Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #175

[zh0r4]

I sure wish that if the defense was making up outrageous lies about what witnesses stated on specific timestamps in their interview, that the State would have bothered to correct that or to request sanctions on the defense for such outrageous behavior. Yet, while they have made allegations about the defense lying in specific other instances, and so has JG, they have never ever alleged that the defense lied about what SC stated.
All the State bothered to tell us was a vague statement that the defense arguments about false or omitted evidence in the FM were "not true" and "not supported" in general. They don't bother to explain this in the least or even make a general statement such as "The Defense misquoted witness interviews."
View attachment 481812
And JG didn't bother to have this straightened out at a hearing.

Personally, I think that since when State and JG have expressed such concern with the behavior of the D, if anything in the FM was a clear lie or falsehood we would have been informed about this by now, as it would have been clearly relevant to the Contempt allegation and JG's reasons for dismissing them in October.

Thank you for pointing this out. The P would call out defense for lying about discovery because they have the discovery themselves. Attorneys can be disbarred for lying, it is a serious accusation at any attorney, whether defense or prosecution.

 

[zh0r4]

Wondering if you happen to have a date as to when the witnesses identified RA in a photo (lineup?) as the man they saw that day?

Surely this was BEFORE they arrested him?

Also, which witnesses identified him in a photo? EG: the three (4) girls who said they saw him? The lady who saw the muddy man?

I'd give more weight to the witness who saw muddy man because by then a crime had been committed, vs the three (4) girls who saw a man because no crime had happened as of when they saw him (that we know of).

I am unaware of any photo lineup. If anyone is please drop the link! TIA

 

[steeltowngirl]

As I said before, I do believe they thought he was BG when they arrested him, due to circumstantial evidence.
It's possible, MOO, that some of the evidence turned out to be not what they were hoping for.
I think it's also possible that they, then, attempted to build a case around him.
It would be huge, after all this time, work and back patting, to have to admit "He's not our guy after all."

I'm not sure how it's decided what discovery is admitted during trial and what is not. Does the judge have the final say in the matter?

After all the digging we have done on this case, we are still split on innocence or guilt. If the judge favors McLeland and hogties the defense, then I think the jury will find it easy to convict. Another consideration is how convincing McL is in front of a jury. It's my opinion that a very good prosecutor can convict on almost no actual evidence.

RA was arrested, and LE presented the PCA, before they knew who the judge would be. So I struggle with the idea that RA was ‘chosen’ as the easiest of their suspects to obtain a conviction - if their agenda was, as alleged by some, to wrap the case up and get it over with.

This is a high-profile case. The Supreme Court of Indiana already has eyes on it. The judge already is, and will continue to be, under scrutiny. RA has the lawyers he wanted. He will receive a fair trial.

jmo

 

[somequestions]

As I said before, I do believe they thought he was BG when they arrested him, due to circumstantial evidence.
It's possible, MOO, that some of the evidence turned out to be not what they were hoping for.
I think it's also possible that they, then, attempted to build a case around him.
It would be huge, after all this time, work and back patting, to have to admit "He's not our guy after all."

I'm not sure how it's decided what discovery is admitted during trial and what is not. Does the judge have the final say in the matter?

After all the digging we have done on this case, we are still split on innocence or guilt. If the judge favors McLeland and hogties the defense, then I think the jury will find it easy to convict. Another consideration is how convincing McL is in front of a jury. It's my opinion that a very good prosecutor can convict on almost no actual evidence.

I do not know what to think about this case anymore.

How the attorney, Williams Lebrato, can claim that Richard Allen's story has not changed, yet Richard Allen is now going to try to claim he was not at the trails between 1:30 - 3:30 pm, but was there between 12 - 1:30 pm? Therefore, according to the timeline Richard Allen left before Abigail Williams and Liberty German even arrived at the Monon High Bridge trail. If the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance camera has Richard Allen's black Ford Focus with blacked out wheels arriving and heading towards the old CPS building, I do not think a jury will like being lied to.

This is such a strange case because you don't think that a person who commits a crime like this is going to come forward so soon after the murders and volunteer vital information that will eventually result in their arrest and conviction.

I do think the defense has one good question that I am sure a jury is going to consider. How can the prosecution have so many witnesses that saw Richard Allen arrive, on foot or by seeing his car parked at the old CPS building, but no one saw him leave? Even the drive-by witness who said she saw a muddy and bloody man, said that occurred at 3:57pm. Yet if Richard Allen was telling the truth the first time to the conservation officer, why did he say he left at 3:30pm? Why not say the correct time, around 4 pm?

