A rather "personal" question about female part

[DeeDee249]

Just wanted to comment on something that has been on my mind. You all are so dedicated to this case and I don't really know all the facts as you do, but no, a six yr. old does not know about such things as what is brought up in the poll. There would not be a need for a six yr. old to know, or even be able to comprehend that IMO. I have read PTPM but just now getting around to reading ST book. But wanted to say that putting a size 12 panties on a six yr. old is such a guy thing to do. If a mom wanted to put new panties on her child, she would go to her drawer, get out the correct ones, but IMO, a dad would be clueless. He would assume that a new pack of girls panties would be for his daughter? I am making some assumptions here, and no offense to men, but I can see JR doing that.

It's not quite that simple. These panties were bought by Patsy on a shopping trip to NY just weeks before the murder. They were bought as a gift for JB's cousin, who was a few years older. These panties were thought to be wrapped (by Patsy) up in a gift box, of which a few were found in the wineceller (a very moldy and dirty room). The tip of one appears in a crime photo taken by police, who found them partially opened. Wrapping gifts is also a kind of girl thing to do, and Patsy has admitted wrapping gifts in the basement. They needed clean panties to put on JB. Her own panties were 2 floors up, in her bathroom panty drawer. It was too risky to go up there to get them, especially as her brother BR was in a nearby room. He may have heard the scream or other activity. So what they had to do was take a new pair out of a wrapped gift right there in the basement. Now, JR's fibers inside the panty crotch link him to putting them on her, IMO, but that doesn't mean it was because he was clueless about the sizes. It was pretty much Patsy who knew that they were there in that gift box. If JR took them out, it was because he was told to do so.
Under the tight-fitting longjohns, it wasn't really noticeable that the panties were that big, and that it exactly what the stagers thought-that no one would notice. But at autopsy, the panties and longjohns were removed, and that's when LE saw them and knew something wasn't right.

 

[txsvicki]

Were the size 12 panties on JonBenet stained with urine the same as the longjohn pajama bottoms?

 

[CathyR]

Hey Super Dave or DEEDEE do you know? I have a couple of questions and txsvicki has asked a good one too.

I thought Patsy said JBR wanted "big girl panties" could this also be a 6 yr olds response to the expression "put on your big girl panties and deal with it."
A six year old would think it meant size not mental ability.

Were the size 12 panties on JonBenet stained with urine the same as the longjohn pajama bottoms?

Good question, you may want to direct it to Super Dave or DEEDEE they seem to know more about the ins and outs of this case.I would like to elaborate on your question.

If the urine is also on the big size panties as well as the long johns is the pattern of urine the same.

I think no urine on the panties shows the oversized panties were put on her after wetting the pair that fit her.

 

[LinasK]

Patsy ADMITTED in her interviews that the panties found on her daughter were the ones she bought for her niece, who was several years older than JB.
Yes, bubble baths can cause irritation in children, particularly. But Patsy brought JB SEVERAL times to the pediatrician for her infections. How many timed does a mother have to be told to stop giving her kid bubble baths?
If JB was itchy and getting infections, her poor hygiene (infrequent baths, not wiping well after bowel movements) were a likely cause.
Another likely cause? Sexual abuse and inserting anything foreign (a finger, for example) into her. At that age, a little girl's labia are "sealed" in a way, the opening almost fused closed. To insert anything, the labia would have to be manually opened.
Patsy was also reported by some sources to use a douche on JB because she thought JB's constant soiling herself were causing the infections. Possibly they were, but the answer wasn't douching. That can upset the PH balance in the vagina and make infections more likely.

Exactly! Vaginitis from Bubble Bath doesn't begin to explain away the vaginal trauma/enlargement that JB had!

 

[Toltec]

Patsy had a hysterectomy...no tampons were in the home. It is ludicrous to suggest that Patsy douched JonBenet...for heavens sake, she was not like Sybil's mother!

 

[2goldfish]

Were the size 12 panties on JonBenet stained with urine the same as the longjohn pajama bottoms?

as I recall NO and not any of the blood either. this is how they knew there was at the very least cleanup, which an intruder wasnt likely to do...



but I am not one of the JBR experts and cant back it up without more googling than I have time for :angel:

 

[BBB167893]

Hey Super Dave or DEEDEE do you know? I have a couple of questions and txsvicki has asked a good one too.

