Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #185

[TTF14]

Ok. I will keep looking to see if it’s in any of prosecution documents. So my question still is - are you feeling that prosecution will introduce evidence that RA is not BG, yet he is still involved in the murders?

ETA: I see you answered but I will add that I’ve not seen where defense said RA is not BG?

Yes, I broke up those two questions of yours to make it cleaner. I don't think the defense has said that, correct. I believe they are still investigating on their own. And I believe the State did not count on that. My opinion.

IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

I likewise don’t believe that defense believes Odinists did it. They said that to create public shock value. To get folks realizing the mistakes that were made in the investigation. They had to go big.

jmo

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe they did at first once they saw all of the information the State had withheld, not turned over, or "lost." Hard to say. I think it was staged to look like Odinists did it so they should be looking at who first steered them in that direction, and they probably are. IMO MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe they did at first once they saw all of the information the State had withheld, not turned over, or "lost." Hard to say. I think it was staged to look like Odinists did it so they should be looking at who first steered them in that direction, and they probably are. IMO MOO

Interesting thought. Perhaps LE did investigate the Odinist angle more than we know. And were duped by someone who inserted themselves into the investigation. “You want to know what we know”. Thus, the change in investigative strategy in 2019.

jmo

 

[sunshineray]

That is archived data, but yes, the subject matter is interesting. The dates on the ends of the cases tell you how recent the content. The law has changed on the issue quite a bit since 1989.

From your link:

"This is archived content from the U.S. Department of Justice website. The information here may be outdated and links may no longer function. Please contact webmaster@usdoj.gov if you have any questions about the archive site."

Yes I saw that and that makes me ever more curious as to the possible tech advances and application, if not admissible in court, could still be very useful to LE investigations.

 

[Spartygirl]

Interesting thought. Perhaps LE did investigate the Odinist angle more than we know. And were duped by someone who inserted themselves into the investigation. “You want to know what we know”. Thus, the change in investigative strategy in 2019.

jmo

1000% agree
LE did IMO, investigate the Odin angle but found it irrelevant and there were alibis.
So they changed direction and strategy after continuing research and found other connections. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Validity

• Indiana has recognized the validity of voice identifications.

Matthews v. State, 518 N.E.2d 807, 808 (Ind. 1988)(citing Barnes v. State, 266 N.E.2d 617, 618 (Ind. 1971), reh’g denied)

Chambers v. State, 422 N.E.2d 1198, 1201 (Ind. 1981)(citing Barnes v. State, 266 N.E.2d 617, 618 (Ind. 1971), reh’g denied))

See Harris v. State, 373 N.E.2d 149, 150 (Ind. 1978)(“Use of voice identification of an offender is permitted in criminal cases.”)

MCPO Casebook - Voice Identification

Admissibility Suggestivity in voice identifications: Subject of what is said Suggestivity in voice identifications: Voice identification lineups Sufficiency Voice identification evidence as direct evidence

www.mcpocasebook.com

Is this part of that stress level measurement thing? I saw that it may be used more and more instead of polygraph for identifying lies.

 

[sunshineray]

Sgt. Holeman tells us investigators recovered more audio from Libby’s phone, which was found with the girls at the crime scene.

ISP: More audio recovered from slain Delphi teen's phone

“It does not appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls. We have only released a portion of it. There are some others we think could help us but again protecting the integrity of the investigation is key so we cannot release everything because there are certain people that know the details and if we release it all then we get into false confessions,” said Sgt. Holeman.

He said something more to the girls after "down the hill". That's what that sounds like, more words recorded that only the victims, their killer and LE know.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Is this part of that stress level measurement thing? I saw that it may be used more and more instead of polygraph for identifying lies.

The articles are very dated and as noted by another poster, relate to witness identification of a voice. I think your info was more recent and discusses spectrogram use for voice analysis. I can see that being useful to detect stress levels.

The new technologies built by Amazon, Google, Meta, Apple will, IMO, undoubtedly change the course of investigations and eventually be used in criminal proceedings.

I’m reading this more recent piece (2020) about voiceprint identification. Indiana appears not to allow it. Yet!

“Many state and federal courts have abandoned Frye and adopted the argument of McCormick. The supreme courts of Minnesota, Maine, Ohio and Rhode Island have admitted aural-spectrographic voice evidence following McCormick. Intermediate appellate courts in California, Mary land and Michigan admitted such evidence following Frye but were reversed by their respective supreme courts, which held that the Frye test had not been met. The Massachusetts Supreme Court held aural-spectrographic voice evidence admissible applying the Frye test, while those of Arizona, Indiana and Pennsylvania did not.”