It is just sort of amazing that Richard Allen thought that if he went to talk to the conservation officer that no one would investigate him for 5 years or if he said he left at 3:30pm instead of 4 pm no one would think he was the person walking along 300 N after the crime. But the astonishing part is that LE never even knew who bridge guy was or what he looked like. It seemed like the only thing they knew is that there was a dark colored car parked at the old CPS building on the day of the crime and there was a man on a bridge who was on platform 1 who, according to the April 2019 press conference, was the murderer. And that was it.

 

[photographer4]

If he would have been arrested immediately we wouldn't have the D with an Odinism theory and the interview wouldn't likely be recorded over because there might not even have had an interview with those two (unsure when their interview was vs when RA gave his statement. So much of what has happened wouldn't even have happened.

I think being at the scene and being seen at specific times and admitting he himself saw the people that saw him is evidence he was there very close to the time of the murders. He also admits to the clothing (I wonder if he knew the girls recorded him?) The video wasn't released immediately.. maybe a few days later so I am curious when his statement was given that placed him there in the exact clothing that shows up in a man on video?)

I think we have to wonder what the scene was and how quickly LE realized it may be odinism. We also have to wonder how they decided to speak to BH in the first place or PW or EF. Were they known to police as Odins? Were they tipped in (if so by whom and why and when?). When did they learn about EF and when did they interview him?

I think some problems would still be with us. Again. RA being there and seeing the people who saw him (did they see each other? Or someone else?) doesn’t make him a killer for sure (probably does!). But the prosecution still has to prove it.

 

[mrjitty]

RA was arrested, and LE presented the PCA, before they knew who the judge would be. So I struggle with the idea that RA was ‘chosen’ as the easiest of their suspects to obtain a conviction - if their agenda was, as alleged by some, to wrap the case up and get it over with.

This is a high-profile case. The Supreme Court of Indiana already has eyes on it. The judge already is, and will continue to be, under scrutiny. RA has the lawyers he wanted. He will receive a fair trial.

jmo

For me, the thing is if you were going to frame someone, you'd do a better job of it than cycling a bullet though his gun and switching it in the evidence room. How would you even know this would leave any useful marks? Is the lab supposedly in on it? It reminds me of the Pistorius case where they supposedly framed him by moving a duvet and opening the curtains. Just far fetched.

SCOIN now threw a bucket of ice cold realism over the case. The defence are obviously not incompetent. They sailed too close to the wind, negligently so, and should be sanctioned as their own counsel admitted and SCOIN suggested. The Judge is not biased. She is not part of some wild conspiracy to get them off the case in league with the prosecutor. She was justifiably alarmed but chose the nuclear option was is not allowed. The prosecutor is obviously inexperienced. There is no evidence he is corrupt. etc

RA got what he wanted and that may come with big downsides for him because the Judge seems set in her views that there is little substance to <modsnip> pretrial machinations so far. A lot of the defence arguments amount to claiming a different judge would rule differently. But that is just tough luck. I've been through that on 2 big cases. It sucks but such is life.

 

[mrjitty]

I do not know what to think about this case anymore.

How the attorney, Williams Lebrato, can claim that Richard Allen's story has not changed, yet Richard Allen is now going to try to claim he was not at the trails between 1:30 - 3:30 pm, but was there between 12 - 1:30 pm? Therefore, according to the timeline Richard Allen left before Abigail Williams and Liberty German even arrived at the Monon High Bridge trail. If the Hoosier Harveststore surveillance camera has Richard Allen's black Ford Focus with blacked out wheels arriving and heading towards the old CPS building, I do not think a jury will like being lied to.

This is such a strange case because you don't think that a person who commits a crime like this is going to come forward so soon after the murders and volunteer vital information that will eventually result in their arrest and conviction.

I do think the defense has one good question that I am sure a jury is going to consider. How can the prosecution have so many witnesses that saw Richard Allen arrive, on foot or by seeing his car parked at the old CPS building, but no one saw him leave? Even the drive-by witness who said she saw a muddy and bloody man, said that occurred at 3:57pm. Yet if Richard Allen was telling the truth the first time to the conservation officer, why did he say he left at 3:30pm? Why not say the correct time, around 4 pm?

It is just sort of amazing that Richard Allen thought that if he went to talk to the conservation officer that no one would investigate him for 5 years or if he said he left at 3:30pm instead of 4 pm no one would think he was the person walking along 300 N after the crime. But the astonishing part is that LE never even knew who bridge guy was or what he looked like. It seemed like the only thing they knew is that there was a dark colored car parked at the old CPS building on the day of the crime and there was a man on a bridge who was on platform 1 who, according to the April 2019 press conference, was the murderer. And that was it.

