Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #186

[sunshineray]

Off the top of my head, (disclaimer!!) ... here's my understanding ... as I recollect ... (and I'm traveling so ... ):

I'm thinking ... MW's ICloud is not in Defense Filing, Exhibit 1. (that's Forston)

D's Exhibit 1, and P's 146 pagers = (It's my understanding) is ONLY Forston's texts with ... various. (The one that's "my wife is leaving me" is likely Westerman (now divorced) - to Forston.

But I think that MW's ICloud production would be confidential/not public record, b/c the MW/AB ICloud records were RA's Defense Team's Work Product. (Pretty darn sure, off my head.)
It remains a shocker that NM and Holeman actually investigated and read through RA's Attorney Work Product, without the D realizing ... which is why I remember this ICloud account.

They (NM/Holeman) must have been certain that the Defense they were investigating were being removed from RA's case; otherwise how could the ISP lead in Abby/Libby's death and the DA bringing charges against RA possibly think it was okay to investigation the Defense who just deposed you (Holeman) b/c you are their RA witness ... or the Defense is you opponent in RA's court.?

The ICloud evidence is another layer of absurdity and massive distrust between D & P here. b/c that ICloud evidence revealed RA Defense work product, IIRC, it's withheld from public but was presented to the Court and the D.

JMHO. AND by memory. Feel free to check my memory.

The defense, including MW because AB included MW as a strategist, were being investigated for a crime, more than one actual if you count each instance that MW and AB's office dispersed protected discovery. Are you saying that because the defense subpoenaed Holeman to be deposed about RA's case he's then not allowed to investigate the criminal act of leaking protected confidential files of an investigation he's involved with?

 

[steeltowngirl]

Off the top of my head, (disclaimer!!) ... here's my understanding ... as I recollect ... (and I'm traveling so ... ):

I'm thinking ... MW's ICloud is not in Defense Filing, Exhibit 1. (that's Forston)

D's Exhibit 1, and P's 146 pagers = (It's my understanding) is ONLY Forston's texts with ... various. (The one that's "my wife is leaving me" is likely Westerman (now divorced) - to Forston.

But I think that MW's ICloud production would be confidential/not public record, b/c the MW/AB ICloud records were RA's Defense Team's Work Product. (Pretty darn sure, off my head.)
It remains a shocker that NM and Holeman actually investigated and read through RA's Attorney Work Product, without the D realizing ... which is why I remember this ICloud account.

They (NM/Holeman) must have been certain that the Defense they were investigating were being removed from RA's case; otherwise how could the ISP lead in Abby/Libby's death and the DA bringing charges against RA possibly think it was okay to investigation the Defense who just deposed you (Holeman) b/c you are their RA witness ... or the Defense is you opponent in RA's court.?

The ICloud evidence is another layer of absurdity and massive distrust between D & P here. b/c that ICloud evidence revealed RA Defense work product, IIRC, it's withheld from public but was presented to the Court and the D.

JMHO. AND by memory. Feel free to check my memory.

I will have to revisit the points, but sounds about right to me. I think it’s related to the ex-parte, which Nick quickly addressed. Appreciate that you are digging into this with me.

jmo

 

[grannygates]

.

The defense, including MW because AB included MW as a strategist, were being investigated for a crime, more than one actual if you count each instance that MW and AB's office dispersed protected discovery. Are you saying that because the defense subpoenaed Holeman to be deposed about RA's case he's then not allowed to investigate the criminal act of leaking protected confidential files of an investigation he's involved with?

Im not a lawyer so I can’t speak on the legality of it but good grief, a key investigator in the murder investigation (with a contentious relationship with the defense) also doing an evidence leaks investigation and potentially being exposed to the defenses privileged work product is a huge conflict of interest in my eyes.

IMO I would expect LE with no relation to the murder case and no history with the defense team to conduct the investigation. MOO

 

[Emma Peel]

.

Im not a lawyer so I can’t speak on the legality of it but good grief, a key investigator in the murder investigation (with a contentious relationship with the defense) also doing an evidence leaks investigation and potentially being exposed to the defenses privileged work product is a huge conflict of interest in my eyes.

IMO I would expect LE with no relation to the murder case and no history with the defense team to conduct the investigation. MOO

Most would agree.

RA's P and key LE witness Holeman ... should have been NO WHERE NEAR the Westerman or Baldwin Office or Forston investigation(s). IIRC, it was Judge Gull that told NM to get after it, investigate it.

