Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #185

[TTF14]

And then I guess just destroy or bury the conflicting evidence and hope the accused is given a public defender who has such a high workload they’re unable to sift through all the noise to find the original investigation and pray the original investigator doesn’t see the arrest on the news and contact a lawyer to draft a letter to the state to remind them of the original investigation that points to complete different people?

(ETA: Hypothetically speaking of course)

Also must say that any lost/destroyed evidence wasn't important/exculpatory anyway.

And yes, hypothetically of course. And all my opinion.

 

[TTF14]

Has anyone seen today's filing in a MSM doc/article anywhere?

 

[AugustWest]

Has anyone seen today's filing in a MSM doc/article anywhere?


View attachment 509270

@TTF14 Here you go!

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[TTF14]

@TTF14 Here you go!

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

Thank you!

 

[FrostedGlass]

MOO Its his lawyers province to get him more than stabilizing.
They aren't shy of motions, why no eval?

In this response dated 4/14/23, the P stated the Defendant is being evaluated at 10:00 A.M. on April 14'", 2023 to assess his mental health needs. This doc is in Gull's doc dump but I don't have the page number for it.

04/14/2023

Response Filed State of Indiana files Response to Defense's Emergency Motion to Modify Safekeeping Order. Filed By: State of Indiana

Then, prior to July 4, this news source linked below made this claim. I have yet to find the document for the source of their statement.

"Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary medication” to treat Allen’s symptoms, but two psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary, and they also felt it wasn’t necessary to move him to another facility with a psychiatric unit."

Shocking Details Of Delphi Murders And Suspect’s Health Revealed In Documents

The newly unsealed documents provide insight into what investigators found at the crime scene as well as their interactions with Richard Allen before and after his arrest.

www.huffpost.com

 

[grannygates]

My takeaways and please correct me if I’m misunderstanding:

Because LH phone was extracted prior to the girls being found, during the “missing/abducted” investigation, LE would not do an additional extraction 3 days later try to get new information now that they moved to a double homicide investigation and everyone would be talking about the murders on their phones. MOO

IMO Two LE officers randomly and without reason arbitrarily decided to interview BH in fall 2017, unprompted by any investigation, to discuss specifically odinism.

If evidence is destroyed before you see it you can’t prove that it was important to you but if it’s destroyed and you find it elsewhere you can’t say we withheld it because now you have it, just not from us. I don’t understand how that isn’t an impossible thing to prove then.

All MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

The reason this does not make sense is why would the prosecution not put this info in the PCA? Why let the case turn into a possible violation of a person's civil rights? Why let people think Richard Allen could possibly be an innocent man? It is turns out they have DNA they can use to prove his guilt, then he will be found guilty at trial. But like so many aspects of this case, do they actually have DNA evidence against Richard Allen or not?

The PCA is weak in my opinion. Did LE ask Richard Allen to provide his DNA? Did LE secretly take something from Richard Allen's trash to test and match the DNA? Did Holeman press Richard Allen about the DNA evidence they have against him? Did the defense team hire a scientific expert to be able to have their lab process the DNA test? Did the prosecution provide the defense with the lab results regarding Richard Allen's DNA? Did they ever find the murder weapon in Deer Creek and tie it to Richard Allen? Did Richard Allen really confess with details only the killer would know? No one seems to know.

Did the main witness(BB), who saw who she thought was Richard Allen on Platform 1, have dogs with her while walking to the Monon High Bridge that day or not? Were they friendly dogs that two teenage girls might try to pet?

I do not know what to think about this case or Richard Allen's guilt or innocence because there is not enough info out there for the public to come to a reasonable opinion.

They don't have to disclose everything in the PCA.

Also, there is a gag order that at least one side is being respectful about.


I don't know if it was BB who was walking her dogs or if it was someone else.

 

[snooptroop88]

My takeaways and please correct me if I’m misunderstanding:

Because LH phone was extracted prior to the girls being found, during the “missing/abducted” investigation, LE would not do an additional extraction 3 days later try to get new information now that they moved to a double homicide investigation and everyone would be talking about the murders on their phones. MOO

IMO Two LE officers randomly and without reason arbitrarily decided to interview BH in fall 2017, unprompted by any investigation, to discuss specifically odinism.

If evidence is destroyed before you see it you can’t prove that it was important to you but if it’s destroyed and you find it elsewhere you can’t say we withheld it because now you have it, just not from us. I don’t understand how that isn’t an impossible thing to prove then.