Good points. I think this is why RA might need to testify. The discrepancy is a big issue and somehow he needs to convince the jury that Dulin made a mistake in what he noted down. IMO a contemporaneous note from the time of the murders is always going to carry more weight than what RA says years later.

Don't give police interviews without your lawyer kids!

 

[FrostedGlass]

For me, the thing is if you were going to frame someone, you'd do a better job of it than cycling a bullet though his gun and switching it in the evidence room. How would you even know this would leave any useful marks? Is the lab supposedly in on it? It reminds me of the Pistorius case where they supposedly framed him by moving a duvet and opening the curtains. Just far fetched.

SCOIN now threw a bucket of ice cold realism over the case. The defence are obviously not incompetent. They sailed too close to the wind, negligently so, and should be sanctioned as their own counsel admitted and SCOIN suggested. The Judge is not biased. She is not part of some wild conspiracy to get them off the case in league with the prosecutor. She was justifiably alarmed but chose the nuclear option was is not allowed. The prosecutor is obviously inexperienced. There is no evidence he is corrupt. etc

RA got what he wanted and that may come with big downsides for him because the Judge seems set in her views that there is little substance to <modsnip> pretrial machinations so far. A lot of the defence arguments amount to claiming a different judge would rule differently. But that is just tough luck. I've been through that on 2 big cases. It sucks but such is life.

Show me the pictures, show me the chain of command, show me the witness signature and this will all go away.
One piece of proof that crime scene bullet A is final discovery bullet Z.

Rather than using the word "frame", I think a better description is "building a case around their suspect."
We know it happens.

The analysis is subjective.

 

[mrjitty]

Show me the pictures, show me the chain of command, show me the witness signature and this will all go away.
One piece of proof that crime scene bullet A is final discovery bullet Z.

Rather than using the word "frame", I think a better description is "building a case around their suspect."
We know it happens.

The analysis is subjective.

I am sure the defence will bring that pretrial motion to exclude the evidence if the chain of custody is defective.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Show me the pictures, show me the chain of command, show me the witness signature and this will all go away.
One piece of proof that crime scene bullet A is final discovery bullet Z.

Rather than using the word "frame", I think a better description is "building a case around their suspect."
We know it happens.

The analysis is subjective.

What if LE didn't want to publish the information/pics on the type of bullet found on scene in case of fearing the killer would get rid of the gun or ammo? They don't have to disclose every single piece of evidence collected to the public. LE often holds back evidence that is specific to the killer or a weapon.

MOO

 

[TL4S]

Dbm... found the answer already

 

[girlhasnoname]

As I said before, I do believe they thought he was BG when they arrested him, due to circumstantial evidence.
It's possible, MOO, that some of the evidence turned out to be not what they were hoping for.
I think it's also possible that they, then, attempted to build a case around him.
It would be huge, after all this time, work and back patting, to have to admit "He's not our guy after all."

I'm not sure how it's decided what discovery is admitted during trial and what is not. Does the judge have the final say in the matter?

The Judge will rule on admissibility of the evidence if there is a conflict.

After all the digging we have done on this case, we are still split on innocence or guilt. If the judge favors McLeland and hogties the defense, then I think the jury will find it easy to convict. Another consideration is how convincing McL is in front of a jury. It's my opinion that a very good prosecutor can convict on almost no actual evidence.

I'm truly not sure why you are suggesting the Judge favors the State and might 'hogtie' the Defense. In what way could she hogtie the Defense?

The SCOIN ruled she is not biased based on their review of the case, and even stated they felt she was genuinely concerned about RA having competent counsel.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

What if LE didn't want to publish the information/pics on the type of bullet found on scene in case of fearing the killer would get rid of the gun or ammo? They don't have to disclose every single piece of evidence collected to the public. LE often holds back evidence that is specific to the killer or a weapon.

MOO

McL turned the 3 pictures of the bullet and 1 lab picture over to D.
Why weren't the rest of the pictures turned over at that time?
Surely they aren't like a misplaced file?
We know about the caliber of the cartridges and gun info.
We've seen the SW and the pages of returns.
Why weren't the chain of custody pages included?

 

[FrostedGlass]

The Judge will rule on admissibility of the evidence if there is a conflict.

I'm truly not sure why you are suggesting the Judge favors the State and might 'hogtie' the Defense. In what way could she hogtie the Defense?

