Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[Willow Knight]

To me, it reads as a bit like a threat to hold jury members hostage if they don’t get their way.

jmo

Exactly the way I took it.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I feel this is a bit exaggerated, but maybe someone can jump in on the procedural side?

Most of the Indiana cases I read on this SODDI issues are all post trial appeals, so this route is fairly normal. Also the D already presented all it's evidence on this matter for the hearing, so I presume all of this content can just be adopted without calling the witnesses yet again?

I don't know how "offer of proof" works

Defense team has a flair for exaggeration, imo.

 

[Tealgrove]

To me, it reads as a bit like a threat to hold jury members hostage if they don’t get their way.

jmo

The last thing you want to do is piss off the people that are deciding your fate.

I might think twice about employing this tactic if I was trying to get my client a “get out of jail free card”.

MOO

 

[photographer4]

A lot of blood-splatter analysis has been proven false. Mostly, because of bad actors, like Deaver in the M Peterson case 'The Staircase': Who Is Duane Deaver and Where Is He Now?

Just because we see people using exaggerated statements/theatrics, like Henry Lee and his ketchup bubbles on the stand, it does not invalidate basic science like - blood bubbles that contain air, flow of blood, blood volume etc. This has been a topic argued in many cases in the early 2010s and mostly put to bed. As with all forensics, there are cases where the science has been misrepresented. That does not invalidate the whole field.

All MOO

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting it invalidates the entire field. I was merely offering some background information on the subject as a whole, and a view that there is evidence for it, and against it.

 

[tlcya]

A lot of blood-splatter analysis has been proven false. Mostly, because of bad actors, like Deaver in the M Peterson case 'The Staircase': Who Is Duane Deaver and Where Is He Now?

Just because we see people using exaggerated statements/theatrics, like Henry Lee and his ketchup bubbles on the stand, it does not invalidate basic science like - blood bubbles that contain air, flow of blood, blood volume etc. This has been a topic argued in many cases in the early 2010s and mostly put to bed. As with all forensics, there are cases where the science has been misrepresented. That does not invalidate the whole field.

All MOO

I know who I see making exaggerated statements in the three day hearing and it wasn't the BPA expert. JMO

Perlmutter has literally built a career in criminology using her two art degrees and a public's insatiable need to believe in the boogyman. MOO JMO

 

[Knitty]

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[m00c0w]

I’ve seen it mentioned several times here that TOD is not mentioned on the Autopsy Reports. Since the Autopsy Reports have not been released publicly I’m wondering where this is coming from.

Is there a link to this information or is this rumour?

TIA

I have only seen it vaguely mentioned by people that were at the hearings, nothing specific. Some folks here have repeated the claims and my requests for substantiation have gone unanswered. Largely, I simply doubt the actual substance of the claim even though it may be factual on its face. (eg It may be true there was not a specific time of death in the autopsy report as no one witnessed the murders; there is probably an estimation and time range, but that’s not the question that was asked).

As I’ve pointed out before, there is a substantial time difference between the prosecution’s theory and defense’s theory. It should be trivial to actually put this to bed when we escape the innuendo game in pre-trial shenanigans.

All my opinion.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I’ve seen it mentioned several times here that TOD is not mentioned on the Autopsy Reports. Since the Autopsy Reports have not been released publicly I’m wondering where this is coming from.

Is there a link to this information or is this rumour?

TIA

This post shows the origin:
Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #190'
Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #190

 

[m00c0w]

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting it invalidates the entire field. I was merely offering some background information on the subject as a whole, and a view that there is evidence for it, and against it.

I guess my thing is that Cicero’s testimony wasn’t really all that crazy. Were there pools of blood? That’s something pretty factual. Was blood soaked into clothing that the defense claimed was largely bloodless? Again, that’s just fact. His expertise in this subject was to debunk the idea than an F or rune was painted on the tree. Even if you throw out that part of the testimony, the actual facts that were revealed are completely contrary to narratives the defense has pushed in court filings. The defense basically went as far as they could towards lying without actually lying.

All my opinion.

 

[tlcya]

This post shows the origin:
Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #190'
Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #190

thanks for tracking that down. reporter notes that say "Baldwin says". Got it.

 

[Megnut]

thanks for tracking that down. reporter notes that say "Baldwin says". Got it.

In addition, it might be SOP for that official to document TOD differently, not into notes but directly into a report. IMO TOD isn't an observation, it's a conclusion. And, as such, wouldn't be in the notes but would be the culmination of them. In other words, upon review of the notes (the totality of the autopsy as anotated, the TOD will be IMO a range. Based on multiple data points and professional experience/expertise.

That it's not in the notes doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or even that there's anything amiss!

