely lost control of the situation and her lies didn't play out the way she'd imagined they would. She also has limited and controlled contact with the outside world, which makes it virtually impossible for her to keep propagating lies. I think she's probably spending this time trying to figure out the best way to spin everything to salvage as much of her story as possible. I imagine she's also quite frantic about her inability to influence and control her parents' recent exposure to the truth. I believe Baez was being truthful when he said that Casey is currently "struggling," but I'm sure she'll rebound rather quickly-- if only within her own mind.:furious: