Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[FrostedGlass]

The reason they don't count is relative lack of acceleration.

I've tested this by accident several times, by going for a run, forgetting to stop the activity, and then driving in the car. The GPS sees you move, so you record high velocity and distance, but with no steps.

There are other ways to show this. e.g when i walk, wheeling my bike with my watch hand (which also counts steps), i get no steps because my arm is fixed on the bike handles.

Ditto riding on bike, mostly does not generate steps.

IMO

Do you agree with me that when your step tracker stops tracking your steps, you can be still moving?

 

[mrjitty]

This is perhaps even easier to understand with apple watch / garmin / fitbit etc

Say you are moving at a steady 5 kph walking speed - there is no acceleration for the watch to measure.

But now factor in your regular gait with arms swinging sharply forwards and then back relative to your centre of mass. There is now a sharp acceleration forward and deceleration backwards every second. The tech understands that as a step.

You can do this by sitting and swinging your arms with your watch or iphone - it will probably 'see' steps

So the problem for this theory is there are no more steps ever. So that requires device off - but where is the device off log event?

It's obviously much more likely the device was never off.

I do wonder if we will discover there is a device off log later in the morning before they were found (flat battery). And was the device found on or off?

The other thing is there may be onboard logged events between the bridge guy video and the 4am messages which indicate phone was on.

None of these things require any expert opinion - just think about how your own phone works.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Do you agree with me that when your step tracker stops tracking your steps, you can be still moving?

Yes - i outlined several examples of it. e.g biking.

However if you are moving, your GPS location data is seeing that.

IMO it is on the defence to show who any of this can possibly work. But i am not personally taking it seriously unless there is at least one piece of circumstantial evidence that suggests a second location. So far I heard nothing.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Yes - i outlined several examples of it. e.g biking.

However if you are moving, your GPS location data is seeing that.

IMO it is on the defence to show who any of this can possibly work. But i am not personally taking it seriously unless there is at least one piece of circumstantial evidence that suggests a second location. So far I heard nothing.

Thank you. The part I bolded was the only point I was trying to make.

 

[Salah11]

The forensics would have tracked their walk from the bridge to the murder site and how many steps were taken. So add that in with all the blood pooling and the mark Libby left on the tree all points to them dying there.

It’s funny how all the evidence suggests this but as RA doesn’t have a alibi his team are trying to peddle lies without any proof and move the crime scene.

moo

 

[mrjitty]

The forensics would have tracked their walk from the bridge to the murder site and how many steps were taken. So add that in with all the blood pooling and the mark Libby left on the tree all points to them dying there.

It’s funny how all the evidence suggests this but as RA doesn’t have a alibi his team are trying to peddle lies without any proof.

moo

IMO for this speculative theory to have any legs at all, you need a phone off log before 3pm, and a phone on log in the middle of the night. Then you have one solid piece of circumstantial evidence a living person was at the crime scene late that night, and that the phone could have been moved in the interim.

But even that does not prove the bodies ever moved. You have to speculate that part.

 

[sunshineray]

Someone should check out how L's step counter worked in 2017.

I have an Android phone with two step-counter apps. Just because my phone stops counting my steps is absolutely no indication that I've stopped moving. I walk out to my vehicle, it counts my steps, I sit down in my vehicle, it stops counting my steps. Same thing for getting out and walking back up to my home. Between getting into and out of my vehicle, I could have traveled for hours and my counters don't move.

In RA's case, how would Libby's phone then get back to the scene and under a victim's body? It's not like the crime scene can be driven right up to in a car?

I'm really trying to understand the rational behind the theory of girl's being brought offsite and then back again. It was an active search zone. Why would a killer chance coming back? Why not just drive the bodies somewhere remote where they might not have been found so quickly, ensuring the evidence on their bodies would be degraded?

 

[Salah11]

Also the sticks point to the bodies being left in daylight. He used them to try and cover the bodies.

If it was the middle of the night he wouldn’t have to go to such lengths.

IMO

 

[mrjitty]

In RA's case, how would Libby's phone then get back to the scene and under a victim's body? It's not like the crime scene can be driven right up to in a car?