JMO

 

[photographer4]

I guess my thing is that Cicero’s testimony wasn’t really all that crazy. Were there pools of blood? That’s something pretty factual. Was blood soaked into clothing that the defense claimed was largely bloodless? Again, that’s just fact. His expertise in this subject was to debunk the idea than an F or rune was painted on the tree. Even if you throw out that part of the testimony, the actual facts that were revealed are completely contrary to narratives the defense has pushed in court filings. The defense basically went as far as they could towards lying without actually lying.

All my opinion.

I haven’t read his testimony yet so I offer no opinion on it, nor on the validity or lack thereof in filings from the D.

 

[Salah11]

Brace yourself. The next conspiracy theory is likely to be that the girls were killed prior to February 13th. It's absurd and I hate the thought that there are people that will try to push this idea, but it is out there.
If the D feels strongly enough that they can raise that doubt with even a single juror, I could see them using it.

JMO

So insulting towards the families that they would make up a entire plot.

IMO

 

[tlcya]

In addition, it might be SOP for that official to document TOD differently, not into notes but directly into a report. IMO TOD isn't an observation, it's a conclusion. And, as such, wouldn't be in the notes but would be the culmination of them. In other words, upon review of the notes (the totality of the autopsy as anotated, the TOD will be IMO a range. Based on multiple data points and professional experience/expertise.

That it's not in the notes doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or even that there's anything amiss!

JMO

yep, I will have to wait for trial to know how the TODs were arrived at. But I have followed enough murder cases to know there is very real and long established science involved in how that conclusion is reached.

 

[statt#1]

I think the trial may be halted at the start anyhow, as the D said in their appeal, they plan to provide their offer of proof to the judge to allow the SODDI defense. They said the jury may have to sit and wait it out for days.

View attachment 530818

Wow! This reads like an either/or....Either rule in favor, or the jury will wait, possibly for days. Funny thing is, if the 'offer of proof' isn't conclusive, then what happens?

MOO, the whole statement sounds somewhat threatening, ouch! Give me my candy, or I'll throw a fit

 

[Megnut]

yep, I will have to wait for trial to know how the TODs were arrived at. But I have followed enough murder cases to know there is very real and long established science involved in how that conclusion is reached.

Yup. And it's not reached during the autopsy but after it. Based on the information derived from it.

Likely another artful dodge of fact by the Defense. Pretend there's a loose end or important gap but again IMO TOD is determined when the autopsy report is drafted, upon review of notes/memory.

They may well try to argue and elaborate it at trial too, if there is TOD and presumably one disfavorable to their client. IMO they'll challenge the report/author -- and suggest there's something nefarious about it not being in the notes and showing up only in the report (if I'm reading the situation correctly). I think this is how they'll manage their defense, by trying to poke imaginary holes in insignificant places in the hopes of inventing significance.

The Prosecution IMO will clean that up.

JMO

 

[Seattle1]

Wow! This reads like an either/or....Either rule in favor, or the jury will wait, possibly for days. Funny thing is, if the 'offer of proof' isn't conclusive, then what happens?

MOO, the whole statement sounds somewhat threatening, ouch! Give me my candy, or I'll throw a fit

In that case, seems to me that the defense still preserved their rights for appeal, post conviction. JMO

 

[Seattle1]

Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen's motion for appeal denied; trial starts Oct. 14

Special Judge Frances Gull denied Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen's request for an interlocutory appeal at the Indiana Appeals Court.

www.jconline.com

9/12/24

"Trial remains set October 14, 2024 - November 15, 2024, with jury selection being conducted in Allen County, Indiana, and trial being conducted in Carroll County, Indiana," according to Gull's order published online on Wednesday.

Gull ruled last week that Allen's defense team will not be allowed to present evidence to jurors that Libby German and Abby Williams were killed in a ritual sacrifice by Odinists, not by Allen. Gull also ruled last month that jurors can hear Allen's admissions to prison officials and other inmates that he killed the teens on Feb. 13, 2017.

 

[Seattle1]

https://fox59.com/indiana-news/delphi-murders-trial-to-still-begin-in-october-after-court-denies-richard-allens-appeal-request/

9/12/24

DELPHI, Ind. — The Oct. 14 date for the Delphi double murder trial of Richard Allen remains intact after the court denied the defense’s request for an appeal Wednesday.

After concerns that a recently filed appeal request may once again delay the trial’s start date, the Court confirmed Wednesday the trial will continue as scheduled after the request was denied. Allen’s attorneys wanted Judge Fran Gull to certify recent rulings so they could appeal the ruling to the Indiana Court of Appeals.

 

[tlcya]

meh. I am not at all concerned. The DT has no further proof to support 3rd party defense. If they had it would have been submitted in the 3 day hearing. This most recent request for Interlocutory Appeal is simply them getting on the record AGAIN that they don't think JG is being fair for appeal purposes. It is going to get them nowhere and IMO opinion this will not leave jurors sitting in hotel rooms tapping their toes. The DT IMO do not intend to introduce anything new or compelling during trial that will suddenly make their "evidence" admissible and get the SODDIs back in.