It was Holeman who told Forston he'd call Gull to find out what she'll charge Forston with.

IIRC, Wieneke, Hennessey and Ausbrook each filed briefs describing the serious ethical lapses in the leak panic and then the determination to charge the D with contempt/criminal contempt/ or as NM put it "unique contempt" - whatever that is.

JMHO

 

[TTF14]

I don’t know, as Nick hasn’t shared his thoughts with me lately.

If that’s in a motion, it would seem he can’t prevent people from talking, but would like to prevent defense team and/or their associates from slandering him via messages that can later be brought forward. As in, a hearing about a leak.

Kind of a shame he would have to motion for such a thing. Would seem to me it would go without saying that communications between legal professionals and associates would actually be…. professional.

ETA: I think the question wasn’t to me. Some WS features I’ve just enabled are showing posts up oddly.

jmo

Well, even if it wasn't directed to you, it's ok that you answered .

I just can imagine how this would be discussed if the defense team had put a "make them be nice to me" clause in a motion..... oh wait, they did say something like that about the judge disparaging them and it was met with mockery and disdain....

They all should be behaving professionally toward each other.

I do think NM has behaved professionally throughout, even though I think he's green and not at all ready for a case of this magnitude.

IMO MOO

 

[Emma Peel]

The defense, including MW because AB included MW as a strategist, were being investigated for a crime, more than one actual if you count each instance that MW and AB's office dispersed protected discovery. Are you saying that because the defense subpoenaed Holeman to be deposed about RA's case he's then not allowed to investigate the criminal act of leaking protected confidential files of an investigation he's involved with?

As far as I know, the Defense were NEVER investigated for a crime. If you believe so, please provide that link.

I'm sorry if my post was confusing. But yes, you've basically understood what I mean. Holeman, a witness against RA, interrogated RA, arrested RA, was deposed by RA's counsel, etc. ... cannot be investigating ANYTHING do do with RA's counsel and their work product. NOT A THING. That's a serious conflict. (Last I knew, there are other investigators in the ISP. No excuse not to pass this to another investigator.)

The SAME goes for NM as the prosecutor repping the State against RA, cannot be involved in investigating RA's counsel and the work product for their client, RA. Huge conflict, and likely a violation of bar ethics. (So ... I've wondered; did NM understand that the D were to be removed, so he felt he could direct the investigation early days?)

The system has rules and many ways to allow that investigative work to be done without involving all these conflicts, even special District Attorneys can step in.

More complicated: It was Judge Gull that ordered NM to order Holeman to get busy investigation. Judge Gull either missed that there was a conflict ... or she and NM had already made up her mind to remove RA's Defense attorneys. Judge Gull had already discussed removing the Defense with NM, who's opinion she sought.

JMHO

 

[steeltowngirl]

Uncomplicated:
Crime scene photos should never have been leaked.
Anyone on the case should not be messaging anything about the evidence.
Personal gossip about parties to the case should be left at the bar, or better yet, not be said at all.

Keep it classy.
And legally, not impeachable.

jmo

 

[New Penny]

Or RL (dead), PE, (dead), Chadwell, DN, or even one of the odinists, especially the one with a capacity mental of a child (EF), etc. So many possibilities.

I'm not of the mind that RA was coerced to confess, in writing or on audio, by anyone except by his own guilty conscience. I know may others feel differently.

If you're talking about DD's written notes and report, we'll just have to wait until trial when he testifies to understand the particulars.

I believe it's been said though that RA's meeting with DD was possibly not recorded. Another thing for DD to testify about at trial.

In all due respect, I think you may have misunderstood my point about the DD meeting with RA. I believe it was recorded in written form.

My comment stated nothing about RA confessing.

 

[sunshineray]

.

Im not a lawyer so I can’t speak on the legality of it but good grief, a key investigator in the murder investigation (with a contentious relationship with the defense) also doing an evidence leaks investigation and potentially being exposed to the defenses privileged work product is a huge conflict of interest in my eyes.

