Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #175

[mrjitty]

I also don't get the sense that they are kicking this all back to her to have a DQ hearing to get rid of AB and BR, either. Although, to be honest, I don't know enough about the law to know if I'm reading that right.

They say quite clearly at page 16 that adverse decisions and even hostile comment isn't enough. From reading the cases cited by Judge Gull's counsel, it seems usually some external factor is required to create a perception of bias - e.g. if the Judge used to work at counsels law firm or something that might give rise to a perception of favouritism. e.g maybe years ago the Judge made strong comments about something to do with the case. I guess this is why the lately threw in the sport tourney thing

 

[TL4S]

They say quite clearly at page 16 that adverse decisions and even hostile comment isn't enough. From reading the cases cited by Judge Gull's counsel, it seems usually some external factor is required to create a perception of bias - e.g. if the Judge used to work at counsels law firm or something that might give rise to a perception of favouritism. e.g maybe years ago the Judge made strong comments about something to do with the case. I guess this is why the lately threw in the sport tourney thing

Yes, this is regarding the judge getting DQ'd. But some people have wondered if JG could still hold a DQ hearing to get rid of AB and BR. This is what I'm thinking has kind of been taken off the table by the SCOIN, as well, but I'm not sure.

 

[TL4S]

Devil's other advocate:

The State only has to present the minimum of information in their PCA. They didn't have to include other facts about about their theory, just the likelihood that based on their interview with RA & KA the had reasonable belief that evidence relating to the murders of Abby & Libby could be found at that location based on X,Y,Z.

Unlike the Franks Memo crafted by the defense at 136 pages (and should have been at most 10-12) they laid out their whole theory of their case. They named suspects (Named them for all the world to see), they described in graphic and exploitive details the CS of Abby & Libby which was completely reprehensible. They accused LE of lying and withholding information purposely, although...bingo....footnote - we might not have reviewed all discovery. What?

The PCA is also a sworn and notarized statement to the Court, not a Memo with a crap ton of footnotes that mitigate about 1/4 of what they're even suggesting. What they did was wrong, they knew it was wrong, they did it deceitfully; filing at 2:04 am without the Clerk being present, without it being marked Confidential..."Oooopsie, we didn't know heehee" because they planned on getting around the gag order and pushed it out to media and SM ASAP.

It really is that simple, and to me if they're willing to stoop to that kind of behavior I don't trust one word that comes out of their mouths or one word that comes from their pens.

Too bad the SCOIN didn't have the latest LE findings showing how much more culpable R&B are than they knew at that time. I wonder if that would have changed their opinion? I wonder if Judge Gull will now follow procedural process to get them removed from the case?

#Justice4Abby&Libby

JMO

Now tell me how you really feel, @girlhasnoname. I applaud your strong stance and you ask fair questions.

 

[Marzipan]

Small community hunches?

Given what we know of the crime scene, it might have been one of their earliest theories?

I’m pretty sure you are right that it was an early theory and with the good reason that the crime scene looked “nonsecular.”
I sure wish podcasts would always post transcripts for accessibility and for those who prefer reading. I don’t see one for Episode 5 of Down the Hill with Robert Ives talking about it. I think some generous soul may have transcribed it somewhere. I have a vague memory of that because WOW, that’s a lot of work. But here’s the episode. ‎Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders: Chapter 5: Signatures on Apple Podcasts
I’ve recently watched True Detective season 1, which I believe is from 2014. Murdered girl posed with antlers and such cultish things, cultish ring and killer. Have wondered if the killer watched that show or a similar one and got the idea to make it look like that. That would take some planning, I think, although it could have occurred to him after the kill if all the props were already there naturally — just sticks and such.
ETA, maybe Episode 4 of DTH too, Evidence. Looks like cujenne has done a ton of transcription in the media thread, and those episodes were in February or so if 2020.

 

[Emma Peel]

Yes, this is regarding the judge getting DQ'd. But some people have wondered if JG could still hold a DQ hearing to get rid of AB and BR. This is what I'm thinking has kind of been taken off the table by the SCOIN, as well, but I'm not sure.

IMO, it seems to me that SCOIN pretty much said to Gull: "Sure, go hold them in contempt, but DQ-ing is overkill, these lawyers are clearly qualified and competent. It's okay that you over-reacted to a leak emergency, all forgiven, now you have a do-over. Also we agree it kinda sucks that RA has those unusually rough detention conditions, but oh well. Play ball." JMHO

 

[twall]

Gull rescheduled Monday's hearing.

 

[Emma Peel]

Gull rescheduled Monday's hearing.

Thanks @twall

Noting from this screenshot from the docket:

- Congrats to the Defense. Gull granted them a Motion. (*faint*) (granting motion to continue)

- Gull has DENIED WITHOUT A HEARING RA's Motion for Transfer (the one Lebrato/Scremin prepared).

