A Pre Meditated Murder? or Accidental?

[AfterSunset]

Very thought provoking posts! Good insight and, I think, accurate.

Did KC really want to give up Caylee? According to JG she didn't. I remember it being an issue between them at first. This, perhaps, is the beginning of the ambivalent feelings toward Caylee. JG and his parents accepted Caylee, babysat her.. and most likely had deep feelings for the baby. JG proposed, Caylee and all. Did KC feel that she had been
ousted, emotionally, by the attention they gave Caylee?

KC has proven that she loves being adored. She wants the attention to be focused on her and her only. This goes way back to the comment C made, that KC would "mother" and take care of people, just as she was doing with these new friends. She was looking for compliments and a feeling of adoration by her peers. It appears that when the newness and adoration in her relationships fade away, that she finds someone new to replace that feeling, just as she did with all the men in her life. I believe she felt diminished because she wanted to be G and C's little girl.. and Caylee replaced her, which may have been a valid feeling.C had been the do-no-wrong princess until Caylee arrived. Suddenly, she was expected to share the spotlight.

One point that I wanted to make here. KC was supposedly taking Caylee away for a trip, so they could BOND? Doesn't a mother bond with her child when it is newborn? If that feeling wasn't felt by the age of 2.10 years, something was very very wrong. This shows a disturbing lack of maternal feeling. She still shows no maternal feeling.

I have felt that this was murder from the beginning. Why? Well, mothers just do not fail to report their children missing for 31 days. She didnt want to report it at all. Her jailhouse conversations are of her crying, when she or anyone talks about KC and how KC feels. Conversation about Caylee is met with wide eyes and excuses. She says " well I am still here...." " I dont sit here crying" " I am eating and sleeping" .

If this had been an accident, there would be remorse. Sadness. She wouldnt have needed to lie. The lies speak of her intent and guilt. She was and IS spiteful, as she claims. She revels in the control she has over this death. She revels in seeing her parents suffer over Caylee. Even though she is in jail, her parents and friends more about Caylee than her. She sees this and has mentioned it many times. Like she told her best friend K on the phone..when K said she would just DIE if anything bad happend to Caylee...KC responds with , calling you guys was a huge waste.

Premeditated? probably. She was about to lose her gravy train. Caylee was of no more use to her, and stood in her way. Many people cannot grasp such a heartless deed, but the cold fact is, people do murder their children. We cannot make it seem normal, because it isnt.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
ITA excellent post!

 

[Gma Kat]

Very thought provoking posts! Good insight and, I think, accurate.

Did KC really want to give up Caylee? According to JG she didn't. I remember it being an issue between them at first. This, perhaps, is the beginning of the ambivalent feelings toward Caylee. JG and his parents accepted Caylee, babysat her.. and most likely had deep feelings for the baby. JG proposed, Caylee and all. Did KC feel that she had been
ousted, emotionally, by the attention they gave Caylee?

KC has proven that she loves being adored. She wants the attention to be focused on her and her only. This goes way back to the comment C made, that KC would "mother" and take care of people, just as she was doing with these new friends. She was looking for compliments and a feeling of adoration by her peers. It appears that when the newness and adoration in her relationships fade away, that she finds someone new to replace that feeling, just as she did with all the men in her life. I believe she felt diminished because she wanted to be G and C's little girl.. and Caylee replaced her, which may have been a valid feeling.C had been the do-no-wrong princess until Caylee arrived. Suddenly, she was expected to share the spotlight.

One point that I wanted to make here. KC was supposedly taking Caylee away for a trip, so they could BOND? Doesn't a mother bond with her child when it is newborn? If that feeling wasn't felt by the age of 2.10 years, something was very very wrong. This shows a disturbing lack of maternal feeling. She still shows no maternal feeling.

I have felt that this was murder from the beginning. Why? Well, mothers just do not fail to report their children missing for 31 days. She didnt want to report it at all. Her jailhouse conversations are of her crying, when she or anyone talks about KC and how KC feels. Conversation about Caylee is met with wide eyes and excuses. She says " well I am still here...." " I dont sit here crying" " I am eating and sleeping" .

If this had been an accident, there would be remorse. Sadness. She wouldnt have needed to lie. The lies speak of her intent and guilt. She was and IS spiteful, as she claims. She revels in the control she has over this death. She revels in seeing her parents suffer over Caylee. Even though she is in jail, her parents and friends more about Caylee than her. She sees this and has mentioned it many times. Like she told her best friend K on the phone..when K said she would just DIE if anything bad happend to Caylee...KC responds with , calling you guys was a huge waste.