I'm really trying to understand the rational behind the theory of girl's being brought offsite and then back again. It was an active search zone. Why would a killer chance coming back? Why not just drive the bodies somewhere remote where they might not have been found so quickly, ensuring the evidence on their bodies would be degraded?

The good news is the defence isn't allowed to put the conspiracies that go with these theories to the jury anymore. So they have to hope there is a juror or two who is highly invested in these back stories

 

[FrostedGlass]

In RA's case, how would Libby's phone then get back to the scene and under a victim's body? It's not like the crime scene can be driven right up to in a car?

I'm really trying to understand the rational behind the theory of girl's being brought offsite and then back again. It was an active search zone. Why would a killer chance coming back? Why not just drive the bodies somewhere remote where they might not have been found so quickly, ensuring the evidence on their bodies would be degraded?

As for your first question, if they were taken by car to somewhere, her phone would have stopped tracking her steps. When they were brought back and got out of the car, the tracker would have begin tracking her steps again.

Just for the record, Cecil was asked if he measured any of those steps and he answered: "No." He wasn't aware of an access road. The D has a hand-drawn map of where those steps could have taken the girl; it's an exhibit.

There is very little about this case that feels rational to me so I can't answer any of your other questions.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

The good news is the defence isn't allowed to put the conspiracies that go with these theories to the jury anymore. So they have to hope there is a juror or two who is highly invested in these back stories

And with the swamp of youtubers out there living on the DT's shenanigans for the past two years, they may have a shot at that. MO

 

[FrostedGlass]

The good news is the defence isn't allowed to put the conspiracies that go with these theories to the jury anymore. So they have to hope there is a juror or two who is highly invested in these back stories

IMO
The job of the defense is to poke holes in the P's case. Any of the P's witnesses that they can discredit is a step in the right direction for them. Is there a possibility that Nick will decide to not call some of their witnesses? Maybe...

 

[ClearAhead]

It is that last sentence that troubles me the most about his mental health issues. And really, how many other “socially unacceptable behaviours” could they possibly have been talking about?

Excellent point! What’s left that’s not listed?

 

[mrjitty]

IMO
The job of the defense is to poke holes in the P's case. Any of the P's witnesses that they can discredit is a step in the right direction for them. Is there a possibility that Nick will decide to not call some of their witnesses? Maybe...

Sure

Like they will be able to say "hey someone must have been there messing with the phone in the middle of the night" which could help RA if he has an alibi for that time.

And maybe they can still look at the crime scene and speculate it was not the work of one man.

But IMO it gets hard to claim they were taken in a car to a secret location Franks style because the narrative that helped with all of that is no longer admissible.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

This is just a summary of his testimony on the 2nd day. I can’t think of any other reason to subpoena employment records other than to attempt to embarrass and discredit witness testimony.

https://www.wane.com/news/indiana/delphi-murders-case-attorneys-argue-where-richard-allen-should-be-held-more-motions/

Former Westville warden’s testimony​

The defense said the overall psychological environment at Westville Correctional Facility led Allen to say things he otherwise wouldn’t have.

John Galipeau, who was warden at Westville when Allen was there, testified that he heard Allen make a verbal confession through his cell, and he allegedly heard Allen name the girls in that statement. In a separate instance, the warden said Allen gave him a letter stating he wanted to confess, and the warden turned that letter over to internal affairs at the facility.

The defense argued the conditions in which Allen was being housed at Westville were wrongful considering he hasn’t been convicted of a crime.

The warden testified that Allen’s environment at Westville wasn’t worse than other inmates in the maximum security unit, where Allen was being held for safekeeping to protect him as the defendant.

In fact, the warden said Allen was actually given accommodations others in his Restricted Housing area of the prison would not have: he was allowed family visits, and a broken tablet Allen had was replaced without him having to pay for it. A scratched window in his cell was also replaced, which workers wouldn’t typically be obligated to do. The warden also claimed Allen was offered a TV – standard at the facility – but he declined.

The warden also claimed Allen was offered a TV – standard at the facility – but he declined.

