Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #187

[m00c0w]

RSBM

None of the witness statements that we know about even match each other, according what's been revealed in the Franks memo (that cites discovery from the State, depositions, etc. to support their claims). So, we really don't know who saw RA, or who else they may have seen that DID match their statements. We also don't know who RA saw....do we? Do we have confirmation he saw BB? Did he describe her?

IMO MOO

RA admits to having seen the three girls, and the three girls described BG. The defense does not even bring this up in the Franks memo, so it is essentially uncontested fact at this point. That would mean that RA is aware of at least three people having seen him on the trail that day. Assuming he's the same one the girls saw (because the timing and descriptions line up), that means they also interacted with him (said hello), removing all doubt that they saw him.

Ergo, several people saw him on the trail, and he admits seeing them and having been seen by them.

MOO

 

[MiniMoo]

I’m aware of all this, but the point is even with that in consideration, I can’t think of a single serial murder with similar elements plus lingering at the crime scene close to home for an extended period.

The closest thing (and it actually is a very similar murder) was Westly Allan Dodds first murder:
-Double homicide
-Kids
-Knife
-Public park in (I think) broad daylight
-Relatively close to home

That was in a big urban area, I am unsure about witnesses, and while the crime wasn’t quick per se I don’t believe he lingered afterward. But it’s pretty close, and may also be a useful point of comparison because it was his first murder, rather than one after he was already “experienced”.

A word of warning: anyone unfamiliar with Dodd who is considering looking him up, his crimes are absolute nightmare fuel - proceed with caution.

Think I've come across Dodd's before when looking at true crime stories some years back, but as for cases like this one maybe not.

But there is one I vaguely recall that involved more than two children that happened in a park, field or off of a beach in broad daylight only not in the last decade or two - further back I believe.

It involved 4-6+ kids that were either all siblings or most were from the same family. I can't remember if it was a total stranger or someone known to them, but they never turned up at home for supper like they promised so their parents went to look for them and maybe a few neighbours. Their bodies were found quite quickly and all were together - each was bound I think. I can't remember how they died, but it was a gruesome discovery and quite violent.

This definitely happened in the USA not anywhere else - no rituals from memory.

I will try to find it, but I can't remember if it was a documentary I watched or a documentary followed up by reading more about it if I could find information.

 

[Megnut]

Prosecution estimated 7 days. Defense requested 15.

Which would make for the weirdest trial in all of history.

I think it was legal maneuvering. No way does a defense needs twice as long as a prosecution!

Proof will be in the trial pudding, when we see how long or short their defense is.

Notable they couldn't explain why they needed additional time.

I don't believe they believe they needed more time to present. I think they needed more time to prepare and this was a way to achieve thar. This way, the delay looks like the Court forced it.

We can't know. We can't call their bluff, but if the Judge did magically clear off an additional couple of weeks, I think the defense would have been forced, by morning, to ask for the continuance.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

From the crime scene, what is the journey to the farm building and/or the old CPS building, including the appearance along the road? Is there a path of any kind? Did he traipse through a forest? Must have been uber familiar with that place.

 

[Boxer]

Do you have something to link saying the FBI have had no involvement in the case with RA?

Someone here on the threads recently posted an article that said even though the FBI had scaled back their operation (because they got the right man IMO) they were still involved in the case.

Thanks

FBI is support. The local police decide whether to use them, if they have a lab - wait times etc.

 

[Boxer]

Which would make for the weirdest trial in all of history.

I think it was legal maneuvering. No way does a defense needs twice as long as a prosecution!

Proof will be in the trial pudding, when we see how long or short their defense is.

Notable they couldn't explain why they needed additional time.

I don't believe they believe they needed more time to present. I think they needed more time to prepare and this was a way to achieve thar. This way, the delay looks like the Court forced it.

We can't know. We can't call their bluff, but if the Judge did magically clear off an additional couple of weeks, I think the defense would have been forced, by morning, to ask for the continuance.

JMO

Money. They looked at it from an income point of view and forgot to develop a plausible reason why they needed twice the time.

Or the reason is presenting twice the words, use of words by the pound to confuse, bore and detach the jury.

 

[TTF14]

If the Judge won’t give them a FM hearing - which is just going to waste more time, still no guarantee the search would be ruled illegal - then Plan B is to get a new judge.

MO and JMO

RSBM

Is "that's just going to waste time" a reason to not hold hearings? It's very subjective, no? Is that the way things should be done?

IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

RA admits to having seen the three girls, and the three girls described BG. The defense does not even bring this up in the Franks memo, so it is essentially uncontested fact at this point. That would mean that RA is aware of at least three people having seen him on the trail that day. Assuming he's the same one the girls saw (because the timing and descriptions line up), that means they also interacted with him (said hello), removing all doubt that they saw him.

Ergo, several people saw him on the trail, and he admits seeing them and having been seen by them.

