Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #175

[steeltowngirl]

When does all this turn to slander? Defense has mention these men in the FM now this. How can they drag their names into it so easily, name them as murderers and not face being sued?

BH said he didn’t have the money to sue. JM said he was pursuing legal action “after the sensational allegations turned his life ’upside down’."

'Cultist' who Delphi defense blames for 'ritualistic' murders breaks silence

A MAN accused by Richard Allen’s attorneys of carrying out the Delphi murders as part of a ritualistic sacrifice said he’s exploring legal action after the sensational allegations turne…

www.the-sun.com

 

[gremlin444]

When does all this turn to slander? Defense has mention these men in the FM now this. How can they drag their names into it so easily, name them as murderers and not face being sued?

As per The Prosecutors Podcast both on this case and the Stephen Smith case, lawyers on either side are allowed to make accusations in court filings/court proceedings without the ability to be sued. Now, if they go out on the steps of the courthouse and give an interview to a reporter and say those things, that's when they risk it.

 

[photographer4]

This case has been an utter mess from start to now in all honesty. Horrendous what Abby and Libby's families are going through.

If RA isn’t guilty beyond a reasonable doubt then it is also horrible what he and his loved ones are going through.

 

[photographer4]

Her mom said in interviews (such as Scene of the Crime) that Abby had a secret Facebook page that she had made behind her mom's back and blocked her mom from seeing because she was not allowed to have one. She had a Kindle from which she could access Facebook.

I hope police were able to recover it and look for clues.

 

[photographer4]

What bothers me about the whole Odin thing is that it just won't go away. When the FM first came out, it was such a shock to read, and it wasn't long before a lot of people were calling it fanfiction. But it wasn't like AB and BR pulled it out of their backside. Since the FM, they have gathered a few more eggs in their Odinist basket. One girl was dating the son of an Odinist. At least two Odinists were spoken to by LE within the first few days of the investigation. It just so happened to be those interviews which were lost. Someone in LE prepared a SW including wording about religious sects and religious elements to the crime scene. A professor possibly claimed the CS had signs of Norse beliefs, on some level. Several LE officers investigated a group of men associated with Odinism, one of whom still admits to suspecting them. The prison RA was sent to ended up having guards wearing Odinist patches, then tattoos. It just won't go away. Why is that?

So it's easy to dismiss the D as storytellers, and disregard the whole Odinism angle because, well, frankly, it sounds crazy. But the D didn't lead LE to BH and PW's doorstep. They didn't tape over the interviews. They didn't write the SW. They didn't put the patches and ink on the guards. I don't like the Odinist stuff, but at this point, I'm starting to understand why the D is utilizing this theory. And what's upsetting is that the FM was out long before they even fully knew about the lost interviews and tattoo. Personally, I can't ignore that. JMO.

Sidenote: I don't really have any feelings one way or another about the Odinist group. But the handling of it by the State looks bad, and the D's strategy looks less and less ridiculous, because of the way it was handled. JMO.

I think they did note in FM that they hadn’t received some of the recordings of interviews etc but I can’t recall which those were. I think there was also a request for disclosure to have been completed by Nov 1 by B&R. So was the P just hoping their errors or omissions (perhaps through not fault but faulty electronics) just go unnoticed? Starts to feel like maybe RA IS being railroaded a bit here, doesn’t it? Even if he did it and is guilty - these issues just won’t go away. It can’t all be pure fiction, can it?

 

[photographer4]

If I’m correctly reading the section of the FM that @Ward Thisperer clipped, sounds like LH and PW’s son may have met Abby at Canal Park while playing basketball.

Ahhh that would make sense. I wondered if it may be a school sports event or something.

 

[Mandala]

Last time I was on Websleuths RA had just been arrested. Has he denied involvement? I need to catch up.

 

[snooptroop88]

From Journal & Courier: "'Due to a DVR program error discovered 9-20-2017 all recordings up to February 20th, 2017, were recorded over. There is no detectible audio found on this driver,' the motion to dismiss stated, citing a note from the prosecutor's team." Continues: "That erasing amounts to destroying the audio or video recordings made in interviews during the first week of the investigation after the two Delphi teenagers were killed on Feb. 13, 2017."