That^^ surprises me. If you are locked in a boring cell most of your time, why wouldn't you want a tv? You don't have to watch it much but to be able to watch a ball game or a funny show occasionally would be a nice respite, for me anyway.

 

[katydid23]

They are going to question the TOD heavily at the trial IMO, the state is using the phones movements to create the TOD while there wasn’t one listed on the autopsy or medical examiner reports.

If they can bring reasonable doubt to the TOD they can create an alibi for RA and it would also break others alibis.

IMO

I am pretty sure the ME will have a TOD for their trial testimony. IMO

 

[katydid23]

Yes, the search was offically called of overnight. Didn't a lot of searchers continue searching though? I vaguely remember, some show, maybe on the Oxygen Network, where the local Fire Dept man saying he was called to bring in lights overnight? I think the Sheriff was also in that show and mentioned some continued searching through the night? Does that ring a bell with anyone?

My point would be the same as yours, what killer(s) would return to the scene of the abduction, that has people still actively searching it, to bring back either dead bodies or live victims to kill them there? That wouldn't make any sense to me. I also don't think the blood evidence would back up that scenario. AJMO

Absolutely. There were a lot of friends and family and first responders that stayed throughout the night. Many were walking around by flashlight. Some were in vehicles in the various parking lots, cruising slowly looking for any evidence of the girls nearby. Also, there were some patrol cars in the parking lot all night, holding the scene.

MAP: Where the two bodies were found near Delphi

The two teen girls were last seen by family around 1 p.m. Monday when they dropped them off near theMononHigh Bridge, an abandoned railroad bridge.

www.wrtv.com

Search resumes​

The search was called off around Midnight, although volunteers remained searching throughout the night. Crews returned the next morning to search for Libby & Abby along Deer Creek and further out from the trail

 

[ClearAhead]

All in all, unless the D has a witness who can say the bodies were not there, I don't take this one at all seriously. And if they did have that witness, why was s/he not at the motion in limine hearing? Would you really save this witness for later while you whole case burns to the ground?

MOO

Even if the D had a witness who was involved in the search and said the bodies weren’t there, depending on the topography of the ground where the bodies were placed and how many branches they were covered with, it’s possible they just weren’t sighted in the darkness. By all accounts the search teams were mainly scouting the trails and river, searching upstream wasn’t a priority since the girls were only presumed to be lost. MOO

 

[katydid23]

Do we know if his wife was away around the time of the murders? I remember it was mentioned on the threads but I couldn't find it.

Because if that's the case I can understand why the DT wants to keep Dr Wala's testimony of dependency out of the trial. IMO

Yes, her brother had recently died in a motorcycle accident. She was going out of state during that time ,quite often, to help her mother deal with that tragedy. IMO

 

[katydid23]

The D is not denying RA’s battle with mental health. I’m not clear why they would state he was “cut off” from the moral support of his wife, mother and daughter. Their latest story just blamed his ‘solitary confinement’ as it was confirmed communication with his family was allowed. “grossly disorganized, delusional, paranoid and highly dysfunctional behavior”…..yikes, that’s quite an apt description of dependency. JMO

BBM

https://wgntv.com/news/indiana/richard-allen-reportedly-made-confessions-to-inmates-guards-attorneys-say-he-was-in-state-of-psychosis/

“The allegedly poor conditions he was kept in exacerbated Allen’s mental health conditions, according to his attorneys. According to them, Allen has “battled depression throughout most of his adult life.”….

Already suffering from a bona fide mental health disorder, and then having been cut off from the moral support of his wife, mother, and daughter,

How was he 'cut off' from them when he had his own tablet which could call or text them any time he wanted to?

Allen was weakened to the point where he slipped into a state of psychosis plagued with grossly disorganized, delusional, paranoid and highly dysfunctional behavior.

Yikes, that all sounds kind of 'murdery' doesn't it?

These behaviors were manifested through verbal confessions that he may have been drugged, verbal confessions to the double homicide (inconsistent with known facts about the crime scene) periods of not sleeping for days, paranoia, stripping off his clothes, drinking toilet water, covering himself with and eating his own feces, and many other socially unacceptable behaviors.”

BRADLEY ROZZI, ATTORNEY FOR RICHARD ALLEN