MOO

In my opinion, the descriptions do not line up.

 

[m00c0w]

In my opinion, the descriptions do not line up.

From the PCA:

RA told the conservation officer that "while at the Freedom Bridge he saw three females. He noted one was taller and had brown or black hair."

Of the 3 juvenile girls: "They were walking on the trail toward Freedom Bridge to go home when they encountered a male walking from Freedom Bridge toward the Monon High Bridge [...] and advised he was wearing 'like blue jeans a like really light blue jacket and his har was gray maybe a little brown and he did not really show his face.' She advised the jacket was a duck canvas type jacket."

On October 13, 2022, RA told investigators "he saw juvenile girls on the trails east of Freedom Bridge and that he went onto the Monon High Bridge. [...] He told investigators that he was wearing blue jeans and a blue or black Carhartt jacket with a hood."

I'm failing to see how these descriptions are inconsistent with each other. The defense has also not challenged any of this.

 

[sunshineray]

RA admits to having seen the three girls, and the three girls described BG. The defense does not even bring this up in the Franks memo, so it is essentially uncontested fact at this point. That would mean that RA is aware of at least three people having seen him on the trail that day. Assuming he's the same one the girls saw (because the timing and descriptions line up), that means they also interacted with him (said hello), removing all doubt that they saw him.

Ergo, several people saw him on the trail, and he admits seeing them and having been seen by them.

MOO

And then he puts himself on the first platform of the Monon High Bridge. He's seen on that first platform by BB. She then turns around and immediately upon walking back on the trail sees Abby and Libby approaching the bridge area she just left. Yet, RA sees neither BB or Abby and Libby. Just doesn't add up. Also, as he was walking with purpose towards the bridge and past 4 girls, a time stamped picture taken by one girl sets their sighting of RA. BB's Harvest Store video, coming and going, time stamps her seeing RA. Very convincing time frame evidence, IMO.

 

[Jade]

He didn't do a very good job of that by going to a conservation officer right after the crime to tell them he was there.

That is why he tipped in.

To be inconspicuous, to be dismissed from further statement. To not have to be contacted later, perhaps inconveniently in front of wife or work who probably didn’t know he was there at the time the girls were taken, if he was recognized as the CVS clerk.

It worked for a long time thanks to RA making sure he didn’t actually go across the street to the Sheriff’s office and give a real witness report in the proper setting lucking out with the dense CO in a parking lot.

Now it has all crashed down revealing he is a manipulative schemer.

all imo

 

[Willow Knight]

One shoe and a mobile phone.
Do you really think it was a mistake?

Wasn't the muddy/bloody man walking down the road seen around 4 PM? By 4 PM people could probably be heard calling out Abby and Libby's names. I'm certain the killing coward would have ran from the crime scene to the road as fast as his little feet could run.

 

[sunshineray]

I still believe that they will quit on him when they can’t delay anymore and realize that it’s going to trial and they ain’t ready.

I have seen nothing so far that convinces me they will be ready come October.

If you by "quit" that his lawyers would quit representing him right before trial, they would surely be disbarred, no? Maybe if they were both diagnosed as terminally ill, ok...but really anything else, no. They may though just change his plea, finally letting him officially confess as he has done 30+ times unofficially.
JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Not enough to bury itself in the ground though, right?

Has a gun been recovered with the same bullets and serial numbers because it is that that will put RA at the scene of the crime for sure if he is the owner and it wasn't reported stolen.

I wonder if they found the gun to that bullet.

It wasn't buried in the ground (digging an opening, putting it in and replacing dirt on top of it), it was embedded...as in something heavy was positioned on top of it and the weight of that pushed it into the top layer of dirt. There was probably leaves over it also. MO

 

[ClearAhead]

RSBM

Is "that's just going to waste time" a reason to not hold hearings? It's very subjective, no? Is that the way things should be done?

IMO MOO

If nothing was found in the search that was of significance, what’s the big deal? The P would list and introduce all the evidence found during the trial and it’d be getting yawn and a ho hum by the jury, typically the way things are done if none of its incriminating.

A FM hearing being granted that would not automatically result in the search being disallowed, only if at the end of it all the judge ruled accordingly. So yes IMO that would be a waste of time if the ruling did not go the way of the D. It would seem they’ve made several allegations and insinuations that LE had lied in the PCA but lack any solid proof. Certainly they’re aware of that yet they’re still so desperate to have the search disallowed. WHAT’s there that we don’t know about?

Mo and JMO

 

[al66pine]

IN. Concealed Carry Law. Permits, then & now?
One poster said - IN law does not require for permit for concealed carry of handgun.
But---

No permit for cc law changed July 1, 2022. Before that date a cc permit was needed.

