Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #185

[sunshineray]

Oh who knows. There’s so many options: in-person; phone call, left message with admin, email, mail, courier. In any event, there’s no way to go back in time and fix it. Mistakes happen, we’re all humans. Best they can do is try to fix the issue now for the sake of the case.

Where I don’t love the response from the judge is the response about it not being her responsibility to ensure defense gets equal time to present their case and enforcing definitive end dates of trials.

IMO judge won’t cap Prosecutions time, so what if P takes up 14 days and then defense gets 1? That’s not a fair trial. I can see why a lawyer wouldn’t want this judge. There’s no guarantee you can even present your case and no flexibility if you need more time. What if a witness goes longer than expected, you just don’t get to present all your witnesses? Is this how she does all her cases? isnt that concerning? How many defense cases are cut off prematurely because of “end dates”.

Have I completely misread this ? None of that seems equal or fair to me and I can see where someone would think this way heavily favours the prosecution, who is given unlimited uncapped time where defense is allowed whatever is left over.

It's the P's burden to prove guilt.

 

[grannygates]

It's the P's burden to prove guilt.

The jury hears all of the evidence about why they believe the person is guilty and the defense doesn’t get any opportunity to refute or disprove any of it. That’s completely unfair.

 

[katydid23]

Being "ready to go" and being hamstrung by time limitations imposed by the judge are two differing issues.

The defense agreed to that time span. The judge didn't impose it, it was proposed and both sides AGREED. I think the Defense team was being short sighted, IMO.

 

[katydid23]

The jury hears all of the evidence about why they believe the person is guilty and the defense doesn’t get any opportunity to refute or disprove any of it. That’s completely unfair.

Who says they don't get any opportunity to refute or disprove?

They have the explicit opportunity to cross examine every prosecution witness and are allowed to recall them again during their case, if necessary. And they are allowed to submit their own experts and their own documents and exhibits for evidence. What more does one expect?

 

[grannygates]

Who says they don't get any opportunity to refute or disprove?

They have the explicit opportunity to cross examine every prosecution witness and are allowed to recall them again during their case, if necessary. And they are allowed to submit their own experts and their own documents and exhibits for evidence. What more does one expect?

I’m referring to the time available to the defense if there is a definitive end date and no cap on how long prosecution may take.

 

[katydid23]

I’m referring to the time available to the defense if there is a definitive end date and no cap on how long prosecution may take.

There is always a fair and coordinated time distribution. There is a scheduling time set aside early on, as each witness is submitted. The judge will make sure there is ample time for all necessary witnesses.IMO

 

[sunshineray]

The jury hears all of the evidence about why they believe the person is guilty and the defense doesn’t get any opportunity to refute or disprove any of it. That’s completely unfair.

Of course they do. They cross examine the P's witnesses and then put on there own witnesses. All the witnesses are asked questions on direct, cross and sometimes re-direct and sometimes they're recalled for more testimony. But on onus is on the Prosecution to prove guilt. The defendant is innocent until proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt. Since it's the Prosecution's burden to prove guilt, their case presentation is usually longer.

The SODDI (Some Other Dude(s) Did It) defense, which RA's attorneys are desperately trying to get it allowed is not always allowed because the law is stringent and leary of basically putting other people on trial in place of the defendant. Pretrial hearings will decide what evidentiary is acceptable and what's off limits...according to the law and precedents.

 

[grannygates]

I think we’re having two different conversations here. I was talking about the judges order released today. Not asking how court works. Although it was very nice of everyone to take time to write out those explanations. Thank you

 

[sunshineray]

I think we’re having two different conversations here. I was talking about the judges order released today. Not asking how court works. Although it was very nice of everyone to take time to write out those explanations. Thank you

The trial is set from October 14th to November 15th. Does that not seem like enough time? The judge said in their filing the defense was good with that, they agreed to that.

 

[katydid23]

I think we’re having two different conversations here. I was talking about the judges order released today. Not asking how court works. Although it was very nice of everyone to take time to write out those explanations. Thank you

I'm talking about her order released today as well---I even quoted from it.

Where did she say there was not going to be time for the defense to put on their case?

 

[grannygates]

I'm talking about her order released today as well---I even quoted from it.

Where did she say there was not going to be time for the defense to put on their case?

We already know we’re not going to agree so we may as well save time and agree to disagree now.