- Gull has rescheduled the Contempt hearing - allowing more than a month prep for the moved Feb 12th hearing (moved to Mar 18). (Wonder if we might expect McL to correct his disaster of a motion for contempt, since there's plenty of time to do so?)

- Gull hasn't addressed Ausbrook, who Motioned to Summarily Deny the Contempt Motion ... (or has she, sort of?)

 

[TL4S]

IMO, it seems to me that SCOIN pretty much said to Gull: "Sure, go hold them in contempt, but DQ-ing is overkill, these lawyers are clearly qualified and competent. It's okay that you over-reacted to a leak emergency, all forgiven, now you have a do-over. Also we agree it kinda sucks that RA has those unusually rough detention conditions, but oh well. Play ball." JMHO

Dang, I read 4 pages of legal jibberish when I could have read your perfectly summarized single paragraph...

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, this is regarding the judge getting DQ'd. But some people have wondered if JG could still hold a DQ hearing to get rid of AB and BR. This is what I'm thinking has kind of been taken off the table by the SCOIN, as well, but I'm not sure.

Oh sure - no way that happens.

They've been pretty clear that the prejudice to RA is too high, and she has other options like sanctions.

My last thought on all of this is RA might live to regret this outcome.

Splitting the baby might be the correct legal decision, but i think in practice it's the dumbest outcome.

 

[twall]

Thanks @twall

Noting from this screenshot from the docket:

- Congrats to the Defense. Gull granted them a Motion. (*faint*) (granting motion to continue)

- Gull has DENIED WITHOUT A HEARING RA's Motion for Transfer (the one Lebrato/Scremin prepared).

- Gull has rescheduled the Contempt hearing - allowing more than a month prep for the moved Feb 12th hearing (moved to Mar 18). (Wonder if we might expect McL to correct his disaster of a motion for contempt, since there's plenty of time to do so?)

- Gull hasn't addressed Ausbrook, who Motioned to Summarily Deny the Contempt Motion ... (or has she, sort of?)

You're welcome! I screen grabbed it real quick as I am way behind on the updates here due to watching the Harmony Montgomery trial but it has adjourned for the day.

I can tell hubby not to expect a lot of traffic near his worksite on Monday. Fun fact-Ft. Wayne has an infamous revolving bread sign on top of a downtown building.

Aunt Millie’s to move downtown Fort Wayne headquarters to Waynedale

After over 80 years of business in downtown Fort Wayne, leaders of Aunt Millie’s Bakeries say they are moving their family-owned corporate headquarters.

www.21alivenews.com

 

[justtrish]

I feel like RA’s team are literally just throwing a lot of dirt at the wall to see what sticks. They know with him confessing multiple times and placing himself at the Bridge is a massive hurdle to over come.

IMO

It seems to be working in the court of public opinion.. maybe that is the goal.. taint a jury pool with the circus they are creating.

I tend to not believe a theory that must involve not only many in LE lying/hiding/covering up things, but also many coincidences just having to happen that point to one person, but it just isn't him.. most unlucky guy ever type scenario. (I realized there are corrupt LE)

If he would have been arrested within weeks of the murders, I think many would just accept it was him.. he said he was there, he admits to seeing girls that also admit they saw him close to the time in question. He has no alibi except he was there and he admits to wearing the same clothing as seen in a video of the murderer.. I think if he was arrested early on with that info that is known.. (him admitting to bein there and in the same clothing) how many would even question the arrest? I think because that interview he did with the conservation officers wasn't known by all and it didn't get followed up on.. it went on for years and now it seems questionable and we want to have some alternative theory as to why he was arrested and it is being pinned on him. What if it's just that simple... he did it, he was there, he was in the same clothing, he hid in plain sight for years and when someone reviewing the leads realized this was overlooked, they interview him and execute the search warrant that finds something connecting him. Sucks that this went on for so long, but again if the arrest would have happened just after his interview then how many would think there was some other explanation and some mistake?

 

[Salah11]

< modsnip - quoted post was removed>


I feel like social media has really done a disservice to this case.

It blew up in a way that made the murder of two young girls entertainment for loads of people.

Then add in so many twists and turns and a majority can not bare the thought of their suspect actually not doing it after investigating so much time into it.

RA came out of left field for so many it’s easy to jump on a conspiracy theory for many.


This post is not knocking anybody on this thread it’s just in general about Social media and the damage it can do to cases like this unfortunately and not forgetting the innocent names that are forever linked negatively in this case.

I can remember back in the day the videos on YouTube and you would get multiple videos a day all trying to make money off an awful tragedy. For every decent video there would be 20 bad ones just looking for clicks.


IMO it’s just one big mess and I just hope RA goes to jail for life and doesn’t get off on some technicality.