@twall Thanks for your post. Agreeing w it re IN law itself as being correct.* As you said, IN law changed in 2022.
Back in 2017 a CC permit was required (w some exceptions) to carry concealed, that is to carry concealed LEGALLY.

IDK if RA had a concealed carry permit in 2017.
____________________________
• See Summary Table w links to IN. current law.
Gun laws in Indiana - Wikipedia
____________________________
@girlhasnoname @katydid23

 

[StarryStarryNight]

SBM sorry, I could have been more specific on this point.

Between the time stamp on Libby’s photo and the sighting of (presumably) BG walking down the road, he could have hung around the scene for up to an hour or longer.

Based on available info about the CS, staging, etc. what do you think is the minimum amount of time he could have been there in total?

(I am curious about people’s thoughts on this, as wasn’t it a point in the original FM that there “must” have been multiple perps bc one person “couldn’t” have done all that in that block of time?)

In any case I think that point in the Franks is BS and it easily could have been done alone by someone of RA’s physique in 20 minutes or so, but even if he hung around for 20 minutes instead of an hour I don’t think that changes the level of brazenness much at all.

This is how I see it.

The girls are accosted on the bridge per Libby’s video at 2:13pm.
It supposedly takes at least 15 minutes to get to the crime scene.
DG calls Libby to say he’s almost there at about 3:10pm.
So, RA has approximately 40 undisturbed minutes with the girls.
DG then begins not only calling and texting on his phone but walking the trails calling for the girls.
RA probably doesn’t stop what he’s doing for the early phone calls but once he hears DG calling the girls names he realizes he’s got to get out of there. So I would say at about 3:25pm RA begins panicking and rushing to set things up to feed his fantasy and hide the bodies.
By 3:35pm RA leaves the crime scene. Supposedly it takes about 15 minutes to walk up the steep slope to the cemetery to the road.
Where at 3:57pm a witness spots a man muddy and bloody walking along the road heading toward the old CPS building.
So, RA had 40 minutes undisturbed, 10 or 15 minutes while bothered by the phone ringing, and an additional 10 minutes straightening and cleaning things up. That seems like plenty of time for one man with a knife and gun to torture and kill the girls and destroy two families.

Opinion only

 

[sunshineray]

SBM sorry, I could have been more specific on this point.

Between the time stamp on Libby’s photo and the sighting of (presumably) BG walking down the road, he could have hung around the scene for up to an hour or longer.

Based on available info about the CS, staging, etc. what do you think is the minimum amount of time he could have been there in total?

(I am curious about people’s thoughts on this, as wasn’t it a point in the original FM that there “must” have been multiple perps bc one person “couldn’t” have done all that in that block of time?)

In any case I think that point in the Franks is BS and it easily could have been done alone by someone of RA’s physique in 20 minutes or so, but even if he hung around for 20 minutes instead of an hour I don’t think that changes the level of brazenness much at all.

I believe the time stamp of BG on the bridge image is 2:13pm. DG got to the trials somewhere around 3:15-ish. Depending on how long the march down the hill and across the creek took (5-10 mins?) and if DG's phone calling, the BP's, then DG mostly likely calling out to Libby...RA was probably with the girls maybe 35-40 mins?
If I'm wrong on the times, please correct me.

 

[sunshineray]

If it’s a mistrial hopefully he’d end up with a new judge.

And if a new judge preceded in the same manner as JG has, what then? Just curious if that would make you think differently about RA's attorneys?

 

[m00c0w]

This is how I see it.

The girls are accosted on the bridge per Libby’s video at 2:13pm.
It supposedly takes at least 15 minutes to get to the crime scene.
DG calls Libby to say he’s almost there at about 3:10pm.
So, RA has approximately 40 undisturbed minutes with the girls.
DG then begins not only calling and texting on his phone but walking the trails calling for the girls.
RA probably doesn’t stop what he’s doing for the early phone calls but once he hears DG calling the girls names he realizes he’s got to get out of there. So I would say at about 3:25pm RA begins panicking and rushing to set things up to feed his fantasy and hide the bodies.
By 3:35pm RA leaves the crime scene. Supposedly it takes about 15 minutes to walk up the steep slope to the cemetery to the road.
Where at 3:57pm a witness spots a man muddy and bloody walking along the road heading toward the old CPS building.
So, RA had 40 minutes undisturbed, 10 or 15 minutes while bothered by the phone ringing, and an additional 10 minutes straightening and cleaning things up. That seems like plenty of time for one man with a knife and gun to torture and kill the girls and destroy two families.

Opinion only

The fear of discovery also easily explains the weird situation regarding clothes being swapped, some clothes being ditched in the river, one victim being cleaned up while the other is not, items being left at the scene probably inadvertently (like the phone and unspent round). It's my opinion that the plan (whatever that ultimately was) was taking longer than anticipated, and it's also possible he did hear some commotion and realized he needed to scurry off quickly.

JMO