Voiceprint Identification

Voiceprint identification can be defined as a combination of both aural (listening) and spectrographic (instrumental) comparison of one or more known voices with an unknown voice

www.expertpages.com

 

[AugustWest]

The articles are very dated and as noted by another poster, relate to witness identification of a voice. I think your info was more recent and discusses spectrogram use for voice analysis. I can see that being useful to detect stress levels.

The new technologies built by Amazon, Google, Meta, Apple will, IMO, undoubtedly change the course of investigations and eventually be used in criminal proceedings.

I’m reading this more recent piece (2020) about voiceprint identification. Indiana appears not to allow it. Yet!

“Many state and federal courts have abandoned Frye and adopted the argument of McCormick. The supreme courts of Minnesota, Maine, Ohio and Rhode Island have admitted aural-spectrographic voice evidence following McCormick. Intermediate appellate courts in California, Mary land and Michigan admitted such evidence following Frye but were reversed by their respective supreme courts, which held that the Frye test had not been met. The Massachusetts Supreme Court held aural-spectrographic voice evidence admissible applying the Frye test, while those of Arizona, Indiana and Pennsylvania did not.”

Voiceprint Identification

Voiceprint identification can be defined as a combination of both aural (listening) and spectrographic (instrumental) comparison of one or more known voices with an unknown voice

www.expertpages.com

Most courts have moved on from the Frye standard to the Daubert standard.

See: Frye Standard and Daubert Standard.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Most courts have moved on from the Frye standard to the Daubert standard.

See: Frye Standard and Daubert Standard.

Interesting. More to digest. Indiana uses Daubert. Does it apply to criminal cases as well as civil?

January 1, 2011. INDIANA (Daubert (Non-binding)) Adopted via Subsection (b) of the Indiana Rule of Evidence 702, which states that expert scientific testimony is admissible only if the court determines that the scientific principles it relies upon are reliable.

What are the 5 Daubert factors?​

Under the Daubert standard, the court provided guidelines for determining whether an expert’s methodology is valid. The daubert guidelines consist of five factors of consideration:

1. Whether the expert’s technique or theory can be tested and assessed for reliability
2. Whether the technique or theory has been subject to peer review and publication
3. The known or potential rate of error of the technique or theory
4. The existence and maintenance of standards and controls
5. Whether the technique or theory has been generally accepted in the scientific community

 

[AugustWest]

Interesting. More to digest. Indiana uses Daubert. Does it apply to criminal cases as well as civil?

Yes; the Federal Rules of Evidence (Rule 702) were modified after the Daubert decision. States have codified their own versions of the FRE, which are used in both civil and criminal courts.

Rule 702. Testimony by Expert Witnesses

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[steeltowngirl]

Quite a few cases discussed in linked write up. Notable section:

Court decisions reviewing the early voice identification cases may not be relevant to present day cases because the older decisions were based on less sophisticated procedures. Most of the courts which have rejected admission have been aware of continuing work in this field and have specifically left the door open as to future admissibility.

Proper presentation and explanation of the research pertaining to spectrographic voice identification analysis will allow the courts to better understand the accuracy and reliability of the spectrographic voice identification method. When the research is properly presented, the studies show that properly trained individuals, using standard methodology, produce accurate results.

The current trends in the admissibility issue of voice identification evidence indicate that courts are more willing to allow the evidence into the courtroom when a proper foundation has been established which then allows the trier of fact to determine the weight to be assigned to the evidence.

Voice Identification The Aural/Spectrographic Method | Owen Forensic Services, LLC

I - Introduction The forensic science of voice identification has come a long way from when it was first introduced in the American courts back in the mid 1960's. In the early days of this identification technique there was little research to support the theory that human voices are unique ...

www.owenforensicservices.com

 

[Cool Cats]

"It's become a legal disaster," said longtime Indianapolis criminal defense attorney Bob Hammerle, who's been following the case. "It should've gone to trial a long time ago. There was no reason that it couldn't."

Delphi murder case, marred by delays and endless fights, has become a 'legal disaster'

By the time Richard Allen goes to trial in the fall, the families of Abby Williams and Libby German will have been waiting for justice for nearly eight years.

news.yahoo.com

 

[EOA]

Interesting thought. Perhaps LE did investigate the Odinist angle more than we know. And were duped by someone who inserted themselves into the investigation. “You want to know what we know”. Thus, the change in investigative strategy in 2019.

jmo

On one hand, the D in their Second Motion to Dismiss pp 9-10 refers to multiple Elvis Fields interviews, Rod Abrams interviews (plural but didn’t state “multiple”), multiple Johnny Messer interviews, and multiple Taylor Hornaday interviews. Well if these folks were all interviewed multiple times, which could mean 2 times but also could mean 4 or 5, it’s hard to complain that LE didn’t investigate these people.