This is a polarizing case and I think it would benefit the thread for everyone to be open to users discussing differing opinions on the forum without the need to debate everyone about what is “right”.

My “right” is different from yours and that is okay! That’s what makes the world an interesting place.

 

[sunshineray]

I'm talking about her order released today as well---I even quoted from it.

Where did she say there was not going to be time for the defense to put on their case?

She didn't. JG also said that the trial is Oct 14th to Nov 15th and the defense agreed to it. It may just be a case of them agreeing to something and then taking it back, like they did with stepping down as council. BR straight-up admitted he lied to the judge. It may just be more of the same. Oh yes we sent you our request, didn't you get it? MO

 

[somequestions]

How do you know how long it would take two teens to walk across the bridge? Or walk anywhere? Maybe they stopped, goofed around, had fun, or maybe they were just walking very slowly and carefully on a dangerous bridge.

How would you know how long it would take a man to look at fish on a platform of the Monon High Bridge? Maybe he just stopped to look at fish for a short while, walked back not too far behind the woman who saw him, and was passed the point of the Mears entrance when Abby and Libby then started walking to the bridge. Then Abby and Libby walked to the Monon High Bridge and someone came up from the other side. This person then probably left the same way after committing the crime.

What if the witness(BB) is wrong about the 2 girls she saw or if she did not see them until she was almost back to her vehicle at the Mears entrance as they were getting prepared to walk down to the bridge? She obviously did not leave right away if her vehicle was not observed leaving until 2:14pm.

When Richard Allen left in his black 2016 Ford Focus, did it pass the Hoosier Harveststore camera at around 4pm? Can LE at least prove that by showing the car that arrived at around 1:30 on the Hoosier Harveststore camera is the same one that left at 4pm, thereby establishing that whoever drove that car was in the park area for at least 2 and a half hours?

I would only vote guilty in this case if there is some sort of strong evidence, DNA, confessions with known details only the killer would know, or evidence found of the girls during the home search that tie him to the crime. I would want to be sure the right person was being convicted of the crime.

It definitely helps to know details of the case, like the confession details or strong evidence like DNA or other forensic evidence, if the prosecution has any besides an unspent cartridge that was matched to Richard Allen's gun. Everyone looks at the case differently.

 

[mrjitty]

So now we see if they go back to SCOIN

IMO the defence is trying to prevent Gull from ruling on their 3rd party defence and the confessions - so they will now need to go back to SCOIN before those hearings happen, or just take their licks and get ready for trial.

Either way, the next steps should confirm the shape of the trial and which Judge will sit.

MOO.

 

[somequestions]

She was walking her dog. Dogs, in my experience, stop and go, sniffing this and that or watching birds and squirrels. Saying BB routes to and from should have only taken so long from point A to B have no dog factor. Just some thoughts

This information, if accurate, helps as I thought she was on a workout type walk to and from the bridge and this is why the direct to and from the bridge idea of the timeline.

 

[somequestions]

I don’t need to work on the timeline because RA says he was gone from the trails by 12:30 on 2/13. He must believe he can prove that in court. What happened after 12:30 won’t be a concern to him, as it could not be him seen on the bridge with the girls, right?

But can't a witness description be off? Just because he is standing on platform 1 and Richard Allen states he was standing on platform 1, does that mean it is the same person? Even Ron Logan, who I do not believe has anything to do with this crime, is giving interviews in blue jackets.

 

[mrjitty]

ETA: I have no idea how they are communicating now. Maybe by carrier pigeon?

RSBM

I think this was discussed before on here as to local practice. Wouldn't it be totally normal for them to conduct all business only the docket and via hearings?

I wasn't sure if doing this kind of admin over email was a thing

MOO

 

[snooptroop88]

How would you know how long it would take a man to look at fish on a platform of the Monon High Bridge? Maybe he just stopped to look at fish for a short while, walked back not too far behind the woman who saw him, and was passed the point of the Mears entrance when Abby and Libby then started walking to the bridge. Then Abby and Libby walked to the Monon High Bridge and someone came up from the other side. This person then probably left the same way after committing the crime.

What if the witness(BB) is wrong about the 2 girls she saw or if she did not see them until she was almost back to her vehicle at the Mears entrance as they were getting prepared to walk down to the bridge? She obviously did not leave right away if her vehicle was not observed leaving until 2:14pm.