Premeditated? probably. She was about to lose her gravy train. Caylee was of no more use to her, and stood in her way. Many people cannot grasp such a heartless deed, but the cold fact is, people do murder their children. We cannot make it seem normal, because it isnt.

BRAVO! Couldn't agree more...:clap:

 

[Gma Kat]

What would the motive behind premeditation be? The duct tape is very convincing that it was premeditated. I still don't understand the motive. C'mon. Casey is not insane. We've all gotten mad at kids for being annoying, but we didn't kill them. It's not like she killed her out of revenge, for money, out of passion, idk. Can anyone point to a motive behind a premeditated murder that makes sense? (other than insanity)

The graveyards are full of little children murdered, by premeditation, at the hands of their parents. Each murder probably had a different motive. Susan Smith, Andrea Yates, I really could keep going for a long time...sadly. Susan Smith was not insane, Andrea Yates was. No premediated murder makes sense to those of us who can't conceive of murdering another human, let alone our own child. I'm glad to hear your nice enough to not be able to conceive it.

 

[Gma Kat]

Motive, that is the key I think proving premeditation. So many things in this case and been researched and debated to the nth degree, in some cases going off on wild tangents in the search for clues. Yet all of the ideas about motive seem rather weak to me, "she wanted to be free and party" or "she trying to get back at her mother". There is more evidence of the former, yet the latter seems more realistic.

As I've read things to understand her psychological profile, it becomes more and more clear to me that she craves being the center of attention. To the point that she gets what she wants if people hate her or love her. It doesn't matter because both are attention. So if it was premeditated, I believe it was all about her being at the center of attention.

Which if true, means that while some people may have thought the events of the past couple of days might not have been something she never wanted to happen. On the contrary, I think she is sitting there right now basking in all the attention.

Maybe she left the body where she did thinking it would be easy to find? Maybe she is sticking to such outrages lies because she knows it drives people crazy and makes them angry. Her actions are effecting the thoughts, feelings, and actions of so many others. And as long as that continues, she is in control which is exactly what she wants.

Its working too so far...we keep applying logic to an illogical person...take away the attention from the search and the upcoming trial, where hopefully KC will be found guilty, and KC's worst nightmare will come true...no one will be paying any attention to her anymore...

 

[PrintGal]

I have always believed it to be premeditated. Many factors contributed- the new relationship with TL, the fight with CA, Caylee "making" her miss out on the trip to Puerto Rico... and bear in mind that as Caylee grew older, she was becoming more able to articulate to her grandparents what they did when KC was supposedly at work. In my opinion KC is a narcissist (quite possibly NPD), and Caylee was increasingly becoming a liability to her. Caylee had been a useful tool- providing narcissistic supply in the form of unconditional approval, being an extension of KC, a means to act the role of "good mother", and also a means of getting money from her parents. But in KC's mind, the cons were beginning to outweight the pros.

My ex has NPD and I have watched this case with interest since it was first reported. So much of what she does is classic NPD- she has contempt for everyone else, lies when the truth would serve as well, no ability to really connect with people- they are just a means to an ends, believes people will believe what she says simply because she says it. She honestly believed up to the last minute that LE would believe she worked at Universal if she brazened it out long enough. Her serial boyfriends are also serving as narcisstic supply. And she obviously had her dad well-trained. It creeped me out when he called her "gorgous" on the jailhouse videos. Reminded me of the Twilight Zone episode with Billy Mumi. Her folks went in there desperate to get information and knew they had to play her game or be sent into the cornfield. That was why all the kow-towing, "honey" and "gorgeous" and stuff was going on at first, I think.

 

[doogiesgirl]

In the beginning I leaned toward accidental death through negligence. Now however, I think this was premeditated. When I think about KC searching websites such as chloroform, neck-breaking, household weapons and missing children this leads me to believe that March 08 was when she began to research her plan. I think she had it all planned out but the stealing from great-grandma threw a wrench in her plans and she had to go with the "seat of your pants version". I think it possible that she had a plan in her head but then the fight on the 15th happened and she left with Caylee. I think she snapped and killed Caylee in anger and then tried to go with the rest of her plan after that. Because she snapped, she was sloppy.