On the other hand, in the State’s Response to the above mention, the P states that Brad Holder’s phone extraction data wasn’t lost as accused by the D, because it wasn’t ever extracted. (even though Holder himself seemed certain in interviews that he gave his phone to LE). IMO if the Odin angle was considered legitimate enough to interview multiple Odin-connected people multiple times why wouldn’t the head Odinist’s phone data have been examined? Apparently he had an alibi that he couldn’t have been physically present at LE’s believed tight timeline, but that doesn’t mean he’s clear from any conceivable electronic connection or couldn’t have been the mastermind organizer who hired the other minions to carry it out. JMO

I gather from Click’s position that yes some or all of the Odinists were investigated, possibly even thoroughly investigated, a volume & degree of evidence was uncovered which some LE considered very serious while other LE considered minimal. In the end the latter view won out and the resources moved on elsewhere while the former group was in disbelief.

 

[mrjitty]

On one hand, the D in their Second Motion to Dismiss pp 9-10 refers to multiple Elvis Fields interviews, Rod Abrams interviews (plural but didn’t state “multiple”), multiple Johnny Messer interviews, and multiple Taylor Hornaday interviews. Well if these folks were all interviewed multiple times, which could mean 2 times but also could mean 4 or 5, it’s hard to complain that LE didn’t investigate these people.

Exactly. It strikes me that the Franks contains so much content about the "Odinist suspects" precisely because of a detailed investigation. All the info comes from the discovery. I feel in the motion to dismiss hearing, and 2nd motion to dismiss, the argument morphed into the idea that somehow the real evidence was out there, but the prosecution destroyed it because reasons.

On the other hand, in the State’s Response to the above mention, the P states that Brad Holder’s phone extraction data wasn’t lost as accused by the D, because it wasn’t ever extracted. (even though Holder himself seemed certain in interviews that he gave his phone to LE). IMO if the Odin angle was considered legitimate enough to interview multiple Odin-connected people multiple times why wouldn’t the head Odinist’s phone data have been examined?

I think we have to be super careful with the allegation that the phome was "extracted" as opposed to a cursory examination (for example) during an interview. The prosecution have the complete paper trail for consent to extraction of LHs phone. BH does not say he consented to such an extraction. From the states response at p3 - my emphasis:

In regards to Brad Holder’s phone extraction, there is no reliable evidence that the State ever extracted data from Brad Holder’s phone. The only support that the State ever possessed Brad Holder’s phone is in the May 2, 2024 Brad Holder deposition. The Defense in their motion report that Holder indicated that he “was pretty sure”, he turned his phone over to the police. In addition to saying that he was “pretty sure”, Holder went on to say, “I’m not gonna say that positively, but I’m pretty sure they took my phone. They took my son’s and my phone.” (Deposition, page 13) The State believes that Holder is referring to February 17, 2017 where he and his son were both interviewed at the Delphi Police Department. On at least two occasions in the deposition, Holder states that the police took both his phone and his son’s phone while father and son were in the lobby of the police station on the day they were questioned by the police. When asked how he knew the police took Logan’s phone, Holder said, “I’m pretty sure they did it right there in the lobby. I’m pretty sure they took both of our phones. Don’t quote me on that, because that was a long time ago…..” (Deposition page 14.) However, as documented in records previously provided in discovery, Indiana State Police Sergeant Brian Bunner collected Logan Holder’s phone at Logansport High School on February 14, 2017 at 12:45 pm. Logan’s mother signed the consent to search form as the parent of Logan. Brad Holder was not present.

So IMO, the probable reason there is no extraction is because it was never asked for, and/or never consented to. Rather there was a more informal moment where they might have got to look at it for some minutes. Especially my understanding is that the LH consent came early in the heat to solve this crime, whereas if you are BH and know you have nothing to do with this, but are perhaps somewhat dodgy, would you let police extract your phone??? I probably would not consent to this myself.

All in all, I suspect the defence are trying to create an expectation that an extraction should exist, when that is a big assumption on their part.

Apparently he had an alibi that he couldn’t have been physically present at LE’s believed tight timeline, but that doesn’t mean he’s clear from any conceivable electronic connection or couldn’t have been the mastermind organizer who hired the other minions to carry it out. JMO

Right but that is quite speculative? There is no evidence he is a mastermind, and the idea that police should have to prove he isn't the mastermind seems upside down to me.

I gather from Click’s position that yes some or all of the Odinists were investigated, possibly even thoroughly investigated, a volume & degree of evidence was uncovered which some LE considered very serious while other LE considered minimal. In the end the latter view won out and the resources moved on elsewhere while the former group was in disbelief.

