A Pre Meditated Murder? or Accidental?

[minazoe]

endless discussion on thsi point.

she may have tried to do just that, but it didn't work out...early on I speculated that she tried to do this on "the flury of calls day"...but no one answered her calls.

this is how we know...the endless lying.

she only had a small window where she could make this an accident....after that it when in to full blown cover up.

no no, she had all the time in the world to look innocent...in her narcissism she beleives she will out smart everyone and get out of the trouble she is in...

all the evidence will point to pre-meditated homicide, from the Zanny searches...to the chloroform ..to the shovel...to the duct tape.

 

[madeleine]

I know I am in minority here but I am still not convinced that it was premeditated.Those searches could mean anything....I'd go for accidental death and cover up right now.BUT I am sure that if they charged her with murder 1 there's gotta be SOMETHING that shows it was premeditated,they can't just risk and base this solely on those searches.moo

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

If all she wanted was to get out, why not just stage a drowning in the back yard, wait just long enough, then call 911? All done, no loose ends. CA still gets punished, KC is free and lavished with sympathy

SNIP

Your entirely reasonable question works hard against a premeditated murder.

 

[yolorado]

IMO, Caylee wasn't necessarily the target of her ill-formed little murder scenarios, which she was probably playing with, but which may have never gotten past the pipe dream stage. KC's organizational skills are scattered at best, more likely non-existant. She's just not that good at planning and executing. In fact, I think she's really bad at it. She might have thought of all kinds of ideas for something she wanted to do. She may have even tried the accident scenario with Caylee but it didn't work. I think she has zero capacity to juggle even one ball even if she could manage to get it in the air. She gets by with her looks and by smooth and fast talking, or she did. Doesn't seem to me like she ever developed any organizational skills. IMO, she didn't have the wherewithall to plot and execute, at least anything that stood any chance of working. More likely to me--something just happened. High probably she caused it through her temper, her action or her inaction, maybe she had some obviously ill-conceived plan, but this one seems incapable of anything more. The chloroform? Did she make it? Did it cause Caylee's demise on purpose or by accident? Can that be proven? Who knows? Hope so. Is her baby dead while in her care and thrown away in the swamp? You betcha. Was it by something she did and then tried to cover up? Can that be proven to the satisfaction of a jury? ABSOLUTELY.

 

[bunnyphoenix1]

Hubby and I were discussing this this morning.... If KC is smart enough to premeditate this all the way back to March, why the heck not just stage an accident? If all she wanted was to get out, why not just stage a drowning in the back yard, wait just long enough, then call 911? All done, no loose ends. CA still gets punished, KC is free and lavished with sympathy...........she could even claim CA left the ladder out! That would have really turned the knife in CA! KC would win on all counts. I just don't understand.....one piece that I cannot reconcile. KC herself said that if she wanted to get rid of her she would have just given her to CA/GA. If she is as selfish as she appears, it seems like she would have wanted it all......free of Caylee and legal charges with the maxium impact on CA/GA. Could she have been that short-sighted?

Mods....I didn't find anything where this question had been directly discussed. If I am wrong, I understand.......off to merge land.

KC is not clever at all and based on her past dealings, she just assumed the police would accept everything she said and not investigate her. She probably didn't want to be looked at as being irresponsible and thought she'd get away with blaming it on Zanny.

 

[bunnyphoenix1]

I know I am in minority here but I am still not convinced that it was premeditated.Those searches could mean anything....I'd go for accidental death and cover up right now.BUT I am sure that if they charged her with murder 1 there's gotta be SOMETHING that shows it was premeditated,they can't just risk and base this solely on those searches.moo

If it was an accident, wouldn't you expect her to show some signs of sorrow, grief, or at least some despondency?? She just parties and looks like she is sooo happy. I don't see that behaviour as at all consistent with a mother accidentally killing her child.

 

[Marple]

Hubby and I were discussing this this morning.... If KC is smart enough to premeditate this all the way back to March, why the heck not just stage an accident? If all she wanted was to get out, why not just stage a drowning in the back yard, wait just long enough, then call 911? All done, no loose ends.

Well, that would have been easier but a bit mundane for someone who loves drama. "The nanny stole my baby!" makes a better movie script.

I don't think it would have occurred to KC to simply stage a drowning; she preferred a more dramatic story line. You can see this from all the fantastic lies she's told before. It's never something simple, it's very detailed.

