Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #185

[girlhasnoname]

I'm surprised they gave him a pen while on suicide watch.
I was equally surprised to see him sporting shoes with shoe laces at one of his hearings.

Maybe RA requested to be able to write a note to the Warden, a pencil and a piece of paper might have been provided while during rec time not just passed through to his cell. Thank goodness there's 24/7 surveillance of RA.

Not surprising to see that RA had shoes with laces at his hearing, he needs shoes and he's under heavy watch. He wouldn't be able to physically take the laces out of them to harm himself being restrained the way he is.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Well, the legal docs were delivered by what, a 20-some year old rookie and NOT his attorney(s)
who could have delivered them and gone over them with him.
But NOPE-- they send a rookie instead who probably just dropped the documents off to him and left, regardless if other inmates or CO's were present because he didn't know any better-- again-- the Defense team fault.

IF RA is indeed not being treated legally per protocol then it is RA's own DEFENSE team that is doing this.
NOT LE, not JG, not the FBI-- but his own attorneys

Agreed, RA's defense team couldn't be bothered to visit and participate with RA face to face because of that awful, inconvenient drive IMO. In a high profile case, with all the discovery, Rozzi and Baldwin should have been meeting with him at least weekly, especially after the State's first major Discovery Dump.

RA called and confessed to his wife on April 3rd and R&B filed a Motion to Transfer on April 4th. I guess they weren't concerned about his IDOC conditions before his confessions started rolling out.

I still believe R&B were physically present at Westville less than 5 times during RA's entire time there. They can play the blame game all they want, but they failed their client RA. I say that even believing in RA's guilt.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Well, the legal docs were delivered by what, a 20-some year old rookie and NOT his attorney(s)
who could have delivered them and gone over them with him.
But NOPE-- they send a rookie instead who probably just dropped the documents off to him and left, regardless if other inmates or CO's were present because he didn't know any better-- again-- the Defense team fault.

IF RA is indeed not being treated legally per protocol then it is RA's own DEFENSE team that is doing this.
NOT LE, not JG, not the FBI-- but his own attorneys

I didn't post the docs you refer to because there was any wrongdoing on the part of the D, P or Westville.
I did post to show a timeframe for the events.

I'm not sure how you're last sentence relates to what I posted and highlighted.

 

[sunshineray]

Maybe the Ds aren't 100% sure about the information they've been given?
Better to be a bit vague than definitive on something that they may not know to be the absolute truth.

If that's the case and it's partnered with a client who's repeatedly confessed over 30 times including to his wife and mother, put himself at the scene of the crime, during the crime and wearing the same clothes as the man on video who abducted the girls and marched them "down the hill" to their deaths, why continue on with a not guilty plea? Why alternatively ask for speedy trial and hearings to the point of jury selection happening in days to then withdraw and continue? It looks like RA's defense has either avoided talking to their client directly about all the above or they've been told all that by their client and are ignoring his wishes? The defense's words don't sync up with their actions or with their failure to act. Yes they have a duty to represent but as officers of the court they also have a duty to act with candor to the court, no? AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Agreed, RA's defense team couldn't be bothered to visit and participate with RA face to face because of that awful, inconvenient drive IMO. In a high profile case, with all the discovery, Rozzi and Baldwin should have been meeting with him at least weekly, especially after the State's first major Discovery Dump.

RA called and confessed to his wife on April 3rd and R&B filed a Motion to Transfer on April 4th. I guess they weren't concerned about his IDOC conditions before his confessions started rolling out.

I still believe R&B were physically present at Westville less than 5 times during RA's entire time there. They can play the blame game all they want, but they failed their client RA. I say that even believing in RA's guilt.

JMO

I wonder if the confession letters to the warden came before the April 3rd call to his wife and mother?

 

[Tealgrove]

I actually wonder how involved RA is in his own defence.

Does he call his lawyers and ask to see them or talk about the strategy?

From what we’re able to piece together, with various confessions flying around, it seems that RA and his Team are on very different paths.

I just get the feeling that RA is on the outside looking in. It greatly concerns me that it appears his actual Lawyers don’t engage with him much, which is curious since they said they had a bond with RA when JG tried to remove them.