There are moments that I have caught just the ever so slight glimpse of the "real" KC. One is on one of those jail video visits with her parents, they get up to leave at the five minute mark and she is left sitting there in front of the camera. She wipes her face (cleaning the fake tears away in my opinion), fixes her hair and then I swear to me it looks like she says to herself ok, scene over.... fooled them..... I can drop this expression now.
Another time when I see the real KC is on the "silent" videos of Caylee that are on you tube. Someone is taping Caylee, I'd bet my last dollar it was KC b/c it feels like she is stalking her, watching her prey, Caylee tries time and again to get the person behind the camera to talk to her but they won't. It is so disturbing to me. It feels like some sick game that is being played, like she is hunting, tracking Caylee and trying to make her feel uneasy.
I don't buy into any of what KC is trying to sell. I hope she gets the DP. JMO

 

[Cara's Mom]

I would like to think that if it were an accident, Casey would'[ve called 911-what better way to be the center of attention as the poor grieving mother of a child who drowned/fell/etc? I can't buy the idea of the A's using chloroform as a cleaner. Just cause CA is a nurse doesn't mean she had access to it. I am a nurse in a hospital and we don't have chloroform laying around, you can't "sneak" into the pharmacy to steal it-its locked and someone's always there. Besides, didn't CA work for a Home Health Agency? I totally believe this was premeditated-as hard as it is to say that, as a mom myself.

 

[minazoe]

no...no no....not an accident...are you kidding me? no way. Casey is all about self preservation...she would have immediatley distanced herself...she would have immediatley screamed ACCIDENT the minute they nabbed her. No...she planned and planned...the fight was the catalyst.

they keep trying to soften this with the sleeping in the trunk theroy. The child was dead already. She never slept in the trunk and I don't beleive George saw them the morn of the 16th. He is either trying to skew the timeline or his memory is confused.

we are going to see alot of evidence coming out on that little body...I think she killed her little girl after the fight that very night. i think she experimented with the chloroform on Amy and was planning to get rid of her parents too...There would have been a trail of bodies following this young black widow.

remember...women are poisioners. I would like to see the life insurance and wills that the A's had in place at the time of all this.

 

[kageykaren]

Looking in from the outside at this family, it seems apparent new ma ma KC seemed to be the babysitter in the family & CA was more the maternal ma ma role. Remember being a mother can be an acquired skill, not always a natural response from new moms. CA was probably the one to project throughout KC life, " If I want it done, Ill have to do it myself, " once again not helping daughter assimilate into motherhood. Not to far a stretch to believe KC considers herself the glorified babsitter nanny. This nanny , mommy behavior worked really good within the family and towards her friends. How she felt and described herself with her placement in friends was self satisfying promoting delusional grandious thoughts about herself. Once she figured out it was a boring lifestyle and with her new friends having a child wasn't so flatterlng or " cool " and Caylee won her no kudos. GEEZE all the hollywood starlets are walking on the wild side so am I. Take her age, critical parenting, argument with mom, her diseased brain exploded with rage onto her child.

 

[Pedrosmom]

To spite her mother, period.

 

[panthera]

I've always believed the murder was premeditated and became more and more convinced as evidence came out, such as ~ the computer searches, the text messages and other communications where she called Caylee a "snotty brat" or words to that effect, the photos of her partying immediately after Caylee supposedly was abducted and seeming total lack of any form of "grief", wanting to be with the new boyfriend who didn't want Caylee to stay overnight at the apt., or want kids right away, and the list goes on. Basically I believe she resented Caylee who she perceived as in her way, preventing her from the lifestyle she wanted, and most likely resented the attention her parents gave Caylee instead of herself. I also think she started planning this murder back when she knew her friends were all going to Puerto Rico for a vacation and she couldn't because of Caylee. No way do I believe it was in any way accidental, even if she had been using chloroform to sedate Caylee as so many seem to think. Chloroform itself is illegal and nobody has any business sedating a small child with it without realizing there could be dire consequences. MOO

 

[wallflower67]

I wonder if KC planned to do away with the whole family, CA and GA, and maybe LA too.

Or maybe it was premeditated to some degree. Maybe she looked up how to do it, "just in case" she decided to do it.

And then all of a sudden she was in a rage, after her fight with CA, and followed through on impulse. thus the sloppy trail and poor planning for explanation of why Caylee was missing.

Edited to add: maybe she ONLY planned on getting rid of the Ants and planned on staying in the house with Caylee. You really don't need to look up neck breaking for a 2yo, but maybe she did because she's stupid. That sounds more like someting you'd do to an adult.