I thought Patsy said JBR wanted "big girl panties" could this also be a 6 yr olds response to the expression "put on your big girl panties and deal with it."
A six year old would think it meant size not mental ability.

Good question, you may want to direct it to Super Dave or DEEDEE they seem to know more about the ins and outs of this case. I would like to elaborate on your question.

If the urine is also on the big size panties as well as the long johns is the pattern of urine the same.

I think no urine on the panties shows the oversized panties were put on her after wetting the pair that fit her.

I appreciate the faith you show in me, CathyR. In truth, when it comes to certain subjects, there are posters far more knowledgable than I am. But I'll give it a try.

According to the autopsy report, the oversize panties were "urine stained" but it does not state how large the stain was. So, for all we know, that could be from coming into contact with the stained longjohns.

Sorry, folks. Seems like every answer leads to a bigger question.

 

[LinasK]

According to the autopsy report, the oversize panties were "urine stained" but it does not state how large the stain was. So, for all we know, that could be from coming into contact with the stained longjohns.

Or...postmortem voiding/discharge of urine

 

[BBB167893]

Or...postmortem voiding/discharge of urine

That's another possibility.

 

[cynic]

Both the panties and the long johns had urine stains in the crotch area.
Only the panties had visible blood stains.
The urine staining was more extensive in the long johns
The following is from the autopsy report:
There are long white underwear with an elastic waist band containing a red and blue stripe. The long underwear are urine stained anteriorly over the crotch area and anterior legs. No defects are identified. Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words "Wednesday" on the elastic waist band. The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch in maximum dimension

 

[DeeDee249]

as I recall NO and not any of the blood either. this is how they knew there was at the very least cleanup, which an intruder wasnt likely to do...



but I am not one of the JBR experts and cant back it up without more googling than I have time for :angel:

Actually, this is incorrect. There was both blood and urine on the panties and urine only on the longjohns. We do know that there was a cleanup because the coroner told LE that his findings of her own wiped-off blood and some dark fibers found on her thighs and pubic area were consistent with her having been wiped down with a cloth. Here is what I think- the urine probably came from postmortem voiding of the bladder. The original panties, in JB's proper size, likely had significantly more blood, necessitating their replacement with the size 12s. The size 12s have only very small droplets of blood on them- certainly too small an amount for the kind of bleeding that would have required wiping down. I feel the longjohns were obviously off when whatever injury she sustained that caused the bleeding happened. Then, she was redressed in the replacement panties, and a few drops of blood oozed out at that point, then the longjohns were replaced. Dead people don't bleed, so she was alive at the time of the bleeding. Voiding the bladder could have happened at the moment of death during the first stage of death known as primary flaccidity. That's when the panties and longjohns were wet with urine.

 

[DeeDee249]

Hey Super Dave or DEEDEE do you know? I have a couple of questions and txsvicki has asked a good one too.

I thought Patsy said JBR wanted "big girl panties" could this also be a 6 yr olds response to the expression "put on your big girl panties and deal with it."
A six year old would think it meant size not mental ability.



Good question, you may want to direct it to Super Dave or DEEDEE they seem to know more about the ins and outs of this case.I would like to elaborate on your question.

If the urine is also on the big size panties as well as the long johns is the pattern of urine the same.

I think no urine on the panties shows the oversized panties were put on her after wetting the pair that fit her.

As had been answered, she did have urine on BOTH the panties and longjohns. There was enough urine voided to stain the front of the legs of the longjohns, not just the crotch. Our kidneys are always working, and there is usually always some urine in the bladder, but to void a larger amount at death would meant that she had eaten or drank something (which we know she did- the pineapple) before her death. If she had a bedwetting/soiling incident that night, there still would be urine in the bladder to void at death, though it might not be much. Because the urine stains were anterior (front), we can conclude that she was on her stomach when it voided, which coincides with the tying of the garrote knot, which was also at he back of her neck. It would be pretty hard to tie a knot at the back of someone's neck when they are lying on their back. The way I see it- she is lying on her stomach when she died and voided her bladded, just outside the wineceller (where urine stains were found on a carpet). Then she is placed in the wineceller on her back on top of the white blanket. As far as I know, the white blanket did not have urine stains on it, which tells me that she was placed on it after death. The livor mortis patterns found on her indicated she was not moved after death, at least for the first hour or to the point where livor becomes fixed. So, I'd say she was put on her back in the wineceller anywhere from immediately after death to within 10-16 minutes of death.