I don’t think I’ve ever followed a case with so many twists and turns.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

If that's the case and it's partnered with a client who's repeatedly confessed over 30 times including to his wife and mother, put himself at the scene of the crime, during the crime and wearing the same clothes as the man on video who abducted the girls and marched them "down the hill" to their deaths, why continue on with a not guilty plea? Why alternatively ask for speedy trial and hearings to the point of jury selection happening in days to then withdraw and continue? It looks like RA's defense has either avoided talking to their client directly about all the above or they've been told all that by their client and are ignoring his wishes? The defense's words don't sync up with their actions or with their failure to act. Yes they have a duty to represent but as officers of the court they also have a duty to act with candor to the court, no? AJMO

IMO
We have no indication that he continued to confess beyond the timeframe of his mental break.
I am not convinced that any his confessions contained "only information that the killer would know."
I've seen no evidence that he has asked the D to change his plea to 'guilty'.
The D would be in big trouble if he did want to plead guilty and the ignored his wishes.

 

[sunshineray]

IMO
We have no indication that he continued to confess beyond the timeframe of his mental break.
I am not convinced that any his confessions contained "only information that the killer would know."
I've seen no evidence that he has asked the D to change his plea to 'guilty'.
The D would be in big trouble if he did want to plead guilty and the ignored his wishes.

I wonder if the young man sent to deliver things to RA at the prison, the one mentioned in D motion, is also a lawyer or just an intern type? Are non-lawyers working as intermediaries also bound by the attorney-client priviledge? If not, maybe the P should depose him? It may be that RA's attorneys aren't in the position that they can't confer with their client (the purported physical distance), they're just choosing not to?
Just some thoughts

 

[girlhasnoname]

I wonder if the young man sent to deliver things to RA at the prison, the one mentioned in D motion, is also a lawyer or just an intern type? Are non-lawyers working as intermediaries also bound by the attorney-client priviledge? If not, maybe the P should depose him? It may be that RA's attorneys aren't in the position that they can't confer with their client (the purported physical distance), they're just choosing not to?
Just some thoughts

I bet that would be eye opening for sure, but I don't think the State could call a member of the Defense team as a witness. I think he's been referred to as an intern IIRC, but please, anyone, correct me if I'm mistaken.

MOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

IMO
We have no indication that he continued to confess beyond the timeframe of his mental break.
I am not convinced that any his confessions contained "only information that the killer would know."
I've seen no evidence that he has asked the D to change his plea to 'guilty'.
The D would be in big trouble if he did want to plead guilty and the ignored his wishes.

There is so much we all are unclear about.
Maybe everybody, the prosecution and defense, could all get together in one place and show everybody else what they have. People that know about this stuff can swear to tell it straight and both sides can ask questions to make sure it’s clear. Then we can pick maybe a dozen or so folks to represent the public at large and let them decide what the true deal is.
Hmmmmmm……didn’t we have something like that planned last month but the Judge had to do some busy work first. Hmmmmmm.

 

[FrostedGlass]

There is so much we all are unclear about.
Maybe everybody, the prosecution and defense, could all get together in one place and show everybody else what they have. People that know about this stuff can swear to tell it straight and both sides can ask questions to make sure it’s clear. Then we can pick maybe a dozen or so folks to represent the public at large and let them decide what the true deal is.
Hmmmmmm……didn’t we have something like that planned last month but the Judge had to do some busy work first. Hmmmmmm.

I think it's curious how so many of us have followed this case for so long but are now so far apart.

From my point of view
the judge gave them another Hobson's choice-type of scenario
1. go to trial with no clue of how much time you will have to try your case
OR
2. take the new trial date, which cancels out your speedy trail.

As a result, they now have more time to do whatever.

 

[somequestions]

The timeline of this case has something I cannot explain.

If the witness who arrived at a little after 1:46pm(BB) was on a fitness walk, the I think it can be sort of safe to assume she walked to the Monon High Bridge, saw Richard Allen on platform 1 maybe staring at him for less than 30 seconds, and turned around and walked back towards the Mears entrance. She might not have left right away since the Hoosier Harvest Store camera video does not show her vehicle leaving until around 2:14pm.