 

[Kimmer]

Here is my theory for what it is worth...First of premeditated for sure and keep in mind that premidtation can be gleened in a breif moment..But I feel that the original search on the chloraform was so she could use it on her parents..she was so consumed on getting the house and the other things that her parents had, but did not want to work for them..I think she was planning on useing the chloraform on G&C and then using a household item to kill them and make it look like a breakin..But then she was caught taking money for Cindy's father and the fight broke out on Fathers Day, and I feel that Cindy kicked KC out and with that she took Caylee with her...Then she needed to quiet Caylee down (remember she was in her terrible two's)
and needed to have her sleep while she was out partying, so that is when she started Chloraforming her and she used to much and it killed Caylee, at this point she decided that she would dump the body, abandon the car, and get the guy in California she was talking to, to fly her out to California and so when her car was finally found they would both be gone and it would look like they had been kidnapped and when Caylee's body was found close to home it wouldnt matter cause they would never find her...I think she would have went to California and assumed a new identity and then should could have just went on with her Beautiful Life...She just didnt get all of her plans done as quickly as she needed to as to not be caught...Now she can have her Beautiful Life being someone else's in prison...If she thought Cindy was bad to live with she hasn't seen nothing yet...

 

[panthera]

I wonder if KC planned to do away with the whole family, CA and GA, and maybe LA too.

Or maybe it was premeditated to some degree. Maybe she looked up how to do it, "just in case" she decided to do it.

And then all of a sudden she was in a rage, after her fight with CA, and followed through on impulse. thus the sloppy trail and poor planning for explanation of why Caylee was missing.

Edited to add: maybe she ONLY planned on getting rid of the Ants and planned on staying in the house with Caylee. You really don't need to look up neck breaking for a 2yo, but maybe she did because she's stupid. That sounds more like someting you'd do to an adult.

I seem to recall a search for "self-defense" too which certainly wouldn't need to be used on a 3 y/o child. You might be onto something here since she did appear to be making plans to move Amy into the house. Or maybe it was just her wild imagination and more lies. MOO

 

[CaptLogic]

I seem to recall a search for "self-defense" too which certainly wouldn't need to be used on a 3 y/o child. You might be onto something here since she did appear to be making plans to move Amy into the house. Or maybe it was just her wild imagination and more lies. MOO

I always found this odd too. All of her lies and cons needed planning. So, more than likely this was all premeditated. It's possible there were other plans in the works. Maybe she thought she could kill just her Mother. Then she would be the real Mother and get to stay in the house.

 

[panthera]

I always found this odd too. All of her lies and cons needed planning. So, more than likely this was all premeditated. It's possible there were other plans in the works. Maybe she thought she could kill just her Mother. Then she would be the real Mother and get to stay in the house.

'Self-defense' and 'household weapons' sure don't seem something that would go with killing a 3 y/o child so it definitely does look like an adult was supposed to be a victim also, and somebody intended to make it look like self-defense. My guess is if it was Casey doing the searches it would be her mother who she wanted out of the way. MOO

 

[CaptLogic]

I was just randomly listening to media links and catching up. There's this tidbit about the clothes. http://www.wesh.com/video/18275048/index.html

If Casey actually said, "They haven't even found the clothes yet" to bounty hunters then perhaps she planned the whole thing. Maybe she took the murder/death clothes or clothes with chloroform and tried to plant them somewhere to be found later and lend weight to a kidnapping.

If the body was placed there and not found, it's possible there is other evidence that hasn't been found at another location.

Also, the duct tape could have been placed there simply to make it look like a kidnapping.

 

[stagehand]

[/B]

Its working too so far...we keep applying logic to an illogical person...take away the attention from the search and the upcoming trial, where hopefully KC will be found guilty, and KC's worst nightmare will come true...no one will be paying any attention to her anymore...

Exactly.

I keep reading posts here expressing outrage at people making money off of this case. But look at who has certainly gained the most, the TV shows that exploit and sensationalize the case and other media that keeps printing even the most trivial of facts on the front page. They have all been giving kc all that she craves.

 

[minazoe]

It's very dangerous to challenge a sociopath and expose them for what they are. Look what happened to the young Lori Hacking when she discovered her husband was not really in medical school.

CA's therapist called Casey a sociopath, period. Just like CA, we all want to make her a kinder, gentler, less treacherous killer, because we can't conceive of this.

 

[IWannaKnow]

Hubby and I were discussing this this morning.... If KC is smart enough to premeditate this all the way back to March, why the heck not just stage an accident? If all she wanted was to get out, why not just stage a drowning in the back yard, wait just long enough, then call 911? All done, no loose ends. CA still gets punished, KC is free and lavished with sympathy...........she could even claim CA left the ladder out! That would have really turned the knife in CA! KC would win on all counts. I just don't understand.....one piece that I cannot reconcile. KC herself said that if she wanted to get rid of her she would have just given her to CA/GA. If she is as selfish as she appears, it seems like she would have wanted it all......free of Caylee and legal charges with the maxium impact on CA/GA. Could she have been that short-sighted?

Mods....I didn't find anything where this question had been directly discussed. If I am wrong, I understand.......off to merge land.