IMO I would expect LE with no relation to the murder case and no history with the defense team to conduct the investigation. MOO

The investigators are investigating. Priviledge work? What exactly is this privileged work you speak of that needs to be locked away from sight? Discovery given to the defense by tge State? Guess who supplied that discovery? Law enforcements investigators. Sounds like the defense just wants to cover-up things to me. There were more people involved in the leaks than MW or RF but they're doing their darndest to stay in the shadows. It will all come out. AJMO

As far as a contentious relationship, the investigators are investigating. That's the relationship with the actors known to be involved and suspected to be involved. The LE investigating are professionals doing their jobs. They're not trying to frame anyone. Not the lawyers or their associates and also not trying to bring down the innocent little CVS-employed man for murders they know he didn't commit!. LE is acting in good faith which is more than I can say for the defense team and their associates. Are they afraid of a thorough investigation? They seem to be, very much so. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

In all due respect, I think you may have misunderstood my point about the DD meeting with RA. I believe it was recorded in written form.

My comment stated nothing about RA confessing.

I didn't misunderstand. IIRC DD said it may have been recorded, almost 6 years later trying to remember. I wonder just how many interviews DD conducted?

 

[Emma Peel]

Uncomplicated:
Crime scene photos should never have been leaked.
Anyone on the case should not be messaging anything about the evidence.
Personal gossip about parties to the case should be left at the bar, or better yet, not be said at all.

Keep it classy.
And legally, not impeachable.

jmo

I endorse!!

i would add:

The prosecutor should not investigate the defense.

The head LE investigator should not investigate the defense.

The Court (and staff) should not leak. And the Court should not remove the accused counsel without due process and a hearing.
Jmo

 

[steeltowngirl]

I endorse!!

i would add:

The prosecutor should not investigate the defense.

The head LE investigator should not investigate the defense.

The Court (and staff) should not leak. And the Court should not remove the accused counsel without due process and a hearing.
Jmo

Good stuff.
Thankful for SCOIN getting it back on track.
Fingers crossed - it stays on track now.
All eyes on October.

jmo

 

[mrjitty]

The defense, including MW because AB included MW as a strategist, were being investigated for a crime, more than one actual if you count each instance that MW and AB's office dispersed protected discovery. Are you saying that because the defense subpoenaed Holeman to be deposed about RA's case he's then not allowed to investigate the criminal act of leaking protected confidential files of an investigation he's involved with?

For me the problem with the 'work product' argument has always been that the defence never told Judge Gull this on the October 10th, 2023 phone call. So why would the investigators, who after all were investigating MW for stealing from AB, expect to find work product in MW's icloud?

It's actually a great example of how ABs negligent conduct led to exposure of parts of his clients strategy. He could have said to Judge Gull in the first place "we need to tread carefully here judge - i've sent privileged material to MW, and we need to make sure that any digital extraction only goes to a different police team and prosecutor".

IMO

 

[mrjitty]

The SAME goes for NM as the prosecutor repping the State against RA, cannot be involved in investigating RA's counsel and the work product for their client, RA. Huge conflict, and likely a violation of bar ethics. (So ... I've wondered; did NM understand that the D were to be removed, so he felt he could direct the investigation early days?)

The system has rules and many ways to allow that investigative work to be done without involving all these conflicts, even special District Attorneys can step in.

More complicated: It was Judge Gull that ordered NM to order Holeman to get busy investigation. Judge Gull either missed that there was a conflict ... or she and NM had already made up her mind to remove RA's Defense attorneys. Judge Gull had already discussed removing the Defense with NM, who's opinion she sought.

JMHO

RSBM

I agree that is what should have happened, but you've skipped over the part where AB didn't tell Judge Gull that MW had privileged work product. How would Judge Gull or indeed Holeman be expected to know this?

That was on AB IMO. Before we even get to the part where the privileged comms just happen to relate to the very question of the providence of the leaks ...

MOO

ETA - at the hearing DH tried to assert privilege but the Judge admitted the exhibit of the messages - but sealed.

 

[mrjitty]

I absolutely agree with that post. It seems a new strategy based in social media that some attorneys use and it seems a ugly way to try to subvert the justice. I think some attorneys become crazy in famous cases.

In my country there are a famous case that the wife of a missing husband reported his disappearance, went to the tv, giving many interviews, crying for him etc and some months later his body was found 120 miles away. After the investigation, she and his lover was charged with the homicide. She and her attorney put the blame in a group of angolans (just a general group, without specific names) and in an interview her attorney said the police missing a hole of the bullet in the bathtub, that the hole was made by the group of angolans and that didn't match with the police theory, and she showed the hole, jewels in a bag, etc. Of course the police had taken pics from the house and from the bathroom before and proved that there wasn't a hole and jewels before. The wife and the lover were convicted and some months laters her attorney was convicted to a 1 year of suspended prison because she had planted evidence.