When Richard Allen left in his black 2016 Ford Focus, did it pass the Hoosier Harveststore camera at around 4pm? Can LE at least prove that by showing the car that arrived at around 1:30 on the Hoosier Harveststore camera is the same one that left at 4pm, thereby establishing that whoever drove that car was in the park area for at least 2 and a half hours?

I would only vote guilty in this case if there is some sort of strong evidence, DNA, confessions with known details only the killer would know, or evidence found of the girls during the home search that tie him to the crime. I would want to be sure the right person was being convicted of the crime.

It definitely helps to know details of the case, like the confession details or strong evidence like DNA or other forensic evidence, if the prosecution has any besides an unspent cartridge that was matched to Richard Allen's gun. Everyone looks at the case differently.

Agreed on this. I have enough. That doesn't mean like empirically, that there's enough. There's probably not enough for someone else out there somewhere. The lack of DNA for me has always been a huge problem. However, the CO interview and RA's "suddenly" changed timeframe is a worry. The phone with the stock ticker that now may not actually have been there that day, that's a problem if it in fact wasn't there. The girls who saw him at Freedom Bridge in accordance with his original timeframe, that's a big problem because one of those girls said he had something covering his mouth, prompting me to wonder if this revelation (which is significant) isn't part of the reason his memory weirdly improved later as to the timeframe for his day on the trails. All his own confessions to crimes he's now pleading not guilty to, another problem. The "keepsake bullet" in his dresser in the master bedroom, he's not an avid hunter, another problem. The bullet on the trail, another problem, and a much bigger one if it in some significant way matches to the "keepsake bullet." And the timing of the CO interview may be a critical problem, and that date/time is being withheld for some reason. RA saw young girls on a trail the same day young girls vanished on the trail. He didn't get a good look at the girls he saw. He'd have no way to know these girls he saw weren't victims. He should have been chop chop out the door or on the phone talking to LE. I hope it was the case, but I doubt it based on what I've seen. And also, the FM doesn't really explain how a spear tattoo on a guard's face suddenly translated in RA's brain into "Odinism," "Odinite plot," and "Odinite murderers on the trail that day, they did it!!" It's a big leap and 136 pages with footnotes seems like it should have been enough time to explain it.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I thought RA reported he was on the trails from 12 noon to around 1:30 pm. Iirc?

Oops… yes, 1:30 not 12:30, too late to correct. So, according to his 2022 interview, he was gone before the girls arrived, right?

 

[steeltowngirl]

How would you know how long it would take a man to look at fish on a platform of the Monon High Bridge? Maybe he just stopped to look at fish for a short while, walked back not too far behind the woman who saw him, and was passed the point of the Mears entrance when Abby and Libby then started walking to the bridge. Then Abby and Libby walked to the Monon High Bridge and someone came up from the other side. This person then probably left the same way after committing the crime.

What if the witness(BB) is wrong about the 2 girls she saw or if she did not see them until she was almost back to her vehicle at the Mears entrance as they were getting prepared to walk down to the bridge? She obviously did not leave right away if her vehicle was not observed leaving until 2:14pm.

When Richard Allen left in his black 2016 Ford Focus, did it pass the Hoosier Harveststore camera at around 4pm? Can LE at least prove that by showing the car that arrived at around 1:30 on the Hoosier Harveststore camera is the same one that left at 4pm, thereby establishing that whoever drove that car was in the park area for at least 2 and a half hours?

I would only vote guilty in this case if there is some sort of strong evidence, DNA, confessions with known details only the killer would know, or evidence found of the girls during the home search that tie him to the crime. I would want to be sure the right person was being convicted of the crime.

It definitely helps to know details of the case, like the confession details or strong evidence like DNA or other forensic evidence, if the prosecution has any besides an unspent cartridge that was matched to Richard Allen's gun. Everyone looks at the case differently.

I have not attempted to figure out how long a man would look at fish on the bridge. Perhaps you meant to address a different poster?

I agree that it is necessary to know the full details of the case. That is what we expect to see at trial.

Is RA the man on the bridge in Libby’s photo, or not? Can you, or anyone else here, point to somewhere in the multiple FM’s where it states RA is NOT the man in the photo? I’ve been looking for a reference, and not found one as of yet.