 

[Insomnia Momma]

Well, that would have been easier but a bit mundane for someone who loves drama. "The nanny stole my baby!" makes a better movie script.

I don't think it would have occurred to KC to simply stage a drowning; she preferred a more dramatic story line. You can see this from all the fantastic lies she's told before. It's never something simple, it's very detailed.

I agree 100%.

She likes the drama and wanted to play the victim, maybe even get some money out of it. A (planned) accidental drowning wouldn't provide that for her. :chicken:

 

[madeleine]

If it was an accident, wouldn't you expect her to show some signs of sorrow, grief, or at least some despondency?? She just parties and looks like she is sooo happy. I don't see that behaviour as at all consistent with a mother accidentally killing her child.

Not really,maybe it was convenient for her,she didn't care anyway.

 

[PaperDoll]

If it was an accident, wouldn't you expect her to show some signs of sorrow, grief, or at least some despondency?? She just parties and looks like she is sooo happy. I don't see that behaviour as at all consistent with a mother accidentally killing her child.

I agree with this.. I know if I accidently killed someone, anyone, I'd feel so horrible afterwards.. I'd be crying and freaking out. I would be depressed and not having the time of my life. I would probably need lots of medication and alcohol though.. lol

 

[yolorado]

If it was an accident, wouldn't you expect her to show some signs of sorrow, grief, or at least some despondency?? She just parties and looks like she is sooo happy. I don't see that behaviour as at all consistent with a mother accidentally killing her child.

If it was an accident, it might have been through her gross negligence (leaving baby in car with chloroform she was playing around with, for whatever reason, or after she'd drugged Caylee so she could party.) It might have been a snap. Her temper got the best of her and she killed the baby, meaning to at the moment or not really meaning to, but she was in a rage and it happened. She and Cindy are so emmeshed in such unhealthy ways, not even getting to her relationship with George and Lee. I can ABSOLUTLEY see her trying to hide an accident at the time it happened so Cindy wouldn't find out because the worse thing for KC might have been to lose Cindy forever, and she might have thought that would happen. Even now, in KC's mind, she might prefer LIP to having her family find out, or Baez could be calling all the shots and keeping her away from everyone so she won't break down. What these people have got going on is not normal or healthy. I can see KC lookin' down at the remains wishing she could have it all back, feeling as if her Mommy would never forgive her and just moving on...figuring she'd come up with something later. She just hadn't quite gotten around to it a month later. But I think that's who she is. That seems to be her personality, disorder, psychiatric condition whatever. I don't think she insane enough to not know what she did, or that is was very wrong, but I think she's quite a few logs short of a complete wood pile.

 

[Marple]

KC is not clever at all and based on her past dealings, she just assumed the police would accept everything she said and not investigate her. She probably didn't want to be looked at as being irresponsible and thought she'd get away with blaming it on Zanny.

This is true, especially when you realize that she had done previous searches for ZFG in the months prior. I think that shows the plan all along was to blame someone else.

 

[VALee]

If it was an accident, wouldn't you expect her to show some signs of sorrow, grief, or at least some despondency?? She just parties and looks like she is sooo happy. I don't see that behaviour as at all consistent with a mother accidentally killing her child.

I think despondency was displayed when her cell phone activity decreased significantly for days after the ETD. She was in essence hiding out, in my opinion. Didn't last long though did it?

 

[forensicbuff5747]

she could have staged an acident but i guarantee you she wouldn't have gotten away w/ it. if she put any kind of drug or chemical in caylee, then faked a drowning the coroner would find that. i think she would have to be more stupid than she already is to try that. with todays technology/forensics she wouldnt have gotten away with it. that's why i really believe she gave caylee something, be it chloroform, xanax, something. because she has to know they would've discovered it. also. (we all know this im sure) she didn't call 911 or anything cause she wanted to party. how sick. one question i have had, rather a comment, did she NOT think that someone would start asking questions? as if CA and GA would never come looking for caylee? DUH! makes me sick.