I am absolutely appalled that an attorney would make that but she did it. She had a reputation to maintain but she did it.

This is just to say that some attorneys seems to seems to be willing to do anything to win a famous case.

Re your last sentence - yes!

I've had this feeling strongly since the Todd Click/Messer fiasco. Why was Baldwin leading this testimony in an entirely unrelated hearing about a guy who has nothing to do with the case? It felt like an obvious attempt to create a new conspiracy and sure enough defence surrogates were all over it.

MOO

 

[Charlot123]

Have you seen photos of RA clean shaven vs goatee/facial hair?

IMO, the photos of a clean shaven RA look like a much older, meek individual.

If RA took on that appearance when he met with DD, he could have been dismissed quickly.

It might also be worth mentioning that LE was strongly looking at RL, KAK and TK in the early days.

JMO

KAK and TK were at the end. Even RL was rather late.

Initially, there were: people who reposted Abby's photo on the IG, the group that was invited to go to the bridge but refused, a scholar who, unhappily, did resemble BG, all schoolfriends, maybe parents of kid who squabbled with the girls, relatives, a friend who responded to a FB post, neighbors, and finally, someone with the history of unsavory behavior who happened to have an alibi. Then came: all men of Delphi, including own police. Then people living around, some local gangs, school athletes, and not to forget the young man that a Redditor met on a road. Then came the time of someone's relative returning back from jail and the family being unhappy with it. Then there was a slew of real murderers and molesters. Then some bloggers crawled out of the woodwork and started accusing everyone. I mean, this case generated a lot of oddity. I don't know whether it was that prize fund, or people simply viewed the situation as the way to resolve problems with own relatives, or what. And all of it in the context of paranoia mixed with unbelievable gullibility. Remember a troll posting as the wife of a court worker, for example. So I understand why the LE wanted to wrap it up.

 

[sunshineray]

For me the problem with the 'work product' argument has always been that the defence never told Judge Gull this on the October 10th, 2023 phone call. So why would the investigators, who after all were investigating MW for stealing from AB, expect to find work product in MW's icloud?

It's actually a great example of how ABs negligent conduct led to exposure of parts of his clients strategy. He could have said to Judge Gull in the first place "we need to tread carefully here judge - i've sent privileged material to MW, and we need to make sure that any digital extraction only goes to a different police team and prosecutor".

IMO

I'm still wondering what the privledged "work product" is? It can't be State's discovery because that was produced by LE investigations, so they know it. It can't be defense discovery because they have to give that to the State who then asks LE to possible do more investigations, unless the defense haven't turned everything over? It can't be defense strategy because that was leaked for all to see and know by the defense's incompetence. What's left?

 

[sunshineray]

RSBM

I agree that is what should have happened, but you've skipped over the part where AB didn't tell Judge Gull that MW had privileged work product. How would Judge Gull or indeed Holeman be expected to know this?

That was on AB IMO. Before we even get to the part where the privileged comms just happen to relate to the very question of the providence of the leaks ...

MOO

ETA - at the hearing DH tried to assert privilege but the Judge admitted the exhibit of the messages - but sealed.

And at first MW's labeled a former friend turned snookering thief, nothing else. Then oh wait, he's currently a trusted strategist too...

 

[sunshineray]

Good stuff.
Thankful for SCOIN getting it back on track.
Fingers crossed - it stays on track now.
All eyes on October.

jmo

I'm waiting to see if the July pre-trial evidentiary hearing actually happens.

 

[Jade]

Yeh, I can just hear RA telling his wife, "I was there that day at a slightly different time. I talked to LE and have been cleared."

That goes on for years and years so until there is the surprising search warrant served on the two of them, she no doubt believed him up to then.

If RA's wife was preoccupied with her family tragedy his opportunity window is expanded enough for him to get himself in order post crime and would take advantage of that by staying quiet on the matter, imo.

Concerning RA’s wife and mother this portrayal of the perp seems spot on:


Carter kept speaking directly to the killer… A question to you: What will those closest to you think of when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls?"

Delphi murders: Is Abby and Libby’s killer one of Delphi’s own? ISP says, yes

New evidence emerges in the 2017 homicides of Abby Williams and Libby German, along with ISP's theory: Suspect has deep ties to Delphi.

www.jconline.com

all imo