JB had been potty trained and wearing "big girl panties" since age 3. It was only in the months before her death that she began to have accidents, both when asleep and awake. It is the accidents (especially soiling) while awake that is more disturbing and more indicative of a problem than bed-wetting, though even that should cause concern when it happens after the child has already been dry through the night for years.

 

[DeeDee249]

Hey Super Dave or DEEDEE do you know? I have a couple of questions and txsvicki has asked a good one too.

I thought Patsy said JBR wanted "big girl panties" could this also be a 6 yr olds response to the expression "put on your big girl panties and deal with it."
A six year old would think it meant size not mental ability.



Good question, you may want to direct it to Super Dave or DEEDEE they seem to know more about the ins and outs of this case.I would like to elaborate on your question.

If the urine is also on the big size panties as well as the long johns is the pattern of urine the same.

I think no urine on the panties shows the oversized panties were put on her after wetting the pair that fit her.

As has been said, there was urine on BOTH the size 12 panties and longjohns.
JB had been potty trained since age 3, so she had been wearing "big girl" panties for three years already at the time of her death. Patsy said she went through a period of having JB wear pull-ups diapers, but that she eventually gave up on that.
Many kids wet the bed. But when a child that had been toilet trained for three years begins to wet and soil, that indicates a problem. The wetting and soiling when awake are more disturbing than bedtime accidents. But even bedtime accidents are cause for concern when they occur after the child had been dry for a few years.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

As has been said, there was urine on BOTH the size 12 panties and longjohns.
JB had been potty trained since age 3, so she had been wearing "big girl" panties for three years already at the time of her death. Patsy said she went through a period of having JB wear pull-ups diapers, but that she eventually gave up on that.
Many kids wet the bed. But when a child that had been toilet trained for three years begins to wet and soil, that indicates a problem. The wetting and soiling when awake are more disturbing than bedtime accidents. But even bedtime accidents are cause for concern when they occur after the child had been dry for a few years.

I believe I posted this once before, but at this point it is worth referencing again:

http://www.way2hope.org/signs_of_child_molestation.htm

Signs Of Child Molestation

The younger the child, the more difficult it is to determine if your child has been or is being molested. As a teenager, or even pre-teen, they may just blurt it out, but then you have the problem determining if the accusation was motivated by something other than molestation. We've all heard of the false accusations that ruin the reputations of upstanding citizens. So, how can you know if someone is victimizing your child? Unless you witness it or someone admits it...you can't! Everything relies on your best guess based on the evidence you find. Obviously, you need to have very strong suspicions before formally accusing someone and needlessly damaging their reputation. A great tool to help you assess the possibility of molestation is the following Signs of Child Molestation produced by the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children. Following the signs, we'll discuss some actions to take.

Signs of Sexual Exploitation in Children: Parents, grandparents, and guardians should be aware of the signs noted below that could indicate your child has been sexually molested. You should note that some of these behaviors may have other explanations, but it is important to assist your child no matter what the cause of these symptoms or behaviors.

Changes in behavior, extreme mood swings, withdrawal, fearfulness, and excessive crying
Bed-wetting, nightmares, fear of going to bed, or other sleep disturbances
Acting out inappropriate sexual activity or showing an unusual interest in sexual matters
A sudden acting out of feelings or aggressive or rebellious behavior
Regression to infantile behavior; clinging
School or behavioral problems
Changes in toilet-training habits
A fear of certain places, people, or activities
Bruises, rashes, cuts, limping, multiple or poorly explained injuries
Pain, itching, bleeding, fluid, or rawness in the private areas

 

[BBB167893]

I believe I posted this once before, but at this point it is worth referencing again:

http://www.way2hope.org/signs_of_child_molestation.htm

Signs Of Child Molestation

The younger the child, the more difficult it is to determine if your child has been or is being molested. As a teenager, or even pre-teen, they may just blurt it out, but then you have the problem determining if the accusation was motivated by something other than molestation. We've all heard of the false accusations that ruin the reputations of upstanding citizens. So, how can you know if someone is victimizing your child? Unless you witness it or someone admits it...you can't! Everything relies on your best guess based on the evidence you find. Obviously, you need to have very strong suspicions before formally accusing someone and needlessly damaging their reputation. A great tool to help you assess the possibility of molestation is the following Signs of Child Molestation produced by the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children. Following the signs, we'll discuss some actions to take.