 

[wanetta]

Whether accidental or on purpose, I don't think Casey wanted to lose her position with the family (i.e. being kept up totally). And I think that is why she would make up a story where "the nanny did it", to stay in favor with the parents who keep her up. I also think that she might have always been the type person that no matter what happens, someone else is to blame. We probably can all think of family/friends like that. You know, if they say "what a pretty, sunshiney day!" -- we run to the window to look out! lol

 

[MomofBoys]

I always see these references to an "accidental" chloroform death. There is nothing "accidental" about OD'ing your child on chloroform, intentionally or not. Chloroform is a controlled substance and you can't just go to Target and buy it like baby Benedryl. IF, IF, IF I was going to drug my toddler for oartying (never, never, never) I'd go that route first. Chloroform is a dangerous, powerful pollutant and it's unpredictable. Even if KC read a lot of Nancy Drew as a young child, she'd know that chloroform is generally used in nefarious ways. It's not like you're having trouble sleeping at night and are all "Oh, I'm out of Tylenol PM. Thank goodness I have this unmarked container of chloroform in heavy plastic."

Maybe she did use it for sex. Kids today! I'm not that much older than KC and I've never seen it used around here for such things. Of course, I'm not that much of a party girl. Anyway, moving on.

Maybe accidents can happen to sociopaths, too, but it would have been the easiest way to stage this. IMO we'll learn there was something in that bag (or something else unreleased) that points directly to homicide. And of course, KC would know that. I don't think she's the genius that some make her out to be, but she's not stupid. She didn't know if and when they'd find Caylee. She didn't know how much decomposition would hae occured by that point. If she feared that the real COD would be apparent to the ME, she'd have no choice than to stage a kidnapping. She had to, because it's very possible they've already discovered that this was no accident.

I do believe that she could have intentionally OD'd her on Chloroform, as it'd be a "clean" passive way to kill someone. But maybe she was like me. I mean, I didn't know that you needed soft tissue to test for its presence. I figured it would have been detectable in hair. So unless she used it a lot, it wouldn't necessarily show up. Maybe Casey didn't do enough research. She thought it'd be present no matter what. I just think it's interesting that most non-violent storybook kidnappings, chloroform is involved.

 

[Marple]

one question i have had, rather a comment, did she NOT think that someone would start asking questions? as if CA and GA would never come looking for caylee? DUH! makes me sick.

I believe she didn't give much forethought to how she would explain things. She could just answer the questions as they came up.

Her friends and family saw through her lies for years and gave her a pass. I believe she seriously thought this would play out the same way. They'd ask questions, she'd give them an answer, they would believe her answers (as this was the pattern she'd learned) and she'd go about her merry way, basking in the sympathy of friends and family.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Hubby and I were discussing this this morning.... If KC is smart enough to premeditate this all the way back to March, why the heck not just stage an accident? If all she wanted was to get out, why not just stage a drowning in the back yard, wait just long enough, then call 911? All done, no loose ends. CA still gets punished, KC is free and lavished with sympathy...........she could even claim CA left the ladder out! That would have really turned the knife in CA! KC would win on all counts. I just don't understand.....one piece that I cannot reconcile. KC herself said that if she wanted to get rid of her she would have just given her to CA/GA. If she is as selfish as she appears, it seems like she would have wanted it all......free of Caylee and legal charges with the maxium impact on CA/GA. Could she have been that short-sighted?

Mods....I didn't find anything where this question had been directly discussed. If I am wrong, I understand.......off to merge land.

I believe that WAS the plan, but something unexpected happened the night of the 15th and she flew into a rage on Caylee and killed her before she had a new plan.

I also believe the plan was to do away with GA also. (the home self defense) He was not a part of "the family" in KC, CA & LA's eyes. He was an object of ridicule and KC was through with him too.

That $15,000 she kept talking about to everyone was either an insurance policy on Caylee or GA.

 

[LucyLu]

I know I am in minority here but I am still not convinced that it was premeditated.Those searches could mean anything....I'd go for accidental death and cover up right now.BUT I am sure that if they charged her with murder 1 there's gotta be SOMETHING that shows it was premeditated,they can't just risk and base this solely on those searches.moo

I agree with it probably not be premeditated. I think they had to charge her with that as well in case something else turned up. Or maybe to help push her into copping a plea??

 

[Spookydancer]

or Baez could be calling all the shots and keeping her away from everyone so she won't break down. QUOTE]

I have often wondered how much control Baez has over Casey. What if Casey wanted to confess but was advised not to, because Baez would have to be removed from the case. OF course, he wants to keep his name and face out there. I think the family should really question his motives and what is telling Casey...It all seems fishy to me!

Maybe Baez is holding the truth hostage because he wants to be superhero!