Defense is again emphasizing the specter of Odinism, which will dovetail with the idea of collusion. Collusion with such a heinous crime would be all but impossible, you'd be looking at close relatives, people who've known each other since childhood, a married couple, and even in those situations, collusion would be unusual. But with something like Odinism or a sex ring, collusion is already part and parcel of it with secrecy.

There was an appellate court decision many years back in another Midwest state where a man had been convicted of murdering his daughter. The decision was found not to be sustainable because the prosecution itself acknowledged the presence of other parties, other parties that theoretically would have had an equal opportunity to commit the murder. In fact, one of these other parties had already received a directed verdict.

So I would think this is putting down foundations for appeal. The prosecution has already acknowledged others may have been involved in the crime. What is the DNA situation? Prosecution has the bullet evidence, the clothes, witness. I see older articles noting DNA, then it largely disappears from the discussion. Is there any actual DNA? Because the haphazard appearance of BG would lead me to think there would have been DNA. BG looks like he's falling apart, but that's just my perception. And there's new discovery, right? Still completely on the fence.

 

[photographer4]

When does all this turn to slander? Defense has mention these men in the FM now this. How can they drag their names into it so easily, name them as murderers and not face being sued?

Post I made = deleted by me.

 

[O.Incandenza]

As per The Prosecutors Podcast both on this case and the Stephen Smith case, lawyers on either side are allowed to make accusations in court filings/court proceedings without the ability to be sued. Now, if they go out on the steps of the courthouse and give an interview to a reporter and say those things, that's when they risk it.

Yep. It's generally referred to as the litigation privilege. The rationale is that the adversarial legal system relies on lawyers being able to represent their clients fully w/out fear of being sued for their statements related to the case. Sometimes it gets abused. But certainly a defense lawyer pointing out alternate suspects who have been investigated by LE in a murder case is well within the bounds of what the privilege is supposed to protect. FWIW, even out-of-court statements will frequently fall within the privilege if they're related to the case.

 

[mrjitty]

I doubt it. She shouldn't have any more access to the opinion than Allen's lawyers. And if she somehow got that access anyway, she certainly shouldn't be basing her order on an opinion she's not supposed to have seen.

It's strange to me that she didn't just rule on it on the basis that she wasn't biased. Doing it this way seems to give them a much better appeal if SCOIN's opinion ends up denying recusal on procedural grounds.

I didn't mean she'd seen the judgement but wondered if there was any possibility that word would get back to her e.g. 'we've left you on so you can recuse"

And I agree that she simply should have repeated the legal argument set out in her SCOIN response and said all the defence laundry list are just adverse decisions which don't rise to bias. Why not just play the game?

I don't get it.

 

[mrjitty]

I don’t like how defense released the Odin connection in the FM, but as you say, it is difficult to ignore it. I don’t believe LE ignored it, but they didn’t have evidence to connect them to the murders and proceed with charges.

Doesn't mean they still can't if the investigation leads to admissible evidence. Also doesn’t rule out RA having involvement.

jmo

That's always the fallacy risk with this category of defence. The defence on the one hand wants to claim LE ignored this or covered up because reasons, while ignoring that the very fact we know about this is because LE did investigate it and didn't find anything.

For all the hot air about losing the chance to destroy BH on the stand - there is not one single piece of evidence that implicates him in the murders. Holder never was going to on trial here.

 

[mrjitty]

What bothers me about the whole Odin thing is that it just won't go away. When the FM first came out, it was such a shock to read, and it wasn't long before a lot of people were calling it fanfiction. But it wasn't like AB and BR pulled it out of their backside. Since the FM, they have gathered a few more eggs in their Odinist basket. One girl was dating the son of an Odinist. At least two Odinists were spoken to by LE within the first few days of the investigation. It just so happened to be those interviews which were lost. Someone in LE prepared a SW including wording about religious sects and religious elements to the crime scene. A professor possibly claimed the CS had signs of Norse beliefs, on some level. Several LE officers investigated a group of men associated with Odinism, one of whom still admits to suspecting them. The prison RA was sent to ended up having guards wearing Odinist patches, then tattoos. It just won't go away. Why is that?