It takes about 5 minutes to walk to the Monon High Bridge from the Mears entrance according to some video I have seen. The witness says she saw who she thought was Abby and Libby about halfway as she was walking back toward her vehicle and the girls were walking towards the Monon High Bridge. If she leaves here vehicle and walks to the Monon High Bridge, she would get there to observe Richard Allen at about 1:52pm. This means on the way back she would have passed the girls at around 1:54-1:55pm and the girls would already have been halfway to the bridge.

If the snapchat photo of the entire length of the bridge was not taken until about 2:05pm, why did it take Abby and Libby nearly 10 minutes to walk the rest of the way when it should only have taken about 2 minutes and 30 seconds?

I know the snapchat photo might have only been posted at 2:05pm and taken earlier, but it appears to me from the next one at 2:07pm and the girl's location on the bridge at the time of that photo that when they take a photo, they post it relatively quick after that. It does not appear that Libby waits to post, but I do not know that for sure.

If Richard Allen gave details in his confession that no one else would know, then none of this will matter. But if not, the prosecution's entire case could rest on this eyewitness testimony when it comes to placing Richard Allen on the Monon High Bridge at the time the girls were abducted and murdered. Without knowing the confessions, I do not think this is a very solid case to prove.

 

[steeltowngirl]

There is so much we all are unclear about.
Maybe everybody, the prosecution and defense, could all get together in one place and show everybody else what they have. People that know about this stuff can swear to tell it straight and both sides can ask questions to make sure it’s clear. Then we can pick maybe a dozen or so folks to represent the public at large and let them decide what the true deal is.
Hmmmmmm……didn’t we have something like that planned last month but the Judge had to do some busy work first. Hmmmmmm.

Sounds similar to a grand jury.

 

[AugustWest]

I wonder if the young man sent to deliver things to RA at the prison, the one mentioned in D motion, is also a lawyer or just an intern type? Are non-lawyers working as intermediaries also bound by the attorney-client priviledge? If not, maybe the P should depose him? It may be that RA's attorneys aren't in the position that they can't confer with their client (the purported physical distance), they're just choosing not to?
Just some thoughts

Yes, non-lawyers working with lawyers are bound by the privilege.

See: Attorney Client Privilege.

"The privilege covers written and oral communications and protects both individual and institutional clients. The privilege extends from the attorney to include legal office staff that facilitates communications to and from the attorney."

See also Model Rules of Professional Conduct, Rules 1.6, 5.1, and 5.3, particularly the comments to each rule:

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/model_rules_of_professional_conduct_table_of_contents/

 

[steeltowngirl]

If the snapchat photo of the entire length of the bridge was not taken until about 2:05pm, why did it take Abby and Libby nearly 10 minutes to walk the rest of the way when it should only have taken about 2 minutes and 30 seconds?

How do you know how long it would take two teens to walk across the bridge? Or walk anywhere? Maybe they stopped, goofed around, had fun, or maybe they were just walking very slowly and carefully on a dangerous bridge.

 

[girlhasnoname]

How do you know how long it would take two teens to walk across the bridge? Or walk anywhere? Maybe they stopped, goofed around, had fun, or maybe they were just walking very slowly and carefully on a dangerous bridge.

Absolutely agree and wasn't it said to be the first time Abby crossed? She may have been particularly slow in moving across MHB. I personally wouldn't cross it period, I'm terrified of heights and the shape it was in is crazy.

Maybe they crossed a bit at a time and stopped at the platforms taking pics, chatting etc.?

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

The timeline of this case has something I cannot explain.

If the witness who arrived at a little after 1:46pm(BB) was on a fitness walk, the I think it can be sort of safe to assume she walked to the Monon High Bridge, saw Richard Allen on platform 1 maybe staring at him for less than 30 seconds, and turned around and walked back towards the Mears entrance. She might not have left right away since the Hoosier Harvest Store camera video does not show her vehicle leaving until around 2:14pm.