MOOOOOO

 

[photographer4]

It seems to be working in the court of public opinion.. maybe that is the goal.. taint a jury pool with the circus they are creating.

I tend to not believe a theory that must involve not only many in LE lying/hiding/covering up things, but also many coincidences just having to happen that point to one person, but it just isn't him.. most unlucky guy ever type scenario. (I realized there are corrupt LE)

If he would have been arrested within weeks of the murders, I think many would just accept it was him.. he said he was there, he admits to seeing girls that also admit they saw him close to the time in question. He has no alibi except he was there and he admits to wearing the same clothing as seen in a video of the murderer.. I think if he was arrested early on with that info that is known.. (him admitting to bein there and in the same clothing) how many would even question the arrest? I think because that interview he did with the conservation officers wasn't known by all and it didn't get followed up on.. it went on for years and now it seems questionable and we want to have some alternative theory as to why he was arrested and it is being pinned on him. What if it's just that simple... he did it, he was there, he was in the same clothing, he hid in plain sight for years and when someone reviewing the leads realized this was overlooked, they interview him and execute the search warrant that finds something connecting him. Sucks that this went on for so long, but again if the arrest would have happened just after his interview then how many would think there was some other explanation and some mistake?

We'd still have the same issues we have now, even if they'd got him within weeks:
- There were Odinism symbols possibly noted at the scene (per D).
- Police interviewed PW and BH - and RECORDED over it (a mistake not noted til Sept 2017).
- Police have witnesses, who saw someone, but who / what did they see exactly? Especially the lady who saw a car like her father's comet, and the lady who saw muddy man - who / what did they see exactly? We don't know as its been a bit muddy given the back and forth of D and P over this in the PCA then the FM etc...
- Eventually, we'd still have KAK show up in this mess and his catfish accounts - where / how / even DOES this fit in with the crime or were the kids just the most unlucky kids in the state that day??

Just because a man was at the scene, and seen by some girls and then a lady, does NOT make him a criminal (yet). That's a big jump that is going to need a lot of proving done by the prosecution to get their conviction (I'm NOT saying RA is innocent either - don't know, wasn't there, not enough info to the public yet).

 

[photographer4]

I used to think that we could not know for sure why the man who was asked for an interview with LE over the crime scene evidence leak had killed himself. I noted it could have been mental health etc and may not have been directly related. But now it seems clear from the recent motions by D that he killed himself "within hours" of being asked for an interview by LE over it. There was also a document that noted he made the statement "If I just come clean, this will all go away" (that may be paraphrased).

So do we think he wanted to 'come clean' over getting / forwarding the leaked info? Or do we think he knew more and was afraid to share it?? I'd really like to know more about this character!!

 

[justtrish]

We'd still have the same issues we have now, even if they'd got him within weeks:
- There were Odinism symbols possibly noted at the scene (per D).
- Police interviewed PW and BH - and RECORDED over it (a mistake not noted til Sept 2017).
- Police have witnesses, who saw someone, but who / what did they see exactly? Especially the lady who saw a car like her father's comet, and the lady who saw muddy man - who / what did they see exactly? We don't know as its been a bit muddy given the back and forth of D and P over this in the PCA then the FM etc...
- Eventually, we'd still have KAK show up in this mess and his catfish accounts - where / how / even DOES this fit in with the crime or were the kids just the most unlucky kids in the state that day??

Just because a man was at the scene, and seen by some girls and then a lady, does NOT make him a criminal (yet). That's a big jump that is going to need a lot of proving done by the prosecution to get their conviction (I'm NOT saying RA is innocent either - don't know, wasn't there, not enough info to the public yet).

If he would have been arrested immediately we wouldn't have the D with an Odinism theory and the interview wouldn't likely be recorded over because there might not even have had an interview with those two (unsure when their interview was vs when RA gave his statement. So much of what has happened wouldn't even have happened.

I think being at the scene and being seen at specific times and admitting he himself saw the people that saw him is evidence he was there very close to the time of the murders. He also admits to the clothing (I wonder if he knew the girls recorded him?) The video wasn't released immediately.. maybe a few days later so I am curious when his statement was given that placed him there in the exact clothing that shows up in a man on video?)

 

[girlhasnoname]

Now tell me how you really feel, @girlhasnoname. I applaud your strong stance and you ask fair questions.

I don't think I've reacted any differently than many others on this thread who have a strong opinion. I try my best to do it respectfully, it's important to me how we treat one another even if we don't agree.

RA=BG=Killer(s). It will be interesting to see what else shakes out in the upcoming weeks.


JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I mention social media in the context of your comment that RA potentially is the easiest to convict, thus why they allegedly chose to frame him. Curious about your thoughts on why you feel RA might be easier to convict - especially in the eyes of a jury.

