Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #195

[susiQ]

The gg may’ve been expensed long before RA’s arrest. It was an expense by LE related to the Delphi murder case, not RAs arrest.

RSBM
Well, if the $$ were spent prior to RA’s arrest, I would have to conclude that RA’s family tree did not show up. Firstly, it was not part of the PCA, secondly R & B have stated that there is no DNA evidence linking RA to the CS. As well, Tony L and JH testified to this fact during their individual depositions. Nada, nothing. RA’s DNA was not there. Period. But someone’s was. And since any family DNA would be discounted, it may be a mystery forever.
All MOO.
FM Pg 129

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

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[ClearAhead]

RSBM
And, some of us don’t quite get “imagining” that the P has some bombshell that will allow them to reach BARD. Is there a source that the P has some bombshell evidence they are going to spring on us at trial? It is repeated often here on these threads.

The truth is, we’re all here speculating on what we do know. The rest we must patiently wait for . MOO

Yes hopefully all the answers to what we don’t know now will become clear during the trial.

Frankly I don’t recall it suggested that the P has bombshell evidence, just that the PCA was the simply basis to RA’s arrest, nothing more. It was not intended to serve as a summary of the State’s case. They’ve been diligent in honouring the gag order by disclosing only as much as required in response to D motions. But anything further to that is unknown. MOO

 

[Spartygirl]

There was testimony regarding this from the hearings in July/August. I am looking for a link atm.

Ohh-- I hadn't heard of that before either and would like to see the link please.
I always believe the FBI was behind most of that presser and helped construct it.

 

[susiQ]

Yes hopefully all the answers to what we don’t know now will become clear during the trial.

Frankly I don’t recall it suggested that the P has bombshell evidence, just that the PCA was the simply basis to RA’s arrest, nothing more. It was not intended to serve as a summary of the State’s case. They’ve been diligent in honouring the gag order by disclosing only as much as required in response to D motions. But anything further to that is unknown. MOO

Granted, the word “bombshell” is overstating it, but I have read enough on these threads where it is asserted, and rather confidently at that, that the P has SO much more than what’s in the PCA. Well, I’m not convinced in the least that that is the case. If this were in fact “fact” the D would know it and they wouldn’t be telling everyone that their client is innocent. Oh yes, that’s what ALL defense attorneys do, I know! But, I without a doubt believe they mean it. Lebrato meant it. They do not believe RA killed A & L. In Lebrato’s case, you could hear it in his voice, see it in his eyes and general demeanour during this interview with BM. It was palpable. IMO

My hope is that the truth will be exposed and the real killers will be brought to justice. I’m not certain that will or can happen. The evil ones that did what they did to those poor girls that day are a special kind of evil. Empty vessels. No feelings of guilt or remorse. Wouldn’t lose a night’s sleep over what they did. IMO

As often is the case on these threads, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

All MOO

 

[sunshineray]

Because, MOO, they are keeping some discovery close to the vest, like the P is.

Ok, well that would be a first for this DT, if true. MO

 

[sunshineray]

I don't have any hypothetical person in mind. The odd IMO end to the last hearing is basis for speculation; plus learning about the genetic genealogy testing opens up more questions.

Discovery is still coming in; why do you think there is nothing left that might be beneficial to RA?

Actually, I'm still stuck at the beginning. If no one saw RA's vehicle at the old building after 2:30 pm, how is the P going to prove the timeline? Then there is the time of death issue. I sure hope they can pinpoint it to 3:45 or earlier.

That would be after 1:30pm right? That's when RA is now saying he left...not 2:30pm

 

[sunshineray]

If the DNA analyzed through genetic genealogy doesn't match RA or anyone in his family/familial lines, do you think he should be exonerated?

Depends where the DNA was found and on what.

 

[sunshineray]

I know next to nothing about that kind of testing. I'm looking for information detailing why gg was used. The amount of money they spent indicates to me that there was more than one person tested. Why? They charged RA with the murders; surely he was the very first one tested.

Yes, a vehicle similar to RA's was seen passing the HHS cam. The timeline needs an ending, too.
MOO

I've posted this many times. Back in December 2018 LE sent DNA evidence to be tested at Quantico.