It takes about 5 minutes to walk to the Monon High Bridge from the Mears entrance according to some video I have seen. The witness says she saw who she thought was Abby and Libby about halfway as she was walking back toward her vehicle and the girls were walking towards the Monon High Bridge. If she leaves here vehicle and walks to the Monon High Bridge, she would get there to observe Richard Allen at about 1:52pm. This means on the way back she would have passed the girls at around 1:54-1:55pm and the girls would already have been halfway to the bridge.

If the snapchat photo of the entire length of the bridge was not taken until about 2:05pm, why did it take Abby and Libby nearly 10 minutes to walk the rest of the way when it should only have taken about 2 minutes and 30 seconds?

I know the snapchat photo might have only been posted at 2:05pm and taken earlier, but it appears to me from the next one at 2:07pm and the girl's location on the bridge at the time of that photo that when they take a photo, they post it relatively quick after that. It does not appear that Libby waits to post, but I do not know that for sure.

If Richard Allen gave details in his confession that no one else would know, then none of this will matter. But if not, the prosecution's entire case could rest on this eyewitness testimony when it comes to placing Richard Allen on the Monon High Bridge at the time the girls were abducted and murdered. Without knowing the confessions, I do not think this is a very solid case to prove.

We don't know the answers to some these questions in exact minutia. Libby, having the wherewithal to record RA=BG and their abduction DTH, we do know. She is such a hero and the fact THAT video will be a part of what helps to bury RA IMO is divine intervention to me.

RA places himself on the MHB during that time, added to the many other things I've stated ad nauseam since RA's arrest, helps me see the case as very solid.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

The timeline of this case has something I cannot explain.

If the witness who arrived at a little after 1:46pm(BB) was on a fitness walk, the I think it can be sort of safe to assume she walked to the Monon High Bridge, saw Richard Allen on platform 1 maybe staring at him for less than 30 seconds, and turned around and walked back towards the Mears entrance. She might not have left right away since the Hoosier Harvest Store camera video does not show her vehicle leaving until around 2:14pm.

It takes about 5 minutes to walk to the Monon High Bridge from the Mears entrance according to some video I have seen. The witness says she saw who she thought was Abby and Libby about halfway as she was walking back toward her vehicle and the girls were walking towards the Monon High Bridge. If she leaves here vehicle and walks to the Monon High Bridge, she would get there to observe Richard Allen at about 1:52pm. This means on the way back she would have passed the girls at around 1:54-1:55pm and the girls would already have been halfway to the bridge.

If the snapchat photo of the entire length of the bridge was not taken until about 2:05pm, why did it take Abby and Libby nearly 10 minutes to walk the rest of the way when it should only have taken about 2 minutes and 30 seconds?

I know the snapchat photo might have only been posted at 2:05pm and taken earlier, but it appears to me from the next one at 2:07pm and the girl's location on the bridge at the time of that photo that when they take a photo, they post it relatively quick after that. It does not appear that Libby waits to post, but I do not know that for sure.

If Richard Allen gave details in his confession that no one else would know, then none of this will matter. But if not, the prosecution's entire case could rest on this eyewitness testimony when it comes to placing Richard Allen on the Monon High Bridge at the time the girls were abducted and murdered. Without knowing the confessions, I do not think this is a very solid case to prove.

I gave up working on the timeline because I can't make it work on either end of the trail.

The P used the KG departure time as also being the arrival time. If the girls did arrive earlier than that, the whole timeline on that end of the bridge does not work for me.

There's a questionable time gap, IMO, between the timings of the group of 4 and when BB sighted them on the bridge.

 

[sunshineray]

I think it's curious how so many of us have followed this case for so long but are now so far apart.

From my point of view
the judge gave them another Hobson's choice-type of scenario
1. go to trial with no clue of how much time you will have to try your case
OR
2. take the new trial date, which cancels out your speedy trail.

As a result, they now have more time to do whatever.

When do things stop being called the judge's fault and are acknowledged as the culmination of bad representation? Just the other side because they WERE the ones saying they were ready...up until the 11th hour. JMO

 

[AugustWest]

When do things stop being called the judge's fault and are acknowledged as the culmination of bad representation? Just the other side because they WERE the ones saying they were ready...up until the 11th hour. JMO

Being "ready to go" and being hamstrung by time limitations imposed by the judge are two differing issues.