The SCOIN ruled she is not biased based on their review of the case, and even stated they felt she was genuinely concerned about RA having competent counsel.

MOO

#1 answers #2.
#3: Of course they did.
That ruling came as no surprise whatsoever to more than a couple of folks.

 

[girlhasnoname]

McL turned the 3 pictures of the bullet and 1 lab picture over to D.
Why weren't the rest of the pictures turned over at that time?
Surely they aren't like a misplaced file?
We know about the caliber of the cartridges and gun info.
We've seen the SW and the pages of returns.
Why weren't the chain of custody pages included?

We only knew of the bullet and caliber after the SW. Is there chain of custody pages included for every single item recovered at the residence? I'd say some are more generic than others, 5 shoes, 6 jackets, 4 knives, etc.

Maybe the Defense hasn't 'reviewed' all of that part of Discovery yet or maybe the State hadn't provided them at the time of the FM. They had until Nov 1st to turn over all Discovery, the FM was written in Sept IIRC.

Speaking of turning over Discovery, the Defense hasn't turned over much if any to the State. Hmmmm. Wonder why that is?

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

#1 answers #2.
#3: Of course they did.
That ruling came as no surprise whatsoever to more than a couple of folks.

Then that would mean the SCOIN is involved in the conspiracy and coverup too? That's hard to fathom that LE, ISP, FBI and now the SCOIN are all out to frame an innocent man.

Let's hope this isn't true.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

We only knew of the bullet and caliber after the SW. Is there chain of custody pages included for every single item recovered at the residence? I'd say some are more generic than others, 5 shoes, 6 jackets, 4 knives, etc.

Maybe the Defense hasn't 'reviewed' all of that part of Discovery yet or maybe the State hadn't provided them at the time of the FM. They had until Nov 1st to turn over all Discovery, the FM was written in Sept IIRC.

Speaking of turning over Discovery, the Defense hasn't turned over much if any to the State. Hmmmm. Wonder why that is?

MOO

pg # 115 begins the return on the SW. Items aren't generic; good descriptions given.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

The old D were off the case for quite some time and the new D were trying to get caught up.
IMO it's reasonable that there is a delay in turning over discovery.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Then that would mean the SCOIN is involved in the conspiracy and coverup too? That's hard to fathom that LE, ISP, FBI and now the SCOIN are all out to frame an innocent man.

Let's hope this isn't true.

MOO

That does not mean any such thing.

From the appeals I've read and oral augments I've watched, I believe the Indiana Supreme Court does strongly support their trial court judges.

And they want trial court issues to be decided on that level.

 

[mrjitty]

I think there is something that the defence is intentionally conflating about 'bias' here. In the Morphew case which a number of us follow there was a recusal due to a potential conflict. The original judge was very even handed in my view, and was especially good at not getting bamboozled by high end defence counsel machinations.

The replacement judge was in my view a total homer for the defence, developed an irritation with the prosecution and essentially favoured the defence at every turn pre trial, basically cut and pasting their pleadings into rulings. Trouble is, as SCOIN points out, this kind of 'laymans bias' is allowed.

Per SCOIN that i quoted a few pages back, the Judge is allowed to make even hostile comment - especially where counsel are naughty. The Judge is also allowed to make gigantic errors and get slapped around by appellate courts - even multiple times. None of these things are going to get a Judge removed. Basically it would take something extremely bad.

IMO the defence is now trying to use every setback as evidence of actual bias. But SCOIN has said this won't fly.

I do get why this is really troubling, having experienced sucky judges twice on big cases.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think there is something that the defence is intentionally conflating about 'bias' here. In the Morphew case which a number of us follow there was a recusal due to a potential conflict. The original judge was very even handed in my view, and was especially good at not getting bamboozled by high end defence counsel machinations.

The replacement judge was in my view a total homer for the defence, developed an irritation with the prosecution and essentially favoured the defence at every turn pre trial, basically cut and pasting their pleadings into rulings. Trouble is, as SCOIN points out, this kind of 'laymans bias' is allowed.

Per SCOIN that i quoted a few pages back, the Judge is allowed to make even hostile comment - especially where counsel are naughty. The Judge is also allowed to make gigantic errors and get slapped around by appellate courts - even multiple times. None of these things are going to get a Judge removed. Basically it would take something extremely bad.

IMO the defence is now trying to use every setback as evidence of actual bias. But SCOIN has said this won't fly.

I do get why this is really troubling, having experienced sucky judges twice on big cases.

You said a lot right there.
That's just how it is.