“We sent more evidence to the FBI at Quantico just before Christmas,” Sheriff Leazenby told RadarOnline.com in an exclusive interview and said they were doing “DNA testing research,” with regards to the case."

Break In Indiana Teens' Murder: Cops Give More Evidence To FBI In Hunt For Killer

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told RadarOnline.com exclusively that they were hoping for a break in the case of Indiana teens Abigail Williams and Liberty German’s gruesome murders after they sent new evidence to the FBI headquarters in Quantico.

radaronline.com

 

[sunshineray]

RSBM
And, some of us don’t quite get “imagining” that the P has some bombshell that will allow them to reach BARD. Is there a source that the P has some bombshell evidence they are going to spring on us at trial? It is repeated often here on these threads.

The truth is, we’re all here speculating on what we do know. The rest we must patiently wait for . MOO

I'd call 61+ confessions and dozens more incriminating statements...with crime details...quite bombshell with the possibility of being nuclear in front of a jury. JMO

 

[somequestions]

Granted, the word “bombshell” is overstating it, but I have read enough on these threads where it is asserted, and rather confidently at that, that the P has SO much more than what’s in the PCA. Well, I’m not convinced in the least that that is the case. If this were in fact “fact” the D would know it and they wouldn’t be telling everyone that their client is innocent. Oh yes, that’s what ALL defense attorneys do, I know! But, I without a doubt believe they mean it. Lebrato meant it. They do not believe RA killed A & L. In Lebrato’s case, you could hear it in his voice, see it in his eyes and general demeanour during this interview with BM. It was palpable. IMO

My hope is that the truth will be exposed and the real killers will be brought to justice. I’m not certain that will or can happen. The evil ones that did what they did to those poor girls that day are a special kind of evil. Empty vessels. No feelings of guilt or remorse. Wouldn’t lose a night’s sleep over what they did. IMO

As often is the case on these threads, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

All MOO

It would have helped quiet a lot of the talk of innocence had LE wrote a better PCA. In my opinion, that PCA was very weak and not what I was expecting from a 5-and-a-half-year murder investigation. Its timing is also suspicious, right before an election.

Since it seems like Richard Allen is doing whatever he can to help prosecute the Delphi case, the lack of factual evidence in the PCA may not matter if the jury believes the confessions are real and genuine. There also is the unspent cartridge with the toolmark striations that LE says match up to the ejector from his gun. On the off chance the prosecution does not have much more than what they put in the PCA, it still might not matter due to the confessions.

There are so many interesting questions about Richard Allen and his guilt. Why does someone drive their car past the Hoosier Harvest Store surveillance camera to park, but only then remember the surveillance camera is there in that location on their walk back to their vehicle after committing murder while walking around in wet pants and muddy shoes and clothing? Is it possible based on the timing of the walk back that he could have walked on the actual Monon High bridge trail all the way back to his car after the murders without being seen by Liberty German's father or flannel shirt guy? This would explain him not being seen on the Hoosier Harvest Store surveillance camera. Is this why he went to the conservation officer after the crime, because he figured that LE would be looking for any vehicles coming and going from the Monon High Bridge trail area since in order to go there and be able to leave the area quickly, you need to use a vehicle?

From Court TV illustrations, it looked like the sticks and branches on Abigail Williams and Liberty German's bodies were placed on their bodies. Usually when people take time to do something like this, there is a reason. Was it really just an attempt to cover the bodies?

This case has a lot of unanswered questions that will hopefully be answered by the evidence presented by both the prosecution and the defense at the trial.

 

[shonyakay]

IMO he probably has. I doubt his DT would be forthcoming with that information however.

Your reply to the OP in regards to RA possibly confessing to his attorney's.....

That is why I personally could never be a defense attorney. If someone told me that they did what was done to those girls, I could never defend that. Let alone try to blame others for it that you know had nothing at all to do with it.

 

[shonyakay]

Actually, I'm still stuck at the beginning. If no one saw RA's vehicle at the old building after 2:30 pm, how is the P going to prove the timeline? Then there is the time of death issue. I sure hope they can pinpoint it to 3:45 or earlier.