As I said before, I do believe they thought he was BG when they arrested him, due to circumstantial evidence.
It's possible, MOO, that some of the evidence turned out to be not what they were hoping for.
I think it's also possible that they, then, attempted to build a case around him.
It would be huge, after all this time, work and back patting, to have to admit "He's not our guy after all."

I'm not sure how it's decided what discovery is admitted during trial and what is not. Does the judge have the final say in the matter?

After all the digging we have done on this case, we are still split on innocence or guilt. If the judge favors McLeland and hogties the defense, then I think the jury will find it easy to convict. Another consideration is how convincing McL is in front of a jury. It's my opinion that a very good prosecutor can convict on almost no actual evidence.

 

[Salah11]

As I said before, I do believe they thought he was BG when they arrested him, due to circumstantial evidence.
It's possible, MOO, that some of the evidence turned out to be not what they were hoping for.
I think it's also possible that they, then, attempted to build a case around him.
It would be huge, after all this time, work and back patting, to have to admit "He's not our guy after all."

I'm not sure how it's decided what discovery is admitted during trial and what is not. Does the judge have the final say in the matter?

After all the digging we have done on this case, we are still split on innocence or guilt. If the judge favors McLeland and hogties the defense, then I think the jury will find it easy to convict. Another consideration is how convincing McL is in front of a jury. It's my opinion that a very good prosecutor can convict on almost no actual evidence.

There is absolutely no suggest of this though and he has been charged and is awaiting trial for the murder of Abby and Libby. LE clearly believe he is guilty.

 

[TL4S]

I don't think I've reacted any differently than many others on this thread who have a strong opinion. I try my best to do it respectfully, it's important to me how we treat one another even if we don't agree.

RA=BG=Killer(s). It will be interesting to see what else shakes out in the upcoming weeks.


JMO

I honestly admire those who can take a stand, one side or the other. Especially on this case, I find myself wavering all over the place. It's like that kid in school who knows they want to be a doctor in 2nd grade, then goes on to be a doctor, while I switched majors 6 times and still don't use the degree I landed on...

And you're right, the next few weeks might be interesting!

 

[FrostedGlass]

@Niner This is the CCS from 02/05/2024 to date. Click on the spoiler to view.

Spoiler

02/05/2024	Motion to Vacate Hearing Filed Motion to Vacate Hearing Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/05/2024
02/06/2024	Appearance Filed Limited Appearance Form on behalf of Andrew Baldwin For Party: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/06/2024
02/06/2024	Appearance Filed Limited Appearance Form on behalf of Bradley Rozzi For Party: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/06/2024
02/07/2024	Order Issued The Court, having defendant's Verified Motion to Disqualify (filed January 28, 2024), Defendant's Affidavit (filed January 28, 2024), and Certification of Richard Allen's Attorneys (filed January 28, 2024) under advisement and having considered the pleadings, now denies the Verified Motion to Disqualify without hearing as the Indiana Supreme Court unanimously denied Defendant's previous request on January 18, 2024. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 02/06/2024
02/07/2024	Motion to Dismiss Filed Motion to Dismiss for Destroying Exculpatory Evidence Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/07/2024
02/07/2024	Memorandum/Brief Filed Memorandum of Law in Support of Dismissal Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/07/2024
02/08/2024	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 2/7/2024 : James David Luttrull
02/08/2024	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 2/7/2024 : Andrew Joseph Baldwin;Bradley Anthony Rozzi;Nicholas Charles McLeland
02/08/2024	Appearance Filed Appearance For Party: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/07/2024
02/08/2024	Motion Filed for Summary Denial of State's Information Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 02/07/2024
02/08/2024	Opinion - Memorandum Received from the Supreme Court File Stamp: 02/08/2024
02/08/2024	Order Issued Court orders defendant to respond to the State's Motion to Compel Discovery on or before February 21, 2024, or provide the discovery requested. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 02/08/2024
02/08/2024	Order Issued The Court, having taken defendant's Motion to Transfer under advisement, and having reviewed the State's Response to Defense's Motion for Transfer, now denies the Motion to Transfer without hearing. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 02/08/2024
02/08/2024	Order Issued Defendant's Motion to Continue the hearing scheduled for February 12, 2024, reviewed and granted without hearing. Transport order will be cancelled. Hearing reset to March 18, 2024, at 9 a.m. in Allen Superior Court, Fort Wayne, Indiana. Court to notify and Court will reissue the transport order. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 02/08/2024
02/08/2024	Hearing Scheduling Activity Hearing originally scheduled on 02/12/2024 at 9:00 AM was rescheduled to 03/18/2024 at 9:00 AM. Reason: By Request.
03/18/2024	Hearing Session: 02/12/2024 9:00 AM, Rescheduled Session: 03/18/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Comment: To be held in the Allen Superior Court 5
10/15/2024	Jury Trial Session: 10/15/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