All MOO

Understood. The missing footage is a very bad situation, nobody can deny that. But this D has a tendency to label anything and everything as "exculpatory," jmo. Just because it's lost doesn't make it "exculpatory." If the CO interview were still lost/unavailable-- and RA had been charged through other means-- knowing this D, I'm sure that would be "exculpatory," too, but it's no longer lost and in fact is probably going to be RA's undoing. The fact that the CO report was in some way lost/mishandled actually worked to RA's advantage. Anything genuinely lost is lost, jmo. P and LE should get the benefit of the doubt on this one as it's their job and role to investigate crimes and charge people of crimes, not the D's. If P & LE thought the missing footage had actual value, other people would have been named by P and LE in these murders. The D seems anxious to take over the roles currently held by P and LE, they launch quasi-investigations of their own. Based on D's performance, maybe best to just let P & LE continue doing their own jobs and D can do theirs, which is to show a jury why RA's not BG. Would you want someone who wrote the Franks series to be put in uniform? Would you want them in charge of an actual murder investigation, dispatching officers to a scene? Would you trust them bringing charges against the individuals they specifically name in their memo? I wouldn't, and a large part of the reason is that those people in the FM ARE named, and there are no charges against them. That's not how it's supposed to work. As defense lawyers, they should know that better than anyone else.

 

[steeltowngirl]

dbm

 

[Spartygirl]

dbm

You were tempted, weren't you , my friend LMAO

I see the response from State was released today

Catching up now.

#justiceforLibbyandAbby

 

[sunshineray]

In this response dated 4/14/23, the P stated the Defendant is being evaluated at 10:00 A.M. on April 14'", 2023 to assess his mental health needs. This doc is in Gull's doc dump but I don't have the page number for it.

04/14/2023

Response Filed State of Indiana files Response to Defense's Emergency Motion to Modify Safekeeping Order. Filed By: State of Indiana

Then, prior to July 4, this news source linked below made this claim. I have yet to find the document for the source of their statement.

"Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary medication” to treat Allen’s symptoms, but two psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary, and they also felt it wasn’t necessary to move him to another facility with a psychiatric unit."

Shocking Details Of Delphi Murders And Suspect’s Health Revealed In Documents

The newly unsealed documents provide insight into what investigators found at the crime scene as well as their interactions with Richard Allen before and after his arrest.

www.huffpost.com

Sounds to me like his doctors said he was mentally stable. So his lawyers not asking for any further evaluation would mean they thought RA was stable also. I wonder if they still do?

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Since that would surely be HIPA protected, I'd say only a court order would get that info and it would be sealed. MO

I know it "should be" HIPPA protected but they have a way around it as do most things. MOO

 

[sunshineray]

I know it "should be" HIPPA protected but they have a way around it as do most things. MOO

Yes one being if an inmate confesses to killing, to a mental health doctor giving details of the crime, the doctor can testify to that.

 

[girlhasnoname]

In this response dated 4/14/23, the P stated the Defendant is being evaluated at 10:00 A.M. on April 14'", 2023 to assess his mental health needs. This doc is in Gull's doc dump but I don't have the page number for it.

04/14/2023

Response Filed State of Indiana files Response to Defense's Emergency Motion to Modify Safekeeping Order. Filed By: State of Indiana

Then, prior to July 4, this news source linked below made this claim. I have yet to find the document for the source of their statement.

"Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary medication” to treat Allen’s symptoms, but two psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary, and they also felt it wasn’t necessary to move him to another facility with a psychiatric unit."

Shocking Details Of Delphi Murders And Suspect’s Health Revealed In Documents

The newly unsealed documents provide insight into what investigators found at the crime scene as well as their interactions with Richard Allen before and after his arrest.