Similar vehicles were described by witnesses. Keep in mind, at the time the witnesses seen what the did, they had no clue two girls would go missing and eventually found murdered. Would the witnesses really pay attention to every detail, before they learned of the crime, or just give general descriptions?

 

[Soulmagent]

Depends where the DNA was found and on what.

Interesting.. what ever could you possibly mean ?
J/K I have guessed a bit. Dont tell me ..yet.

 

[shonyakay]

I know next to nothing about that kind of testing. I'm looking for information detailing why gg was used. The amount of money they spent indicates to me that there was more than one person tested. Why? They charged RA with the murders; surely he was the very first one tested.

Yes, a vehicle similar to RA's was seen passing the HHS cam. The timeline needs an ending, too.
MOO

I can't wait to hear about the data regarding RA's phone. Was it in use at the time he claims he was checking a stock ticker on the trail? If not, why lie about that? When exactly was it in use that day?
Did RA have an apple iPhone? Did Apple health record the movement of his phone like it did Libby's?

I believe the murders occurred between 2:14:34 when the BG video ended and when the movement of Libby's phone stopped at 2:32 p.m.

Libby's phone was found under Abby's body. Abby didn't have blood flow patterns indicating she was moved after her fatal injury.

SC saw the disheveled man walking on 300 N shortly before 4:00 p.m.

What a coincidence that Dulin's report states that RA was on the trails 1:30 - 3:30 p.m. before most if not all of the above information was learned.

How is the defense going to explain that?

 

[shonyakay]

RSBM
And, some of us don’t quite get “imagining” that the P has some bombshell that will allow them to reach BARD. Is there a source that the P has some bombshell evidence they are going to spring on us at trial? It is repeated often here on these threads.

The truth is, we’re all here speculating on what we do know. The rest we must patiently wait for . MOO

That assumption comes from how LE kept everything very close to the vest in this case, the prosecution obeying the gag order, and the testimony/remarks made at the hearings imo.

 

[shonyakay]

From Court TV illustrations, it looked like the sticks and branches on Abigail Williams and Liberty German's bodies were placed on their bodies. Usually when people take time to do something like this, there is a reason. Was it really just an attempt to cover the bodies?

Didn't Court TV create that illustration solely based on comments in the FM? Yeah, I think I will wait for trial to hear exactly what is testified to in regards to the sticks and position of the bodies.

 

[shonyakay]

Ohh-- I hadn't heard of that before either and would like to see the link please.
I always believe the FBI was behind most of that presser and helped construct it.

I haven't forgotten. I will post when I locate it.

 

[mrjitty]

TMS recently went over this decision by JG on their most recent episode. I just listened to it and found it interesting.
They point out that it was very unconventional for defense to try to suppress 61 separate confessions for being “coerced” or “involuntary”. Especially given many of his confessions were offered when the receiving party had resisted hearing them.

They said a more conventional ( and most likely effective IMO) argument for suppressing confessions would be mental duress or psychosis.

TMS theorize the defense team could not present the argument that RA confessed during psychosis because it is unfounded and false.

This would make sense to me IMO because it would explain why a highly praised defense team would file such a weak motion. JMO
The Delphi Murders: The Confessions Are In

I heard this theory as well but I guess I am sceptical

I wonder if they simply lack any foundational evidence for their psychosis argument. The only doctor we heard from was Dr Wala, who they called, but also is in part a hostile witness for them (confession testimony). If they didn't get RA examined at the time, then maybe they felt they just couldn't prove it.

However at trial, they can raise this which goes to the weight the jury gives the confessions. I agree this is way less good than excluding them in the first place.

I also haven't seen the legal argument for why a "psychosis like condition" makes the confessions involuntary instead of just unreliable. The arguments may exist but the D apparently didn't make that argument. Is it a thing? I don't know.

MOO

 

[Salah11]

RA isn’t innocent. The man doesn’t even have an alibi for the time of the murder. That's quite telling when you weigh up all the other things pointing towards his guilt.

 

[mrjitty]

Because, MOO, they are keeping some discovery close to the vest, like the P is.

What would be the purpose? The prosecution already know what all the discovery is.

Or do you mean they are trying to keep their trial strategy on the DL?