IMO this is just a classic case of an investigative theory that didn't pan out because they never found any hard evidence. It happens!

All MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

One of the other witness said her head came up to "BG's" shoulder. He's short, and she's tallish from what I've seen in photos (taller than him). So, I am not sure their eye witness testimony is any better than BB's recollection she gave to the sketch artist. The jury will notice this (if the State isn't successful in keeping it out of the trial).

Also, RA looks nothing like BG, IMO. (But nobody else does either, IMO)

IMO MOO

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Objection-Filed-6-27-2023-13.34.25-248103915-FFC47C07-5DAF-414E-9879-66EEBA100263.pdf

I've never seen a photo of any of the female witnesses (group of 4, 2 being sisters) in MSM. Is this a FB or SM thing?

BB and SC were shown photos and picked RA as the person they saw.

SC is shown a picture of the man on the bridge and she that is the same man she observed walking on 300 North.

Further, BB, was shown a picture of the individual on the Manon High Bridge and she says that is the same individual that she witnessed on the trails and on the bridge.

Through the statement of Mr. Allen, he admits that on February 13'", 2017, he parked his vehicle at the "old Farm Bureau building" from 1330-1530hrs and was on the trails at that time. There is no "old Farm Bureau building" anywhere close to the trails or bridges. In Detective Liggett believes he is referring to the old Child Protective Services building.

2017, Richard Allen owned a 2016 black Ford Focus and a 2006 grey Ford 500. Upon review of video collected from the Hoosier Harvestore on February 13", 2017, investigators were able to locate a vehicle that appears to match Allen's 2016 Ford Focus on the video at 13:27 actual time. That coincides with Allen saying he was at the trails at 13:30.

They caught RA in lies during his Oct 22 first interrogation.

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/u...3915-FFC47C07-5DAF-414E-9879-66EEBA100263.pdf
MOO

 

[Salah11]

And yet some will still deny it’s him on the bridge even though all the evidence suggests it’s quite clearly him.

 

[steeltowngirl]

On one hand, the D in their Second Motion to Dismiss pp 9-10 refers to multiple Elvis Fields interviews, Rod Abrams interviews (plural but didn’t state “multiple”), multiple Johnny Messer interviews, and multiple Taylor Hornaday interviews. Well if these folks were all interviewed multiple times, which could mean 2 times but also could mean 4 or 5, it’s hard to complain that LE didn’t investigate these people.

On the other hand, in the State’s Response to the above mention, the P states that Brad Holder’s phone extraction data wasn’t lost as accused by the D, because it wasn’t ever extracted. (even though Holder himself seemed certain in interviews that he gave his phone to LE). IMO if the Odin angle was considered legitimate enough to interview multiple Odin-connected people multiple times why wouldn’t the head Odinist’s phone data have been examined? Apparently he had an alibi that he couldn’t have been physically present at LE’s believed tight timeline, but that doesn’t mean he’s clear from any conceivable electronic connection or couldn’t have been the mastermind organizer who hired the other minions to carry it out. JMO

I gather from Click’s position that yes some or all of the Odinists were investigated, possibly even thoroughly investigated, a volume & degree of evidence was uncovered which some LE considered very serious while other LE considered minimal. In the end the latter view won out and the resources moved on elsewhere while the former group was in disbelief.

I’m currently considering at least 2 possibilities.

1. The leads Click and LE were chasing towards the Odinist crowd were purposeful misdirection. The crime scene was actually staged to look like Odinists were involved.

2. Someone from the Odinist crowd was somehow involved, but motive for the murders had nothing to do with white supremacy. They were also connected to a group of sexual predators - the “others” involved in the murders. LE may know this, but as of now, doesn’t have enough evidence to charge them.

jmo

 

[Salah11]

One of my sticking points with RA having a accomplice is there is no sightings of a second let alone a group of men out on that trial at 1.30pm.

If RA didn’t act alone then why is he seen alone by every single witness that we have heard from?!.

 

[steeltowngirl]

One of my sticking points with RA having a accomplice is there is no sightings of a second let alone a group of men out on that trial at 1.30pm.

If RA didn’t act alone then why is he seen alone by every single witness that we have heard from?!.

Great question. It’s entirely possible he acted alone and I get why many firmly believe so. My theory is that others were involved digitally, if not physically. If physically involved at the crime scene, others may have entered via the cemetery or another path that didn’t cross with any witnesses. I have toyed with the idea that the girls left the area and got in a car or walked elsewhere and met someone or a group of someones, then returned to the creek bed, but LE is adamant that they were deceased by 3:30. So, that theory doesn’t work.

jmo