So it's easy to dismiss the D as storytellers, and disregard the whole Odinism angle because, well, frankly, it sounds crazy. But the D didn't lead LE to BH and PW's doorstep. They didn't tape over the interviews. They didn't write the SW. They didn't put the patches and ink on the guards. I don't like the Odinist stuff, but at this point, I'm starting to understand why the D is utilizing this theory. And what's upsetting is that the FM was out long before they even fully knew about the lost interviews and tattoo. Personally, I can't ignore that. JMO.

Sidenote: I don't really have any feelings one way or another about the Odinist group. But the handling of it by the State looks bad, and the D's strategy looks less and less ridiculous, because of the way it was handled. JMO.

I agree it's a great story and I think the way the defence intend to use it at trial is by calling the investigators who worked on it, to try to show those guys think it hasn't been completely ruled out. That could be reasonable doubt, perhaps combined with some evidence of investigative sloppiness, rivalry between FBI and local law enforcement etc

But as far as Holder goes, there is not one single piece of evidence that implicates him in the murders AND he has an alibi.

I think there is a real risk of elevating a whole lot of interesting but basically unconnected points into a giant conspiracy involving Odinist prison guards and victims hung upside down to drain their blood. So once again, while this pleading is sensational, and likely an important piece of evidence at trial for the above strategy, i really don't get how it's grounds for dismissal or weakens the case against RA.

Especially I don't think the defence will want the trial to be RA vs BH because there is no evidence against Holder and a lot vs RA

 

[mrjitty]

If there is no chain of custody for the bullet I guess we can expect a motion to get it excluded from the trial? It seems quite likely the defence will have another shot at this.

 

[zh0r4]

Oh, I can see where that's going right now.

JG: Stuff happens. Denied!

JG: NO HEARING! Only P gets hearings!

 

[zh0r4]

OJ was acquitted, anything is possible.

OJ was rich and famous.

 

[girlhasnoname]

If there is no chain of custody for the bullet I guess we can expect a motion to get it excluded from the trial? It seems quite likely the defence will have another shot at this.

When the ballistic examiner did her testing she stated that she removed the casing from a collection bag, which was located inside a sealed evidence paper bag. There was/in chain of custody for one of their most important items I feel confident.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

That's what would happen on Perry Mason LOL!

All the Defense is allowed to do is show that there were other suspects and they were no followed up on.

But that is hard to instill doubt in the jury.

Some of this is elementary... "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's probably a duck"

I've been hoping one of the various podcasters would do an in-depth interview with an expert on the SODDI defences angle.

In a case some of us followed in detail (McStay), SODDI/TODDI was raised in 2 alternatives. But there was evidence to raise these as a serious issue at trial; namely

1. mixed DNA sample of "the real killers" in the grave site (SODDI) OR
2. crooked business partner with axe to grind who misappropriated funds (TODDI)

The point was, there was at least forensics on the one hand, or a direct connection to someone who was close to the victim and (weak) evidence of a motive. This later collapsed at trial when the alibi evidence was presented to the jury.

Here i feel like we don't have anything that implicates BH at all. Rather just some propensity reasoning that because an odinist did it, and he is an odinist therefore he is a real possibility as the killer.

My question is, would this be allowed at trial and how much rope would be given? Or is the idea more to call the investigators and have them say they still think an Odinist did it, and all the BH stuff is more background?

The risk of TODDI as I understand it, is it can become one or the other in the mind of a jury, and there is much more evidence against RA than BH (none IMO). In this view TODDI is better - there's just a general odinist / occult angle here and LE didn't find the right killers yet.

I don't even know where to begin with the law on this topic. Or is it just general principles? The judge will allow evidence so long as it is relevant enough. What I doubt is that any judge is going to allow the kind of extended tour of facebook posts that was in the Franks.

 

[FrostedGlass]

When the ballistic examiner did her testing she stated that she removed the casing from a collection bag, which was located inside a sealed evidence paper bag. There was/in chain of custody for one of their most important items I feel confident.

JMO

Link please? I don't remember seeing that statement and would like to add it to my notes.

 

[zh0r4]

I can understand LE talking to BH due to the connection between his son and Abby. Why PW though?

PW was friends with BH. They used to hang out on Sundays for their Odinist meetings, according to PW himself.