Signs of Sexual Exploitation in Children: Parents, grandparents, and guardians should be aware of the signs noted below that could indicate your child has been sexually molested. You should note that some of these behaviors may have other explanations, but it is important to assist your child no matter what the cause of these symptoms or behaviors.

Changes in behavior, extreme mood swings, withdrawal, fearfulness, and excessive crying
Bed-wetting, nightmares, fear of going to bed, or other sleep disturbances
Acting out inappropriate sexual activity or showing an unusual interest in sexual matters
A sudden acting out of feelings or aggressive or rebellious behavior
Regression to infantile behavior; clinging
School or behavioral problems
Changes in toilet-training habitsA fear of certain places, people, or activities
Bruises, rashes, cuts, limping, multiple or poorly explained injuries
Pain, itching, bleeding, fluid, or rawness in the private areas

I bolded the ones which seem to have bearing on this. I'm especially curious about that one about acting out inappropriately. As in a six-year-old who's too friendly and flirts with people...

 

[EastCoast]

It's not quite that simple. These panties were bought by Patsy on a shopping trip to NY just weeks before the murder. They were bought as a gift for JB's cousin, who was a few years older. These panties were thought to be wrapped (by Patsy) up in a gift box, of which a few were found in the wineceller (a very moldy and dirty room). The tip of one appears in a crime photo taken by police, who found them partially opened. Wrapping gifts is also a kind of girl thing to do, and Patsy has admitted wrapping gifts in the basement. They needed clean panties to put on JB. Her own panties were 2 floors up, in her bathroom panty drawer. It was too risky to go up there to get them, especially as her brother BR was in a nearby room. He may have heard the scream or other activity. So what they had to do was take a new pair out of a wrapped gift right there in the basement. Now, JR's fibers inside the panty crotch link him to putting them on her, IMO, but that doesn't mean it was because he was clueless about the sizes. It was pretty much Patsy who knew that they were there in that gift box. If JR took them out, it was because he was told to do so.
Under the tight-fitting longjohns, it wasn't really noticeable that the panties were that big, and that it exactly what the stagers thought-that no one would notice. But at autopsy, the panties and longjohns were removed, and that's when LE saw them and knew something wasn't right.

Thank you, that makes alot of sense to me

 

[Truthful Lies]

As much as I don't want to post this, there could have been tampons in the house for fluids other than blood (as in...too much fluid on a regular basis. I've had several OB/GYNs assure me that it's okay to wear them for that reason, as pantyliners day in and day out are completely annoying). Errr...would there still be discharge in a woman with a hysterectomy? Also, I have used vinegar on a tampon to help with yeast issues, as otc stuff doesnt work, diflucan doesn't and rx cream side effects suck). Anyhoo.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[DeeDee249]

As much as I don't want to post this, there could have been tampons in the house for fluids other than blood (as in...too much fluid on a regular basis. I've had several OB/GYNs assure me that it's okay to wear them for that reason, as pantyliners day in and day out are completely annoying). Errr...would there still be discharge in a woman with a hysterectomy? Also, I have used vinegar on a tampon to help with yeast issues, as otc stuff doesnt work, diflucan doesn't and rx cream side effects suck). Anyhoo.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I am WAY past the age were these are needed, but I always have a box on hand in case a visitor may need one.

 

[chemgirl]

As much as I don't want to post this, there could have been tampons in the house for fluids other than blood (as in...too much fluid on a regular basis.

Women are sometimes advised to insert a tampon to help prevent urinary incontinence....could Patsy have read about this type of use and tried it on her daughter to prevent accidents? I hate to think of it, but...:what:

 

[LinasK]

Women are sometimes advised to insert a tampon to help prevent urinary incontinence....could Patsy have read about this type of use and tried it on her daughter to prevent accidents? I hate to think of it, but...:what:

I've never been advised of this! How would that work? I can't describe it without getting anatomically graphic, but where you pee is NOT where the tampon would be...