www.huffpost.com

Good to know that the State wasn't secretly forcibly drugging RA against his will like has been suggested many times.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Understood. The missing footage is a very bad situation, nobody can deny that. But this D has a tendency to label anything and everything as "exculpatory," jmo. Just because it's lost doesn't make it "exculpatory." If the CO interview were still lost/unavailable-- and RA had been charged through other means-- knowing this D, I'm sure that would be "exculpatory," too, but it's no longer lost and in fact is probably going to be RA's undoing. The fact that the CO report was in some way lost/mishandled actually worked to RA's advantage. Anything genuinely lost is lost, jmo. P and LE should get the benefit of the doubt on this one as it's their job and role to investigate crimes and charge people of crimes, not the D's. If P & LE thought the missing footage had actual value, other people would have been named by P and LE in these murders. The D seems anxious to take over the roles currently held by P and LE, they launch quasi-investigations of their own. Based on D's performance, maybe best to just let P & LE continue doing their own jobs and D can do theirs, which is to show a jury why RA's not BG. Would you want someone who wrote the Franks series to be put in uniform? Would you want them in charge of an actual murder investigation, dispatching officers to a scene? Would you trust them bringing charges against the individuals they specifically name in their memo? I wouldn't, and a large part of the reason is that those people in the FM ARE named, and there are no charges against them. That's not how it's supposed to work. As defense lawyers, they should know that better than anyone else.

They did know better IMO and decided to do it as one of their "Ooopsie, sorry I didn't know we were supposed to do it that way". This is just one example of the many times the D has done this at the expense of non POIs and innocent victims. Shady behavior and not beneficial to their client in the long term.

I believe the public in general has seen through them and no longer thinks much of their defense or them as a whole. I'd love to see a poll on that. <You'd have to discount the raving lunatic SM followers of theirs of course to get an accurate picture.> Rozzi and Baldwin have jumped the shark.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Good to know that the State wasn't secretly forcibly drugging RA against his will like has been suggested many times.

JMO

Yes, it is but notice the article said: "...psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary,..." Maybe I'll go searching through all the P's docs to find the source for the HuffPo article. I'd like to know what Nick's exact words were.

With that said, it doesn't mean the medical staff never gave him any drugs that could have bad side effects. There's nothing nefarious about that.

RA was at Westville for a number of months under a suicide watch.
I'm hard pressed to imagine he just had therapy sessions.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I believe the public in general has seen through them and no longer thinks much of their defense or them as a whole. I'd love to see a poll on that. <You'd have to discount the raving lunatic SM followers of theirs of course to get an accurate picture.> Rozzi and Baldwin have jumped the shark.

JMO

RSBM
Why would the "raving lunatic SM followers" of the D have to be discounted?
Some of those have strong legal backgrounds.

 

[TTF14]

They did know better IMO and decided to do it as one of their "Ooopsie, sorry I didn't know we were supposed to do it that way". This is just one example of the many times the D has done this at the expense of non POIs and innocent victims. Shady behavior and not beneficial to their client in the long term.

I believe the public in general has seen through them and no longer thinks much of their defense or them as a whole. I'd love to see a poll on that. <You'd have to discount the raving lunatic SM followers of theirs of course to get an accurate picture.> Rozzi and Baldwin have jumped the shark.

JMO

RSBM
Why would the "raving lunatic SM followers" of the D have to be discounted?
Some of those have strong legal backgrounds.

I think the raving lunatics who are screaming RA is guilty when there hasn’t even been a trial yet would balance them out.

IMO MOO JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think the raving lunatics who are screaming RA is guilty when there hasn’t even been a trial yet would balance them out.

IMO MOO JMO

It's sad how divisive this case has become; way back when this case first opened, there was one Yter I really liked and appreciated his work. Now, he has gone completely off the rails.

Considering... I think we do a good job here of keeping things civil.

 

[mrjitty]

Early eyewitness accounts can shift. As the witness gains clarity. For example, being absolutely certain one saw a specific make and model at an exact time. Later may realize that was all true, just off by a day. Or right car, right day, wrong parking lot.

No one expects to become an eyewitness, in particular to a non-event by which I mean something not directly involved in.

I suspect witness testimony will be important at trial only insofar as it sharpens the timeline.

JMO

This is why I remain fascinated by the Pistorius case, which I think is the gold standard case of witnesses and timelines in terms of the complexity and inconsistencies.

Applying it to this case, I think the key thing is witnesses will typically be wrong about some detail, and it is more the broad strokes that matter.

For example, putting things together, I think it is pretty clear that the 3 juvenile girls and woman walker, all saw the bridge guy who is on the video, even though they differ on some details. Indeed i would expect them to differ on details - just because humans are not perfect.

So to me, woman walker is most important to establish there was "a bridge guy" already there on the bridge just before the girls got there, and it's much less important what she remembered he looked like.

IMO/MOO